Is atheism the teenage revolt years?

[bobhikes]

I was thinking about god and punishment. To my sons I am very much like God. I hand out punishments and tell them no when they want to hear yes. I also make them do things they don't want to do.

This is all for there betterment, so that they can be productive as adults. Currently they are adolescents.

When they become teenager's they are going to revolt. They will believe they know better than me(they will know somethings better I'm not god). They will want to leave my house. They will want to live there own way.

Then when they become adult's they will realize some truths. There will be a balancing of our lives. Although father and son we will be more compromising.


Now all people don't go through all stages. What I am equating this to is our religious beliefs.

Theist - Child State
Atheist - Teenage State
Agnostic - Adult State

What do you think

 

[Onkara]

I would say the order is atheist (Child), agnostic (teen), theist (adult).
I wouldn't be as strict about the age groups, but in respect to your categories this is how I would see it in respect to God (rather than parent as god which I think is why you say theist first?)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Speaking for myself, my atheism - or at least my rejection of theistic belief systems - comes out of my sense of responsibility to myself to figure out what is true, and to exercise my judgement about what is wrong and right.

For me, with any theistic belief system I've enountered so far, accepting it would mean either blindly accepting beliefs handed to me by someone else, or failing to stand up for what I think is good and moral... or both.

So... for me, because my atheism is a result of my best attempt at honesty, integrity and thoughtfulness, all things I associate with adult responsibility, any deviation from this would feel more childlike.

However, this is just based on my personal experience. I imagine that someone who followed a different path to arrive at theism honestly would have a very different impression.

 

[bobhikes]

I would say the order is atheist (Child), agnostic (teen), theist (adult).
I wouldn't be as strict about the age groups, but in respect to your categories this is how I would see it in respect to God (rather than parent as god which I think is why you say theist first?)

I am not strict about age groups but how they act with a father figure and I am not saying that adult is the goal according to christian belief child is the goal.

A theist will treat god as special not an equal like a child with a father. A theist will not understand all the workings of god and accept them, or complain or ask for help. They believe their father is always right.

An Atheist will oppose god, believe that there knowledge is better than gods, want to get away from god create there own life. Much like a teenager trying to be their own adult.

An agnostic has learned to balance God, has learned to compromise beliefs. An agnostic understands there is more to learn but is comfortable with their life. Living is the main focus. Like a son that has his own child. He now can understand a lot of what his father went through, He no longer wants to save the world but make it better for his offspring.

 

[Erebus]

The recent growth of atheism can largely be traced to several events (and yes I am simplifying). You have the enlightenment in which scientific discovery was the name of the game and people began to move away from hard theism and towards deism and pantheism. You have the world wars and the cultural and artistic responses to them in which people sincerely questioned the problem of evil. You have medical breakthroughs such as the first heart transplant and the resulting creation of the concept of "braindeath" which led to questions about the limits of life and the possibility of the afterlife. You have Wars carried out either in the name of religion or with religious connotations which naturally caused people to question the authority and morality of religion.
These are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head that IMO would naturally lead to an increase in atheistic thinking. Partly as opposition sure, but not entirely as there are many other factors (enlightenment, medical breakthroughs etc) to take into account.

Simply put I don't think that atheism, theism or agnosticism are so much phases in the maturity of humanity as they are cultural trends that will change and possibly even cycle over time.

 

[Onkara]

Hi Bob
I didn't mean to imply your age categories were strict, however I have seen parents struggling to control infants e.g. 1 or 2 years old and have been told the infant certainly knows what they want. In other words they don't blindly accept and can even scream when what they want is denied (by the god-adult), but perhaps they are still too young to rebel like a teen. So isn't this an exception showing that a child is more egocentric like an atheist?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

An Atheist will oppose god, believe that there knowledge is better than gods, want to get away from god create there own life. Much like a teenager trying to be their own adult.

That makes no sense.

An atheist doesn't think that they know better than God; they think that there is no God.

To work this into your analogy, atheism isn't like rebellion from your parents; it's like coming to the realization that you're an orphan. That tends not to be a passing phase.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

An atheist doesn't think that they know better than God; they think that there is no God.

While the agnostic vacillates between believing in parents, storks, ...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So isn't this an exception showing that a child is more egocentric like an atheist?

Hmm. I guess I should've figured out from the title that this was the "mischaracterizations of atheists" thread. :areyoucra

To extend my adaptation of the analogy a bit more, if you go up to a teenager who thinks he's an orphan and say "hey! I found your Dad! Here's his biography" and your response is "well, this biography doesn't make a lot of sense, and there's some stuff in here that makes it sound like he probably isn't my Dad. And judging by what I'm reading, I'm not sure I'd even want him to be my Dad", can you automatically infer egocentrism? Could you even infer that he doesn't want to have parents?

 

[freethinker44]

I don't think teenage rebellion and atheism are alike at all. In the simplest of terms, an atheist is someone who knows there is no god, so becoming atheist means coming in to this knowledge and there is a huge difference between that and rebelling. To use an analogy, it is like discovering a new planet in our solar system. People who accept there is one more planet than previously known are not rebelling against anything, they are simply changing their minds.

That said, there is a good amount of rebellion within atheism. I think this stems more from the overwhelming oppressive power religions try to exert over all people in a community or nation. This is political rebellion, not teenage rebellion, and it comes after an atheist realizes there is no god not before or during.

This doesn't apply to all atheists but I think the majority might agree. There probably are some atheists or ex-atheists who were just rebelling against god and never actually disbelieved in the first place. Kirk Cameron comes to mind.

 

[bobhikes]

That makes no sense.

An atheist doesn't think that they know better than God; they think that there is no God.

To work this into your analogy, atheism isn't like rebellion from your parents; it's like coming to the realization that you're an orphan. That tends not to be a passing phase.

Your talking with an agnostic the realize's you can't prove or disprove the existance of god. This is my bias.

The issue with coming to the realization that your an orphan doesn't work if you keep challenging the father figure. I know you not my father but I am going to keep challenging you. How do you know comes to mind? You have a proof you have worked up with your own intelligence. Just like a teenager is sure he has learned all he needs to know. Orphan does not discount a father only that it is a different father.

 

[bobhikes]

The recent growth of atheism can largely be traced to several events (and yes I am simplifying). You have the enlightenment in which scientific discovery was the name of the game and people began to move away from hard theism and towards deism and pantheism. You have the world wars and the cultural and artistic responses to them in which people sincerely questioned the problem of evil. You have medical breakthroughs such as the first heart transplant and the resulting creation of the concept of "braindeath" which led to questions about the limits of life and the possibility of the afterlife. You have Wars carried out either in the name of religion or with religious connotations which naturally caused people to question the authority and morality of religion.
These are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head that IMO would naturally lead to an increase in atheistic thinking. Partly as opposition sure, but not entirely as there are many other factors (enlightenment, medical breakthroughs etc) to take into account.

Simply put I don't think that atheism, theism or agnosticism are so much phases in the maturity of humanity as they are cultural trends that will change and possibly even cycle over time.

I am not saying what causes atheism theism or agnosticism but relating them to humanity. To me it is quite obvious behaviorly that they act according to human parameters.

If I were to watch a child I could understand a theist
If I were to watch a teen(young adult) I could understand an atheist
If I were to watch an adult(probably a parent) I could understand an agnostic.

I am not saying which is right or wrong but they line up very well if you consider how humans interact with there father on average.

Watch how the atheist complains about being a teenager, listen to the responce. I can predict the replies and won't be surpised. There will also be more complaints

Same to the theist's that complain(less will complain). There replies are predictable as well.

Can you type them yourself.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Theist - Child State
Atheist - Teenage State
Agnostic - Adult State

What do you think

I think that this is more than a little self-congratulatory.

In our spiritual journey, we can bounce around as much as we want to, but our spiritual maturity is not dependent on our religion.

For example, an agnostic can be just as stupid and dogmatic as the most fundamentalist Christian.

And then there's the thoughtless atheist who is a pseudo intellectual and a Christian is more mature.

It just doesn't matter. But possibly I think that we're all kids.

 

[Onkara]

Hmm. I guess I should've figured out from the title that this was the "mischaracterizations of atheists" thread. :areyoucra

To extend my adaptation of the analogy a bit more, if you go up to a teenager who thinks he's an orphan and say "hey! I found your Dad! Here's his biography" and your response is "well, this biography doesn't make a lot of sense, and there's some stuff in here that makes it sound like he probably isn't my Dad. And judging by what I'm reading, I'm not sure I'd even want him to be my Dad", can you automatically infer egocentrism? Could you even infer that he doesn't want to have parents?

I can see your point. I would have asked on what ground the comparison was made when the teenager says "I'm not sure I'd even what him to be my Dad"? It appears he is comparing his self image (or ego) to the biography.

Aren't there more biographies on the shelf?

 

[bobhikes]

I think that this is more than a little self-congratulatory.

In our spiritual journey, we can bounce around as much as we want to, but our spiritual maturity is not dependent on our religion.

For example, an agnostic can be just as stupid and dogmatic as the most fundamentalist Christian.

And then there's the thoughtless atheist who is a pseudo intellectual and a Christian is more mature.

It just doesn't matter. But possibly I think that we're all kids.

Its not about intelligence, its about behaviour. Thats what the issue is.

How does a typical child act to the father (some children are more intelligent then the father)

How does a typical teen act to the father(most teens are far more current in intellectual pursuits than there father)

How does a typical adult act to the father(Adults are all different in intelligence)

 

[waitasec]

What I am equating this to is our religious beliefs.

Theist - Child State
Atheist - Teenage State
Agnostic - Adult State

What do you think

if what you mean by this is
theist=ignorance (as a child)
atheist=arrogance (the audacity to follow your inner voice)
agnostic=rational (knowing you don't know)

i agree...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Its not about intelligence, its about behaviour. Thats what the issue is.

How does a typical child act to the father (some children are more intelligent then the father)

How does a typical teen act to the father(most teens are far more current in intellectual pursuits than there father)

How does a typical adult act to the father(Adults are all different in intelligence)

Dude this is so weird I can speak to it.

I'm not flexible enough for those gymnastics.

 

[Onkara]

if what you mean by this is
theist=ignorance (as a child)
atheist=arrogance (the audacity to follow your inner voice)
agnostic=rational (knowing you don't know)

i agree...

lol
I see it like this
athiest = arrogance (egocentricity)
agnostic = ignorance (not sure)
theist = deliverance (liberation)

 

[bobhikes]

if what you mean by this is
theist=ignorance (as a child)
atheist=arrogance (the audacity to follow your inner voice)
agnostic=rational (knowing you don't know)

i agree...

More like
Theist = innocence
Atheist = challenging
Agnostic = compromise

With relation to a father figure because everyone's going to say theists aren't innocent and I'm not saying they are

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your talking with an agnostic the realize's you can't prove or disprove the existance of god. This is my bias.

Two points:

- we're not talking about your point of view, we're talking about the point of view of some hypothetical atheist... something that you say you're not. You can't impose your own view on theirs and still have something that can be judged fairly.

- strictly speaking, we're also not talking about the existence of God; we're talking about a relationship with God. I don't know about you, but I'm incapable of having a relationship with something if I'm not sure it exists at all. The agnostic - if he's being intellectually honest - is no less "rebellious" than the atheist. If, in your analogy, the atheist is the child who's so upset with his parents that he pretends they don't exist, then the agnostic is the child who acknowledges that they do exist, but refuses to call them.

The issue with coming to the realization that your an orphan doesn't work if you keep challenging the father figure. I know you not my father but I am going to keep challenging you. How do you know comes to mind? You have a proof you have worked up with your own intelligence. Just like a teenager is sure he has learned all he needs to know. Orphan does not discount a father only that it is a different father.

Don't get too into the details. It was a flawed analogy from the start, and my re-working of it is probably still very flawed as well. I only brought it up because I thought you'd be able to relate to it. My mistake.