• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is atheism a threat to humanity?

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Marxist opposition to religion, especially organised religion doesn't derive from a stance on the existence of deities so much as for the fact that religion is a tool of control for conservatice aristocracies and autocrats hence the famous ''opium of the people'' quote of Marx.

It's a mixture of both. Whereas the West would argue religion is a product of the mind and was simply "invented" in people's heads, Marxists argue that religious illusions are a reflection of man's social organisation. This is where I'd argue the difference between "Western Atheism" and Marxism become most obvious. In Marxism, Religion isn't a giant conspiracy (or a "big lie") by the ruling classes or a complete accident, but is a superstructure reflecting the economic relations of society. It is a necessary part of social development as our understanding evolves from ignorance to scientific knowledge. In this process a ruling class unconsciously and spontaneously creates an picture of the world in its own image. As a model of the historical development of religious belief, it works something like this.

In hunter-gatherer societies, man has little understanding and control of nature. religious beliefs reflect man's powerlessness over natural forces, so people end up worshipping objects (totems) or animals as deities, often based on a kind of pantheism in which reality, nature and divinity are interchangeable. Magic plays a much greater role in these early religions, though it crops up again in later ones.

In slave societies, there is a progression from animal deities to humans as human beings gain more control over nature (e.g. from Ancient Egypt with it's Dung Beatle sun god Ra to the more human-looking Zeus in Ancient Greece). Polytheism is supposedly a reflection of the decentralised nature of power structures as civilisation evolves from tribes, city states to major empires. So for the Romans, polytheism incorporated the gods of conquered peoples in to the religion to keep the local inhabitants happy even as Roman gods from the rest of the empire were introduced.

In feudalism, there is a centralised of power in to monarchies. The emergence of Christianity in the Roman Empire represents the crisis of the slave system and the consolidation of political power as it evolves closer to Feudalism. So now there is one ruler and that is reflects as one god (monotheism). Even with the "one god" monotheistic system, everything exists within a hierarchical system reflecting the hierarchical nature of feudalism with kings at the top, lords underneath and serfs/peasants at the bottom.

Then we get to capitalism and religious authority goes from the church to the individual. The Protestant Reformation is a "capitalist" theology of individuals thinking for themselves (such as reading the bible in their own language) by fighting the "feudal" theology of the catholic church representing the more rigid hierarchical systems. Galileo makes an entrance because capitalism needs scientific knowledge to develop production, whilst the catholic church wants to preserve the integrity of the biblical account by resisting scientific challenges to christian belief.

Then we finally get to "Socialism" and Marxists say that they now have a scientific understanding of nature and society and consequently can eliminate all illusions; religious, political, philosophical and scientific. So the USSR proclaims "Dialectical Materialism" as the official ideology in 1931 and then tries to eliminate any competing ideology as both an anti-scientific ideology and a counter-revolutionary one reflecting the interests of the deposed ruling classes.

This model is adequate to give a broad overview of European history of religion, but I'm still not clear on how Indian Religions (Buddhism and Hinduism) fit in. Looking at the "opium of the people" quote in full, it takes on a much broader meaning given that religion is a reflection of those social relations:

"The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

Opium of the people - Wikipedia
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It's a mixture of both. Whereas the West would argue religion is a product of the mind and was simply "invented" in people's heads, Marxists argue that religious illusions are a reflection of man's social organisation. This is where I'd argue the difference between "Western Atheism" and Marxism become most obvious. In Marxism, Religion isn't a giant conspiracy (or a "big lie") by the ruling classes or a complete accident, but is a superstructure reflecting the economic relations of society. It is a necessary part of social development as our understanding evolves from ignorance to scientific knowledge. In this process a ruling class unconsciously and spontaneously creates an picture of the world in its own image. As a model of the historical development of religious belief, it works something like this.

In hunter-gatherer societies, man has little understanding and control of nature. religious beliefs reflect man's powerlessness over natural forces, so people end up worshipping objects (totems) or animals as deities, often based on a kind of pantheism in which reality, nature and divinity are interchangeable. Magic plays a much greater role in these early religions, though it crops up again in later ones.

In slave societies, there is a progression from animal deities to humans as human beings gain more control over nature (e.g. from Ancient Egypt with it's Dung Beatle sun god Ra to the more human-looking Zeus in Ancient Greece). Polytheism is supposedly a reflection of the decentralised nature of power structures as civilisation evolves from tribes, city states to major empires. So for the Romans, polytheism incorporated the gods of conquered peoples in to the religion to keep the local inhabitants happy even as Roman gods from the rest of the empire were introduced.

In feudalism, there is a centralised of power in to monarchies. The emergence of Christianity in the Roman Empire represents the crisis of the slave system and the consolidation of political power as it evolves closer to Feudalism. So now there is one ruler and that is reflects as one god (monotheism). Even with the "one god" monotheistic system, everything exists within a hierarchical system reflecting the hierarchical nature of feudalism with kings at the top, lords underneath and serfs/peasants at the bottom.

Then we get to capitalism and religious authority goes from the church to the individual. The Protestant Reformation is a "capitalist" theology of individuals thinking for themselves (such as reading the bible in their own language) by fighting the "feudal" theology of the catholic church representing the more rigid hierarchical systems. Galileo makes an entrance because capitalism needs scientific knowledge to develop production, whilst the catholic church wants to preserve the integrity of the biblical account.

Then we finally get to "Socialism" and Marxists say that they now have a scientific understanding of nature and society and consequently can eliminate all illusions; religious, political, philosophical and scientific. So the USSR proclaims "Dialectical Materialism" as the official ideology in 1931 and then tries to eliminate any competing ideology as both an anti-scientific ideology and a counter-revolutionary one reflecting the interests of the deposed ruling classes.

This model is adequate to give a broad overview of European history of religion, but I'm still not clear on how Indian Religions (Buddhism and Hinduism) fit in. Looking at the "opium of the people" quote in full, it takes on a much broader meaning given that religion is a reflection of those social relations:

"The foundation of irreligious criticism is: Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

Opium of the people - Wikipedia

There is no difference other than a shading of
emphasis in two ways of phrasing the same thing.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is no difference other than a shading of
emphasis in two ways of phrasing the same thing.

Based on the western philosophical tradition, Agnostic Atheists accept the possibility that god could exist, but argue there isn't enough evidence to support that conclusion. Marxists do not accept that it is possible and actively seek to eliminate anyone who professes even the possibility of a deity or the supernatural. So they try to eliminate agnostics as well as non-believers.

i.e. Richard Dawkins would attack Joseph Stalin for being "dogmatic" and "Totalitarian" and Stalin would through Dawkins in the Gulag for insisting on free thought for religious believers and non-believers alike as a way of spreading "false consciousness" amongst the masses.

The differences are large enough that one type would actively fight against and try to kill the other. But given that Stalin's version of Atheism is nearly non-existent in western countries, we don't see the conflict that often. It does exist however.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Based on the western philosophical tradition, Agnostic Atheists accept the possibility that god could exist, but argue there isn't enough evidence to support that conclusion. Marxists do not accept that it is possible and actively seek to eliminate anyone who professes even the possibility of a deity or the supernatural. So they try to eliminate agnostics as well as non-believers.

i.e. Richard Dawkins would attack Joseph Stalin for being "dogmatic" and "Totalitarian" and Stalin would through Dawkins in the Gulag for insisting on free thought for religious believers and non-believers alike as a way of spreading "false consciousness" amongst the masses.

The differences are large enough that one type would actively fight against and try to kill the other. But given that Stalin's version of Atheism is nearly non-existent in western countries, we don't see the conflict that often. It does exist however.
Based on the western philosophical tradition, Agnostic Atheists accept the possibility that god could exist, but argue there isn't enough evidence to support that conclusion. Marxists do not accept that it is possible and actively seek to eliminate anyone who professes even the possibility of a deity or the supernatural. So they try to eliminate agnostics as well as non-believers.

i.e. Richard Dawkins would attack Joseph Stalin for being "dogmatic" and "Totalitarian" and Stalin would through Dawkins in the Gulag for insisting on free thought for religious believers and non-believers alike as a way of spreading "false consciousness" amongst the masses.

The differences are large enough that one type would actively fight against and try to kill the other. But given that Stalin's version of Atheism is nearly non-existent in western countries, we don't see the conflict that often. It does exist however.

Whoever is that tiny fraction of some obscure philosophical
school sure is not what you said it is.....Whereas the West would argue
and the western philosophical tradition

As for this... Marxists do not accept that it is possible

I would sure have to see a reference for that. It is such an extra
ordinarily stupid position, that the claim seems very dubious.


As for it being agnostics who agree there could be a god, I never
ran across any atheist who would say it is impossible.
Which is, after all, also a really really stupid position.

You seem to me to be making a lot of highly dubious statements.
 
Last edited:

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Before starting this topic, let me say this: I know that atheists may say the opposite is true. Although this thread is not to discuss its topic in relation to religion, let me only give this example: during the golden age of the Islamic empire, despite what many people may think, the majority of the citizens of that empire were non-Muslims!

The Christians, the Jews, and the Zoroastrians, were all allowed to keep their lands in their hands and keep their places of worship, and were not enforced convert to the new religion. The tax (Jizya) they were paying was marginal compared to the hefty taxes they were used to pay to the Roman and Pertain empires. Indeed that is why many of the citizens of those empires have welcomed and even supported the newcomers. And if it was not for this support, the small number of Muslim Bedouins and other Arabs with their ill equipped forces and poor strategies would not have been able to defeat the two great world powers of that time.

Now, let us return to our main topic, there is a real inherent ethical problem with atheists. They have no red lines coming from an outside source, such as religion. So they follow their own minds, While we all know that the human minds are limited. and humans are weak in nature, and their decisions may influenced by many factors. Even the opinions of the masses may be misguided by some evil powers.

What do you think?!

Now, let us return to our main topic, there is a real inherent ethical problem with atheists. They have no red lines coming from an outside source, such as religion. So they follow their own minds, While we all know that the human minds are limited. and humans are weak in nature, and their decisions may influenced by many factors. Even the opinions of the masses may be misguided by some evil powers.

I'm curious, why do you need some outside source to tell you how to act in a ethical and moral manner? As an atheist all I require to be a moral person is to develop a sense of empathy. If I would not want someone to treat me in a certain way then I shouldn't treat anyone else in that certain way. It's really very simple and basic. All I see religions doing is muddying the waters.

For instance, a religion can tell you that you should stone a person to death for daring to work on a certain day of the week. Personally I would NOT want anyone to stone me to death because I happened to work on a certain day, so I KNOW I shouldn't stone anyone else to death for simply working on a certain day, REGARDLESS of what some religious book tells me.

Seems to me that the REAL danger of having the masses misguided by evil powers is to let some old book or religious leaders decide what's ethically moral instead of simply relying on our ability to empathize.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
@viole said it first, but I think the point needs emphasizing, because this question has been asked many times before, in many ways, by other believers.

It really seems as if the people who ask this sort of question, or think it is a valid one, seem to have the notion that if they stopped believing in (and/or fearing) God, they would probably turn into raging monsters. Most non-believers never have to worry about this -- we already behave well without having to have this threat over our heads all the time.

I am not saying that non-believers are therefore somehow "better" than believers -- rather, I am suggesting that most believers hold that suspicion about their potential fall if they stopped believing wrongly. That it is most likely no more true for them than it is for non-believers.
 
Last edited:

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Atheism was a foundational principle of Marxism and played an important role as it placed humans at the top of the hierarchy. It wasn't simply incidental, or a pragmatic reaction to specific religious organisations, but something which underpinned their entire philosophy. There was a practical dimension too of course, but ultimately it was drive by a theoretical imperitive.

Lenin: "Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism"
Leon Trotsky: “We must rid ourselves once and for all of the Quaker-Papist babble about the sanctity of human life”.

Excerpts from Karl Marx: A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right

"The criticism of religion is the prerequisite of all criticism.

It is our duty to destroy every religious world-concept... If the destruction of ten million human beings, as happened in the last war, should be necessary for the triumph of one definite class, then that must be done and it will be done.

The criticism of religion leads to the doctrine according to which man is, for man, the supreme being; therefore it reaches the categorical imperative of overthrowing all relationships in which man is a degraded, enslaved, abandoned, contemptible being.

There therefore was no distinction between [Marxism's] philosophical views regarding atheism and its political views.

The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.

Thus, the criticism of Heaven turns into the criticism of Earth, the criticism of religion into the criticism of law, and the criticism of theology into the criticism of politics."


There can be no doubt that the fact that the new state of the USSR led by the communist party, with a program permeated by the spirit of militant atheism, gives the reason why this state is successfully surmounting the great difficulties that stand in its way - that neither "heavenly powers" nor the exhortations of all the priests in all the world can prevent its attaining its aims it has set itself

Religion and communism are incompatible, both theoretically and practically.

Struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism"



It is furthermore imperative to put the propaganda of atheism on solid ground. You won't achieve much with the weapons of Marx and materialism, as we have seen. Materialism and religion are two different planes and they don't coincide. If a fool speaks from the heavens and the sage from a factory--they won't understand one another. The sage needs to hit the fool with his stick, with his weapon. Gorky, Letter to Stalin

Why do you keep quoting a bunch of totalitarian communists as if they were an authority on atheism? The only reason that the USSR advocated for atheism is because they wanted the people to worship the state and didn't want competition from religion.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Whoever is that tiny fraction of some obscure philosophical
school sure is not what you said it is.....Whereas the West would argue
and the western philosophical tradition

That's probably because you have a fulfilling, complex and exciting social life with far have better things to do. Whereas reading Marxist Philosophy is both a symptom and a cause of being a loner and social reject. I could blame capitalism, but it's not as if it is going to change anything. :D

t0gLKcX.jpg
 
Last edited:

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Before starting this topic, let me say this: I know that atheists may say the opposite is true. Although this thread is not to discuss its topic in relation to religion, let me only give this example: during the golden age of the Islamic empire, despite what many people may think, the majority of the citizens of that empire were non-Muslims!

The Christians, the Jews, and the Zoroastrians, were all allowed to keep their lands in their hands and keep their places of worship, and were not enforced convert to the new religion. The tax (Jizya) they were paying was marginal compared to the hefty taxes they were used to pay to the Roman and Pertain empires. Indeed that is why many of the citizens of those empires have welcomed and even supported the newcomers. And if it was not for this support, the small number of Muslim Bedouins and other Arabs with their ill equipped forces and poor strategies would not have been able to defeat the two great world powers of that time.

Now, let us return to our main topic, there is a real inherent ethical problem with atheists. They have no red lines coming from an outside source, such as religion. So they follow their own minds, While we all know that the human minds are limited. and humans are weak in nature, and their decisions may influenced by many factors. Even the opinions of the masses may be misguided by some evil powers.

What do you think?!

I'm curious. What moral laws in your holy book would you stop following if they weren't in your holy book? If your book had no rules about not murdering other people, would you start practicing murder? If your book had no prohibitions against stealing, would you start taking things that weren't yours every chance you got? So, which rules in your book, if they weren't in your book, would you start breaking?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Before starting this topic, let me say this: I know that atheists may say the opposite is true. Although this thread is not to discuss its topic in relation to religion, let me only give this example: during the golden age of the Islamic empire, despite what many people may think, the majority of the citizens of that empire were non-Muslims!

The Christians, the Jews, and the Zoroastrians, were all allowed to keep their lands in their hands and keep their places of worship, and were not enforced convert to the new religion. The tax (Jizya) they were paying was marginal compared to the hefty taxes they were used to pay to the Roman and Pertain empires. Indeed that is why many of the citizens of those empires have welcomed and even supported the newcomers. And if it was not for this support, the small number of Muslim Bedouins and other Arabs with their ill equipped forces and poor strategies would not have been able to defeat the two great world powers of that time.

Now, let us return to our main topic, there is a real inherent ethical problem with atheists. They have no red lines coming from an outside source, such as religion. So they follow their own minds, While we all know that the human minds are limited. and humans are weak in nature, and their decisions may influenced by many factors. Even the opinions of the masses may be misguided by some evil powers.

What do you think?!
Interesting, but ultimately misguided.

We are ALL deciding for ourselves what our ethical priorities are, regardless of whether we decide to adopt them from some religious ideology or other, or whether we decide to generate them based on our own intellect and experiences. So there really is no essential ethical (moral) difference between a theist and an atheist. In the end we are all each responsible for our own minds and choices, and as weak human beings, we are all equally likely to come up short on a regular basis.
 
Last edited:

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Before starting this topic, let me say this: I know that atheists may say the opposite is true. Although this thread is not to discuss its topic in relation to religion, let me only give this example: during the golden age of the Islamic empire, despite what many people may think, the majority of the citizens of that empire were non-Muslims!

The Christians, the Jews, and the Zoroastrians, were all allowed to keep their lands in their hands and keep their places of worship, and were not enforced convert to the new religion. The tax (Jizya) they were paying was marginal compared to the hefty taxes they were used to pay to the Roman and Pertain empires. Indeed that is why many of the citizens of those empires have welcomed and even supported the newcomers. And if it was not for this support, the small number of Muslim Bedouins and other Arabs with their ill equipped forces and poor strategies would not have been able to defeat the two great world powers of that time.

Now, let us return to our main topic, there is a real inherent ethical problem with atheists. They have no red lines coming from an outside source, such as religion. So they follow their own minds, While we all know that the human minds are limited. and humans are weak in nature, and their decisions may influenced by many factors. Even the opinions of the masses may be misguided by some evil powers.

What do you think?!

I think it's weak human minds who design religion, try to stick to religious tenets, and disagree on scripture.

Whether there is a perfect God or not, humanity is flawed, theist and non theist alike.

My other comment is more technical, but belief in God and following dogma are not mutually inclusive.
Being an atheist and being religious is not mutually exclusive.
So is it religion or God that you see as impactful?
 
Top