Is atheism a belief?

[Augustus]

The word literally means "not theist".

The major flaw in this argument is that it also literally means 'belief in no gods' - athe(os)-ism - and this actually better reflects the etymology.

Define atheism how you like, but the 'argument from letters' is a terrible 'proof' for your preferred definition as it either is a) irrelevant to establishing meaning [the correct answer ] b) a stalemate as it supports both equally, or c) better supports the definition you are arguing against due to etymology.

 

[ArtieE]

The major flaw in this argument is that it also literally means 'belief in no gods' - athe(os)-ism - and this actually better reflects the etymology.

Define atheism how you like

"The words "atheism" and "atheist" originated from the Ancient Greek word "ἄθεος"4 ("átheos") meaning "without deities"21 without any direct or implied anti-theistic (or anti-religious) connotation31, for it was (and still is) impartial in its initially intended use " ⚙ Define atheism :: Etymology

 

[Augustus]

"The words "atheism" and "atheist" originated from the Ancient Greek word "ἄθεος"4 ("átheos") meaning "without deities"21 without any direct or implied anti-theistic (or anti-religious) connotation31, for it was (and still is) impartial in its initially intended use " ⚙ Define atheism :: Etymology

Which supports what I was saying: Although "atheism" is sometimes assumed to be derived from the word "theism," it actually predates it.

So the word was never coined to mean 'not theism', it was coined as an -ism (a point of belief), not as the negation of an existing -ism (i.e. without theism). The argument that it 'literally means' without theism is specious despite being endlessly and uncritically parroted on atheist sites.

The 'lack of belief' definition was only popularised in the 1980s, and so obviously does not reflect the traditional etymology of the term. It was a modern redefinition of an existing word. There is nothing per-se wrong with this, but it does render the specific argument you are making nonsensical. There are reasonable arguments you can make to promote your personal preference, why focus on the worst possible one of them?

As I said, define atheism how you like as word meanings may change over time, but the 'argument from letters' is a terrible 'proof' for your preferred definition as it either is a) irrelevant to establishing meaning b) a stalemate as it supports both equally, or c) better supports the definition you are arguing against due to etymology.

 

[ArtieE]

So the word was never coined to mean 'not theism'

What is it with "it was (and still is) impartial in its initially intended use" you don't understand? You are the one who has redifined a word that originally only meant "without gods" to "believing no gods exist" even contrary to what the original prefix a- means.

"In early Ancient Greek, the adjective atheos (from privative α- + θεος "god") meant "godless". The word acquired an additional meaning in the 5th Century BCE, severing relations with the gods; that is, "denying the gods, ungodly"
Atheism

 

[Augustus]

What is it with "it was (and still is) impartial in its initially intended use" you don't understand? You are the one who has redifined a word that originally only meant "without gods" to "believing in no gods" even contrary to what the original prefix a- means.

1. What some random atheist site says on the internet is not the supreme arbiter of etymological truth
2. Even if it was, it doesn't support your argument as you have misread it. Try reading the whole sentence and you might notice it doesn't say what you think it does: The words "atheism" and "atheist" originated from the Ancient Greek word "ἄθεος"4 ("átheos") meaning "without deities"21 without any direct or implied anti-theistic (or anti-religious) connotation31, for it was (and still is) impartial in its initially intended use

The 'lack of belief' definition is the modern one, not the traditional one. It's not that difficult a point to grasp surely?

 

[ArtieE]

The 'lack of belief' definition is the modern one, not the traditional one. It's not that difficult a point to grasp surely?

Here is the Wictionary definition of atheos.
ἄθεος - Wiktionary
Here is without Gods, to refuse to accept Gods, not acknowledging any deity or god; without belief in any deity or god, abandoned by the Gods. Curiously, there's no "believes gods don't exist".

 

[Augustus]

Here is the Wictionary definition of atheos.
ἄθεος - Wiktionary
Here is without Gods, to refuse to accept Gods, not acknowledging any deity or god; without belief in any deity or god, abandoned by the Gods. Curiously, there's no "believes gods don't exist".

You seem to have forgotten that we are discussing the word atheism. This is atheos + -ism.

So what does -ism mean?

Seeing as wiktionary is your preferred oracle : An ideology, system of thought, or practice that can be described by a word ending in -ism.

If you want the Oxford English Dictionary definition:

atheism, n.

Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθiːɪz(ə)m/

Forms: Also 15 athisme.

Frequency (in current use):

Etymology: < French athéisme (16th cent. in Littré), < Greek ἄθεος : see atheal adj. and -ism suffix. Compare Italian atheismo and the earlier atheonism n.(Show Less)

Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God.

Note: Atheos + ism, not a-theism (unless you and some random atheist websites are in fact greater authorities on the English language than the OED)


No matter how many straws you clutch at, the 'argument from letters' is both a terrible argument and it better supports the opposing position.

Why not just argue that the modern definition is better for whatever reason you prefer it? There's no need to pretend it is actually the classical usage as this is palpably nonsense.

 

[ArtieE]

If you want the Oxford English Dictionary definition:

atheism, n.

Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθiːɪz(ə)m/

Forms: Also 15 athisme.

Frequency (in current use):

Etymology: < French athéisme (16th cent. in Littré), < Greek ἄθεος : see atheal adj. and -ism suffix. Compare Italian atheismo and the earlier atheonism n.(Show Less)

Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God.

Or... Lack of belief in, or denial of, the existence of a God. Since "lack of belief" is a synonym for disbelief. Thanks for supporting my position.

disbelief
NOUN
mass noun

• 
  
  
  • 1Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
    
    ‘Laura shook her head in disbelief’
    incredulity, incredulousness, lack of belief"

Disbelief | Definition of Disbelief by Lexico

 

[night912]

You seem to have forgotten that we are discussing the word atheism. This is atheos + -ism.

So what does -ism mean?

Seeing as wiktionary is your preferred oracle : An ideology, system of thought, or practice that can be described by a word ending in -ism.

If you want the Oxford English Dictionary definition:

atheism, n.

Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθiːɪz(ə)m/

Forms: Also 15 athisme.

Frequency (in current use):

Etymology: < French athéisme (16th cent. in Littré), < Greek ἄθεος : see atheal adj. and -ism suffix. Compare Italian atheismo and the earlier atheonism n.(Show Less)

Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God.

Note: Atheos + ism, not a-theism (unless you and some random atheist websites are in fact greater authorities on the English language than the OED)


No matter how many straws you clutch at, the 'argument from letters' is both a terrible argument and it better supports the opposing position.

Why not just argue that the modern definition is better for whatever reason you prefer it? There's no need to pretend it is actually the classical usage as this is palpably nonsense.

So by definition and its first usage, atheism would be define as....
The belief in the disbelief of a god.

 

[Augustus]

Or... Lack of belief in, or denial of, the existence of a God. Since "lack of belief" is a synonym for disbelief. Thanks for supporting my position.

disbelief
NOUN
mass noun

• 
  
  
  • 1Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
    
    ‘Laura shook her head in disbelief’
    incredulity, incredulousness, lack of belief"

Disbelief | Definition of Disbelief by Lexico

Disbelief is not the same as absence/lack of belief, it is a belief something is not true. You do understand that synonyms are words that have similar but not necessarily the exact same meaning? Lack of belief certainly doesn't mean means the same as incredulity.

Anyway, you seem to be confused about our discussion, as I wasn't arguing how you should define the term, but that the "it's literally a-theism which literally means without theism so that's the One True Definition" argument is terrible and actually far better supports the opposing position. Arguing subjective preference goes nowhere, but the word's etymology is a matter of historical fact.

Seeing as I have clearly demonstrated the word evolved as atheos + ism (thus signifying belief), not a + theism, something noted by even the atheist site you quoted, but more importantly clearly stated by the OED, I think we can leave it at that.

It's a bit strange some atheists feel the need to pretend the alternative modern definition is actually the original one when it can be very easily proved not to be the case. Even more so when it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to which definition is preferable in the modern world. Why take up an objectively wrong argument, for no reason, simply because someone else said it on the internet? Each to their own I suppose.

 

[Augustus]

So by definition and its first usage, atheism would be define as....
The belief in the disbelief of a god.

No.

 

[ArtieE]

Disbelief is not the same as absence/lack of belief, it is a belief something is not true.

Then just find me a definition of disbelief where it says "belief that something is not true". If not, I will just assume you made that up.

atheos på engelsk
atheist
{ noun }
a person who rejects belief that any deities exist, whether or not that person believes that deities do not exist
one who does not have a belief in the existence of God, god, Gods or gods
Atheos in English - Latin-English Dictionary - Glosbe

 

[night912]

No.

By what you said, yes.

 

[Augustus]

Then just find me a definition of disbelief where it says "belief that something is not true". If not, I will just assume you made that up.

Oxford English Dictionary: The action or an act of disbelieving; mental rejection of a statement or assertion; positive unbelief.

 

[Augustus]

By what you said, yes.

By your misunderstanding of what I said, perhaps.

Not by what I said though

 

[ArtieE]

Oxford English Dictionary: The action or an act of disbelieving; mental rejection of a statement or assertion; positive unbelief.

Excellent! Where's the link to the page?

 

[Augustus]

Excellent! Where's the link to the page?

Home : Oxford English Dictionary if you have institutional access

 

[ArtieE]

Home : Oxford English Dictionary if you have institutional access

View attachment 33392

Does this mean that if one person says "gods exist" and another says "gods don't exist" I am forced to believe number two if I disbelieve number one?

 

[Augustus]

Does this mean that if one person says "gods exist" and another says "gods don't exist" I am forced to believe number two if I disbelieve number one?

This is another area where people have different opinions.

Personally, I believe the difference between "I believe gods don't exist" and "I don't believe gods exist" is merely grammatical quibbling, not a substantial cognitive difference.

Consciously acknowledging you don't believe gods exist is functionally the same as acknowledging you believe they don't exist.

Other people would argue that what I see as grammatical quibbling is in fact a real, meaningful difference.

The choice is yours.

 

[night912]

This is another area where people have different opinions.

Personally, I believe the difference between "I believe gods don't exist" and "I don't believe gods exist" is merely grammatical quibbling, not a substantial cognitive difference.

Consciously acknowledging you don't believe gods exist is functionally the same as acknowledging you believe they don't exist.

Other people would argue that what I see as grammatical quibbling is in fact a real, meaningful difference.

The choice is yours.

But that's not the only thing that can be said about god. "I don't believe god exist or that no god exist." That's different from "I believe no god exist or that god exist." If you believe that no god exist, then you can't believe that god exist. And if you believe that god exist, then you can't believe that no god exist. That's the difference between "belief" and "disbelief."