Is being gay a sin according to your religion?

[Ingledsva]

Here is what I dont understand. Why would you think same-sex is okay given its not in the Bible? I was talking to Jostories on this in post 4165 and 4166.

Thats like saying "okay, I will murder today" because the bible doesnt say "thou can murder" so its okay. Even though it says you cannot murder. Why would I assume that murder is okay (or marrriage) when scripture emphasis the opposite?

Scripture specificly states marriage is between male and female both in culture and in text. There is no scripture that says opposite. Why would anyone assume factually that same-sex marriage is okay? Even more so, where in the Bible are they basing their opinions on?

Again it does not. It talks about heterosexual marriage, - but does NOT "specifically state" that marriage is only between male and female.

And again - if they actually were against any other marriage arrangement, - they would have written that in the Bible. They did not.

And they knew this was also going on in the cultures around them that they interacted with. So why didn't they actually condemn it? We know some Roman Emperors married men, so obviously they could do that there.

Also, there is no sacred intimacy between same-sex individiuals in the Bible only lust. The definition of homosexuality is basd on actions in lust in the Bible. We cant assume that these actions are right because the intention isnt in the Bible. If it were just intent, you can fit almost anything not in the Bible to meet ones needs. It also expresses what Is in the Bible. Christians interpret all same-sex actions as sinful

because like marriage, no scripture says otherwise.

Wrong yes. Bothersome yes. Can I change that, no.

It is what it is.

Where in the Bible does it actually say same-sex coupling is lust? It doesn't.

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[SkepticThinker]

This is a long thread and I don't recall if I mentioned this before but will take a chance
and mention it here.
Years ago I had an uncle who bred hounds for hunters.
Sometimes a male hound would "hump" other male dogs at every opportunity.
Uncle said these male dogs were "queer" and he'd shoot them dead.
Reason he gave was that they might breed a female and produce other
"queer" dogs.
I haven't a clue but I always made sure uncle knew I wasn't!!!

Oh my!

 

[SkepticThinker]

It started with a discussion of brain size, you will not in my

No, the discussion was about brain size with another poster. I said this to the person you are referencing, who chimed in, apparently confused about what we were discussing.

Well I went back and checked what that person had said, and it was not about brain size.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, I am making a claim, have given , have given an acceptable explanation, and you are free to disagree

Could you point out to me where and what you think that explanation was? I must have missed it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So then, it isn't true. Hormones and brain chemicals are not the basis of homosexuality

How many times to I have to point out that there are many factors involved? (Just like there are many factors involved in the development of a heterosexual mind.) The above are some of them.

 

[InChrist]

First - it has not been disproved.

And did you notice that, inadvertently, that quote tells us he had a REPUTATION AS A SCHOLAR?

Interesting - isn't it, - that since this info - doesn't jive with this authors ideas about Christianity, - suddenly his REPUTATION AS A SCHOLAR is ruined.

Secondly - they have absolute proof, by their writings, - that some Christian sects used sex in their rites.

You folks please do go read that article as it DOES NOT actually prove anything false, - and includes that other well known Biblical scholars like Elaine Pagels thought well of it.

"Helmut Koester at Harvard has even claimed that "Secret Mark" is an earlier version of the Gospel according to Mark in the New Testament. Elaine Pagels wrote a glowing foreword for a reprint of Smith's book for Dawn Horse Press, the publishing wing of a movement guided by the self-designated Avatar Adi Da Samraj, who claimed to continue Jesus's sexually liberating practices.

And this ADMISSION - "

"He has mastered his brief impressively, and although in my view he does not quite prove that Smith was a forger, he does demonstrate — within the limits of certainty that incomplete evidence involves — that "Secret Mark" is someone's forgery, and that Smith, who died in 1991, was the likely culprit."

And this - which proves it did exist -

"These and later images in color constitute the only material evidence for the existence of the document, which was moved from the Mar Saba monastery to a library in Jerusalem in 1977. The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate, the legal custodian, has not released the text for further study; its use in the West to portray Jesus as homoerotic probably explains why.

pure speculation - with no proof.

In other words - baloney!

*

There is enough proof for me knowing that such views contradict the expressed morality of God's word contained in the canon of scripture, as do any unsanctioned and perverted sex practices of any so-called Christian sects. It is baloney to continually attempt to superimpose modern and/or deviant sexual behavior onto the pages of scripture trying to find approval from the Bible.

 

[InChrist]

And that claim is false. There is no "universal" form of marriage (it can be so loosely defined that it's more of a temporary pairing than "marriage"), and polygamy has been practiced, by our species as a whole, far more frequently than monogamy.
.

The universal, historical view of marriage through all cultures and civilizations has been between...male and female, whether monogamy or polygamy. That was the claim....historically marriage=male and female. I was not discussing a "form" of marriage, such as polygamy or monogamy in the post you quoted, rather the "who" of marriage which has always been throughout history and all cultures male and female. Do you understand what I'm saying?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Where in the Bible does it actually say same-sex coupling is lust? It doesn't.

Oh gosh. There are too many quotes to list in addition to the common ones you heard already from believers. Why would you think according to the Bible that same-sex coupling is not lust?

Where in the Bible does it look kindly to same-sex relations?

Gosh, I should just stop here and have to think why youd ask this.

Anyway, my point:

Same-sex marriage is not in the Bible.
All scripture prooves otherwise
Why would you assume or claim that it is right or allowed?
What scripture are you basing this on?

Cant get more simplier than that.

 

[Ingledsva]

No,"all the rest of the evidence" didn't include anything about correlations of brain size with homosexuality, that I recall

It took me awhile to find this info in more recent articles.

"According to one study, the human brain can show “masculine” or “feminine” traits, irrespective of physical sexual characteristics. When the fetus develops, gender identity and the sexual differentiation of the genitals may develop independently of one another. The former takes place during the second half of pregnancy while the latter starts much earlier, within the first 8 weeks of gestation. Incidentally, incongruent development in these two regions usually leads to transsexuality."

"Several other studies indicate that sexual orientation — heterosexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality — is determined by peculiarities of the brain structure and differences in brain chemistry. Cultural or societal factors, upbringing, moral leanings, and educational attainments do not determine sexual orientation as greatly as neural mechanisms do.

"A landmark study by Savic and Lindström indicates that there are cerebral differences in homosexual and heterosexual individuals. There are differences in brain anatomy, activities, and neurological connections. Brain scan images of the subjects who participated in this study show that the brains of homosexual individuals exhibit similar structure and functionality as that of heterosexual individuals of the opposite gender."

"According to the findings of the Savic-Lindström study, the number of neural connections also varied between hetero- and homosexual subjects. For instance, gay men and straight women showed greater neural connectivity in the cingulate cortex and contralateral amygdala regions than straight men and lesbians respectively. On the other hand, straight men and lesbian women exhibited significantly more neural connections in the frontal lobe cortex and the parietal cortex regions compared to gay men and straight women respectively."

http://brainblogger.com/2015/05/14/homosexuality-in-the-brain/

This was interesting.

"Given the results regarding both INAH 3 and AC correlation to sexual orientation, the understanding that no single brain structure correlates to sexual orientation carries weight. The apparent interconnected nature of varying brain regions suggests that factors operating early in development differentiate on the basis of gender and sexual orientation within sexually dimorphic structures and brain function in a cumulative manner2. Exploring which specific factors influence which kind of development requires an endocrinologic approach alongside traditional neurobiological studies."

"By extension, this demonstration could also suggest that steroid hormones affect the human hypothalamus to influence sexual orientation. Studies investigating this effect would further emphasize the critical biology of sexual orientation and eliminate the social argument of “choosing” one’s sexuality."

http://www.bu.edu/thenerve/archives/spring-2010/reviews-spring-2010/homosexuality/

Some reading on the original research.

1. Morris, J. A., Gobrogge, K. L., Jordan, C. L. & Breedlove, S. M. 2004. Brain aromatase: dyed-in-the-wool homosexuality, Endocrinology 145:475–477.

2. Breedlove, SM. 1992. Sexually dimorphism in the vertebrate nervous system, The Journal of Neuroscience 12: 4133-4142.

3. Levay, S. 1991. A Difference in Hypothalamic Structure between Heterosexual and Homosexual Men, Science 253:1034-1037.

4. Allen LS, Gorski RA. 1992. Sexual orientation and size of the anterior commissure in the human brain, Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 89:7199–7202.

5. Roselli CE, Larkin K, Resko JA, Stellflug JN, Stormshak F. 2004. The volume of a sexually dimorphic nucleus in the ovine medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus varies with sexual partner preference. Endocrinology 145:478-483

6. James, W. H. 2005. Biological and psychological determinants of male and female human sexual orientation, Journal of Biosocial Science 37:555–567.

7. Savic, H. Berglund and P. Lindstrom. 2005. Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 102:7356–7361.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Oh gosh. There are too many quotes to list in addition to the common ones you heard already from believers.

I haven't been shown any such by believers. I have been shown texts that actually use words for SACRED SEX PROSTITUTES, - as shown.

Or verses about male-female marriage. - BUT - none against same sex marriage.

Why would you think according to the Bible that same-sex coupling is not lust?

Perhaps because it doesn't say same sex coupling is lust.

Where in the Bible does it look kindly to same-sex relations?

Where does it not look kindly to same sex relationships?

Gosh, I should just stop here and have to think why youd ask this.

Anyway, my point:

Same-sex marriage is not in the Bible.
All scripture prooves otherwise
Why would you assume or claim that it is right or allowed?
What scripture are you basing this on?

Cant get more simplier than that.

Same sex marriage isn't discussed, or condemned, in the Bible.

Nor does the Bible tell us that only male-female marriages are allowed.

Thus they cannot use the Bible to condemn same-sex marriage.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

So then, it isn't true. Hormones and brain chemicals are not the basis of homosexuality

LOL! You need to reread that.

See post # 4211.

NONSENSE.....................Non Canonical, Any and all of the Church Fathers were not Apostles, Perverted and spurious "gospels" were written well into the dark ages. There were cults which were rooted out in the first century, that no one takes seriously

It would not matter if such "cults" were supposedly later "rooted out." They provide us evidence of sex rites in Christian groups.

See post # 4197.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

There is enough proof for me knowing that such views contradict the expressed morality of God's word contained in the canon of scripture, as do any unsanctioned and perverted sex practices of any so-called Christian sects. It is baloney to continually attempt to superimpose modern and/or deviant sexual behavior onto the pages of scripture trying to find approval from the Bible.

Well, enough proof for you, is not the same as real proof.

They did not prove what they were saying in the article, - and as shown, actually shot-themselves-in-the-foot, with the info they provided. LOL!

*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The universal, historical view of marriage through all cultures and civilizations has been between...male and female, whether monogamy or polygamy.

Again this is false, because we have strong evidence of bonds between men, between women, group marriages aren't unusual, and we even often find men and women who marry some concept of a third-sex or transgender person.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You are completely missing my points. You dont need to bold it. I read all your posts. I will try to make these two or three sentences or less.

I haven't been shown any such by believers. I have been shown texts that actually use words for SACRED SEX PROSTITUTES, - as shown.

Or verses about male-female marriage. - BUT - none against same sex marriage

Like I have already said, there is no verse against same-sex marriage. There verses I have already quoted that says otherwise. Why would you assume it is allowed when nothing in scripture hints at promoting same-sex marriage?

Perhaps because it doesn't say same sex coupling is lust.

You want it verbatum?

I am talking about same-sex sex not intimacy. There are many scriptures that say it is wrong. A lot of them you may have already heard (regardless if it relates to protitution).

Why would you assume same-sex actions are okay when everything proves otherwise?

Where does it not look kindly to same sex relationships?

Again, same-sex relationships in the Bible is refering to actions based on lust (prostitution, adultry, and so forth). It is not based on intimacy between two men or two women.

You are not reading context.

Why would you think any of us would assume same-sex marriage according to scripture is alright when every verse refering to male/female union and culture speaks otherwise?

Why would I pick option Z if there are only options A-C? Do I make up an option so I can get a better grade?

Look at the context.

Wrap Up

EDIT: You wrote:

Same sex marriage isn't discussed, or condemned, in the Bible.
My point: According to the Bible, that still doesnt make same-sex marriage right.

Nor does the Bible tell us that only male-female marriages are allowed.
My point: Scripture says marriage is between male and female (by scripture and by culture).
Why would you assume otherwise?

Thus they cannot use the Bible to condemn same-sex marriage.
My point: According to scripture, that doesnt make it right.

And they knew this was also going on in the cultures around them that they interacted with. So why didn't they actually condemn it? We know some Roman Emperors married men, so obviously they could do that there.
My Point: Since it is not in the Bible, why would you consider it okay just because the Romans did it? In scripture, it emphasis marriage is between male and female. Why would you assume otherwise all because it was practiced in history and never mentioned in scripture?

Where in the Bible does it actually say same-sex coupling is lust? It doesn't.
My point: Protitution is a form of lust. Many men and women were protituting and so forth among each other both homo and heterosexal sex. Look at context. It doesnt say it point blank. Whats your point?

And again - if they actually were against any other marriage arrangement, - they would have written that in the Bible. They did not.
My point: According to scripture, that doesnt make it right. Dont know why they didnt mention it; has nothing to do with what the Bible actually says.

It talks about heterosexual marriage, - but does NOT "specifically state" that marriage is only between male and female.
My point: According to scripture, it doesnt make same-sex marriage right just absent in scripture.

Why is this hard to understand--not agree with--but understand?

 

[JoStories]

No where does it say that marriage cannot be between same-sex partners.

Why would I assume that it is okay for same-sex partners to marry just because it is not in scripture? Especially when its specific in who should marry (all ten or so verses or so I posted) both in culture and scripture (making a point).

The evidence is that scripture does not mention that marriage cannot be between same-sex partners. That leaves me to assume based on culture and scripture that god specifically wanted marriage to be between male and female.

Where can you find where same-sex marriage is mentioned to where in context and culture of that period, anyone would accept that type of marriage from the beginning to now?

Where in scripture does anything come from the mouth of Christ?

No Christian I know, at least and denominations I been through ever separated Christ from the gospels just because it is spoken through his disciples and not himself personally (as so they disagree).

What are you trying to say?

I want you to notice the two sentences that I underlined and bolded. Did you mean to say these things because from my POV, you are arguing FOR SSM. Because your second sentence in the second bolded sentence makes no sense to the first and is contrary to it. Carlita, I know you say you are not Christian here but every single post you have written of late makes me believe you are. No one argues this strongly FOR Christians ideals and moral stands who is not a Christian. And both sentences I underlined are called Freudian slips, btw.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I want you to notice the two sentences that I underlined and bolded. Did you mean to say these things because from my POV, you are arguing FOR SSM. Because your second sentence in the second bolded sentence makes no sense to the first and is contrary to it. Carlita, I know you say you are not Christian here but every single post you have written of late makes me believe you are. No one argues this strongly FOR Christians ideals and moral stands who is not a Christian. And both sentences I underlined are called Freudian slips, btw.

Please respect my views, I am not christian just as I am not a mathematician but there are some things in scripture that I objectively agree with according to what is written just as math; and (very important word here) the former is not my personal belief.

In other words, I agree what scripture says according to scripture but its not my personal belief. Im not Christian I just understand why Christians say what they do since I had a personal relationship with the Church.



Im not arguing for same-sex marriage. That wasnt the point of the conversation.

If I did argue for it, I cant use the Bible because one, the Bible doesnt mention it and two, all scripture says otherwise.

 

[Daniel-David-Joseph]

Oh gosh. There are too many quotes to list in addition to the common ones you heard already from believers. Why would you think according to the Bible that same-sex coupling is not lust?
Where in the Bible does it look kindly to same-sex relations?
Gosh, I should just stop here and have to think why youd ask this.
Anyway, my point:
Same-sex marriage is not in the Bible.
All scripture prooves otherwise
Why would you assume or claim that it is right or allowed?
What scripture are you basing this on?
Cant get more simplier than that.

I don't know what the Bible says or doesn't say about same sex marriage, I haven't studied it with that in mind. In any case, for me, the Bible is not the last word when it comes to what God wants.

A Question in a dream:
"How do you know what God wants?"

The Answer:
"You only know by looking in your heart, if you try to find out by reading a book - you just end up memorizing rules. You have to look inside your heart to know what God wants."

Religion, and that includes the Bible is a mingling of ultimate truth and political marketing. It's the truths that bring us together and the marketing which pull us apart. I believe one of the most important tasks for religion in the 21st century is to let go of the lies and myths and reinforce the common ground of higher truth that connects us all.

For me, sometimes higher truth comes in the form of a dream...

I dream a dream in which Jesus pulls a blue book from a shelf above my head and reads aloud the following passage:

"Religion needs a new rule, and that's the rule that has to do with love. The absolute right of people to have sex with each other is the right to propagate the species, but there is also a conditional right, a right based upon the desire to have sexual love as the foundation of the relationship."

Sexual love can exist between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman or a man and a man. It is, in my opinion the God-given right of every human being to love who they want to love and if they love they should be able to marry. That's what Jesus says to me in my dreams and it feels right in my heart. If that's not what it says in the Bible, then perhaps the Bible needs to change.

theshifting.org

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't know what the Bible says or doesn't say about same sex marriage. In any case, for me, the Bible is not the last word when it comes to what God wants.

A Question in a dream:
"How do you know what God wants?"

The Answer:
"You only know by looking in your heart, if you try to find out by reading a book - you just end up memorizing rules. You have to look inside your heart to know what God wants."

Religion, and that includes the Bible is a mingling of ultimate truth and political marketing. It's the truths that bring us together and the marketing which pull us apart. I believe one of the most important tasks for religion in the 21st century is to let go of the lies and myths and reinforce the common ground of higher truth that connects us all.

For me, sometimes higher truth comes in the form of a dream...

I dream a dream in which Jesus pulls a blue book from a shelf above my head and reads aloud the following passage:

"Religion needs a new rule, and that's the rule that has to do with love. The absolute right of people to have sex with each other is the right to propagate the species, but there is also a conditional right, a right based upon the desire to have sexual love as the foundation of the relationship."

Sexual love can exist between a man and a woman, a woman and a woman or a man and a man. It is, in my opinion the God-given right of every human being to love who they want to love and if they love they should be able to marry. That's what Jesus says to me in my dreams and it feels right in my heart. If that's not what it says in the Bible, then perhaps the Bible needs to change.

Thank you for sharing that. I understand. I agree with love can exist between two men and two women. I am lesbian myself and know first hand about that type of attraction to another woman.

My basic point was talking strictly from scripture. Outside of that, if god isnt confined to scripture Id be unnerved if he denied thousands of homosexuals the right to receive his blessings with the ones they love. Its not my call.

Just stating what I read and how it was explained.

 

[JoStories]

Why would I assume that there is a reason that same-sex marriage is approved when everything says the opposite?

Why would you assume there are exclusions to marriage in scripture? Personal opinion? Your belief?

What are those exclusions to hetereosexual marriage based on?
What scriptures provide evidence that you can assume marriage is between anyone but male and female?

I mean, I disagree with the Bible; that doesnt mean I personally can change it to meet my opinions just because it isnt mentioned in scripture. (Me personally not a generalization)

There are no scriptures th

Why would I assume that there is a reason that same-sex marriage is approved when everything says the opposite?

Why would you assume there are exclusions to marriage in scripture? Personal opinion? Your belief?

What are those exclusions to hetereosexual marriage based on?
What scriptures provide evidence that you can assume marriage is between anyone but male and female?

I mean, I disagree with the Bible; that doesnt mean I personally can change it to meet my opinions just because it isnt mentioned in scripture. (Me personally not a generalization)

Nothing in that scripture specifically says opposite anywhere. What exclusions are you indicating? There is only one reference, that being man and woman, no where does it say that is the one and only type of relationship. There is no scripture that says it is okay but then does it say it is prohibited. That is my view of this. And considering I am not Christian, my view may be biased.

 

[JoStories]

Albright was only one source I used. His qualifications as a Bible scholar are impeccable. I am not an academic. I was educated, trained, and spent a quarter of a century evaluating evidence as my profession. I use the legal rules of evidence in these matters. There are no artificial time limits, nor is bias simply assumed, without it being proven. Academia also uses rules, but for most of us the rules serve little purpose. Evidence is evidence, unless it can be impeached on a variety of grounds that can be proven to that specific piece of evidence

Well, as one of those professor who live in those proverbial white towers on university grounds, I can say that no one within that venue would use a reference that old, unless, as I noted, there is reason and most of the time,, it better be damned good. I have no idea what evaluating evidence means but that reference; Albright, is not acceptable by current theology scholars and acceptable rules of academia.