Is Christianity coherent?

[RESOLUTION]

Including the majority of Christians.

Christ said: " Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom Heaven.
As I said God tells us through the Prophets and Holy Men of God, the end from the beginning?
Does yours?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It is? I didn't even know we had a "worldview". Except maybe that the bible indicates the world never gets all rosey, wars continue and rumors of wars, there is a march towards an oppressive global government, sin increases towards the end. Yeah, seems fairly accurate.

You weren't aware that there is a Christian worldview?

It's metaphysics is radically different from that of the secular humanist worldview, for example. Christians believe that gods, angels, devils, heaven, hell, the soul, and an afterlife exist, and that prayer can change physical reality the way gravity and change a trajectory. The humanist believes none of that.

Christian epistemology is also radically different from its humanist counterpart. Christianity teaches that truth can be discerned by faith, and that a god speaks to them. The humanist looks to evidence and reason to determine what is true.

Christian moral theory is also radically different from its humanist counterpart. Christianity teaches that moral truth is arrived at by reading a book and accepting its dicta based on the authority of the source. The rational ethics of humanism teach that right and wrong are determined by people, that moral values are relative and not absolute or objectively real, and right and wrong ought to be determined by reason and empathy.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Christ said: " Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom Heaven.
As I said God tells us through the Prophets and Holy Men of God, the end from the beginning?
Does yours?

Same view as yours for our God is the GOD of Jesus pbuh. Everything is written and goes to God's plan.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What if God foresaw changing his mind? Since the plan God started with has the same outcome originally intended before changing his mind, we can assume it was part of the original plan. So the Omiscient being calculated changing his mind here and there from the beginning.

This is where the incoherence comes into play. We are told that God exists outside of time, yet does things that have a before and after like changing his mind (new covenants) and answering prayers.

We are told that He is perfect, but that He changes his mind. Was His mind perfect before He changed it? If so, it isn't now. Did it become perfect with that change? If so, it wasn't perfect before.

There really quite a bit of this kind of incoherence in Christian theology. We are told that God created everything and is omnipotent, but He could not have created consciousness. Consciousness has to exist before any voluntary act.

Nor could he have created whatever laws keep God godlike. What keeps God's mind from deteriorating? What keeps His thoughts in it? Where does His power come from? To simply say that God wills these things is incoherent.

It's also incoherent to say that God can create ex nihilo. Here, we're postulating a cause having an effect on that which doesn't exist yet. One can read or say the words, and if he doesn't think about them, there is no problem. But once we examine the implications of these ideas, we understand that they're incoherent.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes. It was planned by the aliens who created the simulation program we're involved in. All religions and things built by human hands came from information called the beast.

Alien explanation is more coherent than the traditional belief system with the Fall and Original Sin, and based on the mythological origin in the myths of Genesis.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Yes, it is coherent if you believe it to be true. I'd say all religions are coherent to the people who believe them to be true. They all provide an answer for "why things are the way they are", they are complete systems that many people find appealing. The sticking point is whether you think religion provides good answers, I'd say no. I don't think "The Fall" makes much sense, I cannot see why the deity continues to punish thousands of generations for something our supposed ancestors did. I cannot see why the deity would leave the devil in charge of the Earth either, seems a tad reckless to say the least. I cannot see why the deity would "magic" itself into the womb of a woman, to be born as a man so it could sacrifice itself to itself at the age of thirty something, in order to "save" mankind. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny as far as I'm concerned.

You seem to be using the word coherent as a synonym for comforting or reassuring. I see coherence in this context as meaning logical consistency and lack of internal contradiction. I've accumulated a list of some of these logical inconsistencies, which I'll tuck away in a spoiler:

Spoiler

[1] An omniscient being that grants free will to others

[2] An omniscient being with free will itself - one that both knows what he will do, yet is able to make decisions ad hoc and change the future at will

[3] A perfect being needing to be worshiped

[4] A perfect being that changes its mind

[5] A perfect being that makes mistakes or contradicts itself

[6] A perfect being that creates or alters - things either weren't perfect then or aren't now.

[7] A non-spacial being being omnipresent

[8] An onmibenevolent being that permits evil and allows suffering

[9] A perfectly just being that punishes innocents such as descendants and bystanders.

[10] A merciful being that damns without hope of forgiveness from hell.

[11] Anything existing, persisting, thinking or acting outside of time. Those verbs, like all verbs, imply an interval of time with a before, a now, and an after

[12] An omnipresent being from whom we can be separated.

[13] An omniscient being that tests people

[14] An omnipotent being that wants anything

[15] An omnibenevolent being that exhibits wrath and tortures souls

[16] An omnibenevolent being that unleashes a master demon on earth

[17] An omniscient, omnipotent being that wants to be universally known (and loved) but whose existence is still in dispute by most of the world.

[18] An omniscient and omnipotent being that can both know everything that will happen and still change its mind and make things otherwise.

[19] An omnipotent being incapable of being in the presence of sin or doing evil.

[20] An omniscient, omnipotent god that loves and protects us, yet there is so much unnecessary suffering

[21] An omniscient and omnipotent god. If it knows what is coming next, it is powerless to change that.

 

[shunyadragon]

Same view as yours for our God is the GOD of Jesus pbuh. Everything is written and goes to God's plan.

Claims of what is God(?) plan is too contradictory and conflicting among Christian churches and Islam to be a coherent plan.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Claims of what is God(?) plan is too contradictory and conflicting among Christian churches and Islam to be a coherent plan.

So you don't believe God had a plan to send back Jesus pbuh and reveal the awaited Imam Mahdi pbuh?

 

[Kemosloby]

This is where the incoherence comes into play. We are told that God exists outside of time, yet does things that have a before and after like changing his mind (new covenants) and answering prayers.

We are told that He is perfect, but that He changes his mind. Was His mind perfect before He changed it? If so, it isn't now. Did it become perfect with that change? If so, it wasn't perfect before.

There really quite a bit of this kind of incoherence in Christian theology. We are told that God created everything and is omnipotent, but He could not have created consciousness. Consciousness has to exist before any voluntary act.

Nor could he have created whatever laws keep God godlike. What keeps God's mind from deteriorating? What keeps His thoughts in it? Where does His power come from? To simply say that God wills these things is incoherent.

It's also incoherent to say that God can create ex nihilo. Here, we're postulating a cause having an effect on that which doesn't exist yet. One can read or say the words, and if he doesn't think about them, there is no problem. But once we examine the implications of these ideas, we understand that they're incoherent.

That's not a worldview. Worldview is like, why did God almost let Hillary be president. To cause fear, to see if we would question our faith? Who knows.

 

[columbus]

Unsurprisingly, I voted "no".

The fundamental premise of both Christian and Islamic ideology is incoherent. It's internally inconsistent and doesn't match the observable reality. It is premised on an image of God that is both "Omnimax" and also very limited.
By Omnimax, I mean "omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, usually with omnibenevolent thrown in".

The overwhelming majority of religious apologetics are attempts to reconcile these two mutually exclusive characteristics. God wants us to do things in certain ways, and will punish us if we don't. But He can't come out and tell us this Himself, because the love, worship and obedience of an informed and rational person isn't worth much. He prefers to make us guess which interpretation of the many prophets and teachers from centuries ago are Really What He Meant. God requires us to have Faith in the correct interpretation of the correct prophet's followers to "pass the test" and prove ourselves worthy.

The explanations given for this state of affairs are themselves generally incoherent. Giving people unambiguous information interferes with their free will somehow seems the most common. Another frequent one is Might Makes Right and the Creator doesn't have to care how much suffering His Plan creates, because He's God and you're not.

Neither of these explanations are particularly impressive to a rational mind. I understand why they would work for the primitive folks who invented the religions, but not for modern people with our centuries of accumulated knowledge and moral improvement.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

So you don't believe God had a plan to send back Jesus pbuh and reveal the awaited Imam Mahdi pbuh?

I believe God has a plan in progressive revelation and fulfillment of prophesy, but the way it is presently believed by traditional Judaism, Christianity and Islam is that there is no change beyond the present traditional views of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. These religions in one way or another presently reject the concept of progressive revelation, and the return with a new Revelation beyond their present beliefs. It falls in line with Judaism rejecting Christianity and Islam, Christianity rejects Islam, and Islam rejecting the Baha'i Faith or any other possible future Revelation, They each consider their own belief system the final word from God.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I believe God has a plan in progressive revelation and fulfillment of prophesy, but the way it is presently believed by traditional Judaism, Christianity and Islam is that there is no change beyond the present traditional views of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. These religions in one way or another presently reject the concept of progressive revelation, and the return with a new Revelation beyond their present beliefs. It falls in line with Judaism rejecting Christianity and Islam, Christianity rejects Islam, and Islam rejecting the Baha'i Faith or any other possible future Revelation, They each consider their own belief system the final word from God.

Ok so regardless of which plan you think is correct, you acknowledge God has a coherent plan.

 

[osgart]

anybody believing in Noah ark is definitely incoherent, that and the just paying for the unjust by way of execution so they can go to heaven is literally insane to believe that.

take your Beulah land and stuff it christians, sounds more like insanity.
plenty of good people that ain't Christians will see heaven before you all. your soul judgment sucks, and is sinful.

adios

 

[Sha'irullah]

Christianity is as coherent as the ramblings of a schizophrenic on quaaludes. I wouldn't bet so much as a nickel on the contradictions in the Bible and its profound ability to rebut verses multiple times in a matter of a few pages.

The fact that Christians claim that it is authored by multiple people really shows, yet somehow they claim consistency in it.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ok so regardless of which plan you think is correct, you acknowledge God has a coherent plan.

My reference as to lacking a coherent plan is directly referring to the problem with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. When all cultures and religions are taken into consideration, and the history of all humanity from the perspective of the belief in a universal God, there is apparently a progressive evolving spiritual plan for humanity that goes beyond any one religion in history. The bottom line is, yes God has a plan, but at present Judaism, Christianity and Islam lack a coherent plan that takes into consideration all of humanity and history beyond their own singular perspective.

Likewise from the secular view humanity evolved both physically and culturally toward a more universal perspective. The advantage of the secular view over ancient religions is that it does recognize change over time, and that change is a positive direction for humanity.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

You seem to be using the word coherent as a synonym for comforting or reassuring.

No, not at all, I meant coherent as in "making sense". The world described in The Lord of the Rings is coherent, it has leading characters, it has a narrative, there are forces for good and there are forces for evil. It seems to make a moral message. It may leave a whole lot of questions unanswered (like religion) but you cannot say it is incoherent. Religion, all religion, I would say is similar.

I didn't mean religion is "comforting or reassuring" (though it is true to say it is to the people who believe it to be true), so sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Same view as yours for our God is the GOD of Jesus pbuh. Everything is written and goes to God's plan.

No! YHWH is the God of Jesus and there is only one way Holy Men receive the Word of God and that is by the Holy Spirit. Christ bearing witness to that very truth. " My Words are Spirit and they are LIFE."
When you see how Joseph Smith, said he had the book of Mormon given to him. Golden plates brought by Angels and he wrote them down, we see how he was deceived. Any religion who receives words not given directly by the Holy Spirit and God, is not receiving Gods words or teachings. I appreciate everyone believes his own thing.
But the Word of God in OT and NT shows Prophets of God received the Word from God through the Spirit.
Angels brought messages but the Words given to the Prophets were from God himself.
That is what I find in the Bible. I see no reason to doubt what God clearly shows us.

 

[idav]

Is there a good reason for why everything happens in the Christian worldview?

In Christianity, it's like God hates it's own creation, mainly humanity which is why God is constantly needing appeasement in the stories.

 

[Muslim-UK]

My reference as to lacking a coherent plan is directly referring the problem with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. When all cultures and religions are taken into consideration, and the history of all humanity from the perspective of the belief in a universal God, there is apparently a progressive evolving spiritual plan for humanity that goes beyond any one religion in history. The bottom line is, yes God has a plan, but at present Judaism, Christianity and Islam lack a coherent plan that takes into consideration all of humanity and history beyond their own singular perspective.

Likewise from the secular view humanity evolved both physically and culturally toward a more universal perspective.

The plan in all three Abrahamic faiths is for the Messiah to return and rule the Whole World with justice. No more war, hunger or poverty.
Seems pretty coherent to me.

With regards to the main Abrahamic faiths not having a plan for non believers; they are free to not believe and enjoy this World like anyone else, as long as they obey the Laws of the land where they reside. Most of them were sent Messengers preaching Monotheism, and are free to accept or reject that message.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Christianity is as coherent as the ramblings of a schizophrenic on quaaludes. I wouldn't bet so much as a nickel on the contradictions in the Bible and its profound ability to rebut verses multiple times in a matter of a few pages.

The fact that Christians claim that it is authored by multiple people really shows, yet somehow they claim consistency in it.

God always has the last word. Yourself and many others, cannot understand the bible because you do not know God himself. No other book has proclaimed and done what YHWH has foretold and done.

Other religions make no claims because if it, did, then God would show them to be false.
The One thing I notice outside the Abraham and Christ Covenants is that no other religion has one.
That God foretold through Moses that

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

The Word of God is clear and I SEE no one claiming to be a PROPHET such as Joseph Smith or even Mahomet have actually foretold or made prophecies.
The bible has shown God foretelling things through his Prophets which come to pass.

Does it not make you think why you do not understand the bible as far as God speaking and his people?