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Is Christianity Inherently Immoral?

Moonjuice

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
What is morality in a godless universe? Seems to me it would be whatever you want it to be at the moment...
You hit the nail directly on the head. You can see in human history that it has always been whatever we think it is at any given moment. That’s how you get killing animals as a sacrifice to god was considered moral just a few thousand years ago. Killing girls for not being virgins on their wedding day was also a moral act as well. Killing those who refused to believe was still considered moral by Christians just 800 years ago. Human slavery was still considered moral by Christians, just a couple hundred years ago. Seems clear to me, we are getting better at it.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
If I were to make a list of the top 10 reasons why I lost all faith in the Christian narrative, I think the fundamental “fall of man & need for salvation” concept would be #1. Could this be the most immoral religious idea still in practice today? Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.

For those who don’t know, this is quick overview of the basic Christian salvation narrative:

- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

- God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.

- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus), then allow himself to be brutally, yet temporarily murdered. 3 days later, he came back to life and went back to heaven. This barbaric human sacrifice of himself, somehow allows himself to forgive us of the rules we break, based on the rule breaking nature we are born with.

- If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.

- Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.

- BTW, He loves you, that is why he is offering you this chance. Take it, or die.

Indoctrination is powerful! It’s not hard to come up with a creative interpretation that tells the same story in a way that makes you feel happy about this offer. It’s a wonderful gift to be born into these circumstances where he offers to save you from his punishment. He loves you, he’ll protect you in this life, and will reward you with eternal life in paradise after you die.

If I wasn’t born in a Christian home, with a Christian family, attending a Christian school, surrounded by Christian friends, I’m convinced that an unbiased look at this basic concept could have led me to believe this is nothing more than a cult of human sacrifice, born from a cult of barbaric animal sacrifice. Not so easy to see from the inside.

Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.

I don't believe the story-line and message in scripture you laid out and what I've practice and heard from all others is healthy-if going by the theology. I can't think of another known religion, even in part, that has human (death) sacrifice as part of its tenants.

As for how christians live because of it varies. Some are living with their theology but they don't tell anyone what they practice so you can see it in their behaviors. They can believe anything or anyone, but their behaviors and character is healthy. I personally don't care if they believe horses can fly (no pun), but if their theology leads them to harm others at the expense of their beliefs, then that's where I disagree. Which is hard because you have to determine whether they are interpreting their beliefs that harm people or is it their actual belief system.

Christianity has a guilt-play in it, so I cannot imagine anyone indoctrinated in it. Converts (guessing) tend to be a bit more introspective at first but once in, I can't tell the difference. All in all, it's best to do what's healthy for your well-being. Since it's based on beliefs, if you don't believe, the theology doesn't apply to you.

Which is weird, honestly, because if belief makes something true (say god's play in your life), than disbelief would make him basically non-existent without play. So, your belief is pretty much making god into existence. Most things that exist are not dependent on belief... so, I think you did the right thing.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

Reminds me of this

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
If you had ever experienced the actual presence of God you would not think that way.
Once a person has been there they cannot easily go back to disbelief.
What I experienced was the contrast between reality and fantasy.

Make believe only takes one so far before admitting that reality dictates the parameters of theology, and not the other way around.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
To answer the thread's question I think Christianity philosophically is wrong which makes vicarious redemption to be wrong also
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
For many reasons, Christianity is immoral, unethical, and inappropriate to use as a guide for our relations with other people.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.
I personally feel that its chief immorality is that it pseodolifts the requirement of effort to acquire virtuous deeds.

On a note perhaps unrelated to the OP, I also feel vicarious redemption to be untrue. Not sure if that adds to its immorality though.

In my opinion.
 

Moonjuice

In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
I personally feel that its chief immorality is that it pseodolifts the requirement of effort to acquire virtuous deeds.
Well said. That’s exactly the part I find immoral. There’s no reward for being a good human being for the sake of basic human solidarity.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
First, no idea about the course of history can be immoral if it is true. If historical actions and consequences are factually accurate, how can they be said to be immoral?

Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.
You lived it, loved it, felt it and shared it for years, but you can't express it without significant departures from the actual idea?

Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.
The Christian view is that the serpent is in fact not spared, nor is its offspring, nor is the true evil behind it.

God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.
The Christian view is that no one faces damnation excepting for their own freely chosen acts that defy morality.

If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.
Can you think of a single crime that "I am a good guy in other ways" will get you out of?

Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.
Above you're not happy because salvation in Christianity is too strict, here that it is too broadly offered. I'd say you are confused in your criticism.

Or perhaps, your real target is that Christian salvation is not earned at all. You can never merit it through virtuous action or righteous behavior. It is only through lowering yourself, being humble, kneeling down and begging.
 
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AlexanderG

Active Member
It has always seemed like the core tenets of Christianity are immoral. Granted, there are 30,000+ denominations of Christianity, and anyone can believe anything and self-identify as a Christian, but referring to the most common propositions:

1. It is immoral to create beings who don't yet understand right from wrong, and then tell them not to eat a fruit, and then when they eat the fruit because they didn't understand how or why it is wrong to disobey, to punish them for it. This holds especially true if god had the ability to create Adam and Eve however he wanted, and he chose to create them knowing in advance that they would disobey under the scenario that he orchestrated.

2. It is immoral to punish an innocent person for someone else's crimes. It is immoral to do so as a prerequisite for forgiveness. If you wronged me and I could only forgive you after I had first punched my daughter, I would be considered a psychopath.

3. It is immoral to torture anyone for eternity under any circumstances. Period. A loving being could never do such a thing, or else the term "love" becomes functionally meaningless.

4. It is immoral to punish people for not loving you, especially when you chose to create them knowing they would not love you. This seems like the intentional knowing creation of infinite(?) suffering and is the pinnacle of what I would call evil.

5. It is immoral to expect or demand to be worshipped. In my mind, anyone who does so is immediately unworthy of actually being worshipped.

I think I could come up with more, but I'm off to bed!
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.
I wouldn't call the idea immoral, or Christianity for that matter.
(In fact, only actions can be (im)moral, not ideas, ideologies, thoughts or people.)

So the real question is "Does being a Christian, i.e. believing as you described, lead to immoral actions?". And again I'd have to answer in the negative. Christians act not more immoral than people of other religions and only slightly more immoral than people without religion. It seems as if religion has little to do with the morality of peoples actions.

I'm also not a fan of the idea of "original sin" but for an other reason. It conveys a negative image of man. I think that is psychologically harmful. It is not good for self esteem and it also leads to unnecessary fear of others.

Most people are good, most of the time.

And most people know this, even Christians. Experience trumps ideology. But that ideology, repeated often enough, can make people question the validity of their experience - which may lead to lowered self esteem - which may lead to immoral behaviour, explaining the slightly higher criminal behaviour in Christians.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If I were to make a list of the top 10 reasons why I lost all faith in the Christian narrative, I think the fundamental “fall of man & need for salvation” concept would be #1. Could this be the most immoral religious idea still in practice today? Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.

For those who don’t know, this is quick overview of the basic Christian salvation narrative:

- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

- God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.

- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus), then allow himself to be brutally, yet temporarily murdered. 3 days later, he came back to life and went back to heaven. This barbaric human sacrifice of himself, somehow allows himself to forgive us of the rules we break, based on the rule breaking nature we are born with.

- If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.

- Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.

- BTW, He loves you, that is why he is offering you this chance. Take it, or die.

Indoctrination is powerful! It’s not hard to come up with a creative interpretation that tells the same story in a way that makes you feel happy about this offer. It’s a wonderful gift to be born into these circumstances where he offers to save you from his punishment. He loves you, he’ll protect you in this life, and will reward you with eternal life in paradise after you die.

If I wasn’t born in a Christian home, with a Christian family, attending a Christian school, surrounded by Christian friends, I’m convinced that an unbiased look at this basic concept could have led me to believe this is nothing more than a cult of human sacrifice, born from a cult of barbaric animal sacrifice. Not so easy to see from the inside.

Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.
I believe that the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory, not a true story. I believe that the story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise is a symbol. The story contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of many explanations.

I believe that there was a real man called Adam and that He was the first Prophet of the Adamic Cycle of religion. I also believe we inherited the sins of Adam, but not because he ate an apple from a tree. This is how I believe the descendants of Adam inherited the sins of Adam:

The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of God to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.

The full explanation of what I believe about the allegory is in this chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

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How I believe Adam brought sin into the world and how Christ saved us from that sin is explained below:

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.

The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.

Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.

Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment.

This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?

Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-120

Read more: 29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
[QUOTE
If I were to make a list of the top 10 reasons why I lost all faith in the Christian narrative, I think the fundamental “fall of man & need for salvation” concept would be #1. Could this be the most immoral religious idea still in practice today? Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.

For those who don’t know, this is quick overview of the basic Christian salvation narrative:

- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

- God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.

- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus), then allow himself to be brutally, yet temporarily murdered. 3 days later, he came back to life and went back to heaven. This barbaric human sacrifice of himself, somehow allows himself to forgive us of the rules we break, based on the rule breaking nature we are born with.

- If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.

- Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.

- BTW, He loves you, that is why he is offering you this chance. Take it, or die.

Indoctrination is powerful! It’s not hard to come up with a creative interpretation that tells the same story in a way that makes you feel happy about this offer. It’s a wonderful gift to be born into these circumstances where he offers to save you from his punishment. He loves you, he’ll protect you in this life, and will reward you with eternal life in paradise after you die.

If I wasn’t born in a Christian home, with a Christian family, attending a Christian school, surrounded by Christian friends, I’m convinced that an unbiased look at this basic concept could have led me to believe this is nothing more than a cult of human sacrifice, born from a cult of barbaric animal sacrifice. Not so easy to see from the inside.

Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.
Christianity as a religius teaching is morally good in my understanding, but people are often far from being morally good. So it is not the teaching that is wrong, it is the people who do the immoral
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If I were to make a list of the top 10 reasons why I lost all faith in the Christian narrative, I think the fundamental “fall of man & need for salvation” concept would be #1. Could this be the most immoral religious idea still in practice today? Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.

For those who don’t know, this is quick overview of the basic Christian salvation narrative:

- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

- God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.

- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus), then allow himself to be brutally, yet temporarily murdered. 3 days later, he came back to life and went back to heaven. This barbaric human sacrifice of himself, somehow allows himself to forgive us of the rules we break, based on the rule breaking nature we are born with.

- If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.

- Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.

- BTW, He loves you, that is why he is offering you this chance. Take it, or die.

Indoctrination is powerful! It’s not hard to come up with a creative interpretation that tells the same story in a way that makes you feel happy about this offer. It’s a wonderful gift to be born into these circumstances where he offers to save you from his punishment. He loves you, he’ll protect you in this life, and will reward you with eternal life in paradise after you die.

If I wasn’t born in a Christian home, with a Christian family, attending a Christian school, surrounded by Christian friends, I’m convinced that an unbiased look at this basic concept could have led me to believe this is nothing more than a cult of human sacrifice, born from a cult of barbaric animal sacrifice. Not so easy to see from the inside.

Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.

These are misconceptions born of misinterpretations. Tye world is extremely blest that Jesus walked the earth and renewed and revitalised the dying spirit of humanity and resurrecting it to higher planes of love and sacrifice. There are many wonderful Christians today who adorn our world with heavenly deeds and virtues and I have had the bounty of meeting many of them.

Humanity is not perfect but there exists today many beautiful kind and loving Christians.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You hit the nail directly on the head. You can see in human history that it has always been whatever we think it is at any given moment. That’s how you get killing animals as a sacrifice to god was considered moral just a few thousand years ago. Killing girls for not being virgins on their wedding day was also a moral act as well. Killing those who refused to believe was still considered moral by Christians just 800 years ago. Human slavery was still considered moral by Christians, just a couple hundred years ago. Seems clear to me, we are getting better at it.

You have mentioned a lot of immoral things Christians did. But do you blame it on Christianity? Do you really blame all the evil that you come across on the theology or whatever ideology? Also, do you practice the same attribution to the good stuff?
 
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