Is Christianity Inherently Immoral?

[TagliatelliMonster]

What is morality in a godless universe? Seems to me it would be whatever you want it to be at the moment...

No.

 

[McBell]

What is morality in a godless universe? Seems to me it would be whatever you want it to be at the moment...

And that is exactly what we see.
That some people make the bold empty claim that some god or another supports their morality does not change it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And that is exactly what we see.
That some people make the bold empty claim that some god or another supports their morality does not change it.

You have that exactly backwards. My morality should line up with God's design for morality not the other way around.

 

[McBell]

You have that exactly backwards. My morality should line up with God's design for morality not the other way around.

Except for the fact that your claimed gods claimed morality differs (sometimes greatly) from other claimed gods claimed morality.
Yet they all fit in to the time and place the claims are claimed.

With the only difference being the claim that a claimed gods claimed morality is involved.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You have that exactly backwards. My morality should line up with God's design for morality not the other way around.

So I guess this means that you think slavery is ok (exodus 21) and homosexuals who have sex should be killed (Leviticus 20:13)?

 

[74x12]

If I were to make a list of the top 10 reasons why I lost all faith in the Christian narrative, I think the fundamental “fall of man & need for salvation” concept would be #1. Could this be the most immoral religious idea still in practice today? Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.

For those who don’t know, this is quick overview of the basic Christian salvation narrative:

- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

- God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.

- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus), then allow himself to be brutally, yet temporarily murdered. 3 days later, he came back to life and went back to heaven. This barbaric human sacrifice of himself, somehow allows himself to forgive us of the rules we break, based on the rule breaking nature we are born with.

- If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.

- Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.

- BTW, He loves you, that is why he is offering you this chance. Take it, or die.

Indoctrination is powerful! It’s not hard to come up with a creative interpretation that tells the same story in a way that makes you feel happy about this offer. It’s a wonderful gift to be born into these circumstances where he offers to save you from his punishment. He loves you, he’ll protect you in this life, and will reward you with eternal life in paradise after you die.

If I wasn’t born in a Christian home, with a Christian family, attending a Christian school, surrounded by Christian friends, I’m convinced that an unbiased look at this basic concept could have led me to believe this is nothing more than a cult of human sacrifice, born from a cult of barbaric animal sacrifice. Not so easy to see from the inside.

Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.

It's really simple. God would rather suffer some evil for awhile than not have good exist at all.

And God isn't sparing Satan as you say. Have you read the book of Revelation? Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Moonjuice]

It's really simple. God would rather suffer some evil for awhile than not have good exist at all.

God making himself suffer, is the only way to allow "good" to exist? You actually think that makes sense?

 

[74x12]

God making himself suffer, is the only way to allow "good" to exist? You actually think that makes sense?

I meant all of creation suffering evil. However you are correct that it would include God himself.

So for example without evil conditions showing mercy on others is impossible. If there is no need for charity (because everything is perfect) then it can't be given.

To bring all these good things into existence such as mercy, and kindness, forgiveness etc. evil must first exist.

 

[74x12]

So the idea is simple the 7 days of creation are not yet over. We are still in the creation phase. The 7th day is yet to come when God says that all things are "good". Because all things are not yet good. God is still working not resting yet. God is creating many things and bringing them into existence and perfecting the things which he has already made.

 

[Wildswanderer]

God making himself suffer, is the only way to allow "good" to exist? You actually think that makes sense?

It's the gospel. I think it makes perfect sense. Of course, it's backwards according to humanist thinking.

 

[1213]

...the basic Christian salvation narrative:
...As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).
...
- God changes his mind thousands of years later. ...
- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus),…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.....

I think it would be good to know that none of that can be suported properly with the Bible.

 

[Moonjuice]

I think it would be good to know that none of that can be suported properly with the Bible.

I disagree.

 

[sojourner]

If I were to make a list of the top 10 reasons why I lost all faith in the Christian narrative, I think the fundamental “fall of man & need for salvation” concept would be #1. Could this be the most immoral religious idea still in practice today? Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.

For those who don’t know, this is quick overview of the basic Christian salvation narrative:

- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

- God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.

- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus), then allow himself to be brutally, yet temporarily murdered. 3 days later, he came back to life and went back to heaven. This barbaric human sacrifice of himself, somehow allows himself to forgive us of the rules we break, based on the rule breaking nature we are born with.

- If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.

- Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.

- BTW, He loves you, that is why he is offering you this chance. Take it, or die.

Indoctrination is powerful! It’s not hard to come up with a creative interpretation that tells the same story in a way that makes you feel happy about this offer. It’s a wonderful gift to be born into these circumstances where he offers to save you from his punishment. He loves you, he’ll protect you in this life, and will reward you with eternal life in paradise after you die.

If I wasn’t born in a Christian home, with a Christian family, attending a Christian school, surrounded by Christian friends, I’m convinced that an unbiased look at this basic concept could have led me to believe this is nothing more than a cult of human sacrifice, born from a cult of barbaric animal sacrifice. Not so easy to see from the inside.

Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.

You’re not convinced because your theological take is skewed and misinformed.

 

[ajay0]

If I were to make a list of the top 10 reasons why I lost all faith in the Christian narrative, I think the fundamental “fall of man & need for salvation” concept would be #1. Could this be the most immoral religious idea still in practice today? Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.

For those who don’t know, this is quick overview of the basic Christian salvation narrative:

- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

- God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.

- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus), then allow himself to be brutally, yet temporarily murdered. 3 days later, he came back to life and went back to heaven. This barbaric human sacrifice of himself, somehow allows himself to forgive us of the rules we break, based on the rule breaking nature we are born with.

- If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.

- Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.

- BTW, He loves you, that is why he is offering you this chance. Take it, or die.

Indoctrination is powerful! It’s not hard to come up with a creative interpretation that tells the same story in a way that makes you feel happy about this offer. It’s a wonderful gift to be born into these circumstances where he offers to save you from his punishment. He loves you, he’ll protect you in this life, and will reward you with eternal life in paradise after you die.

If I wasn’t born in a Christian home, with a Christian family, attending a Christian school, surrounded by Christian friends, I’m convinced that an unbiased look at this basic concept could have led me to believe this is nothing more than a cult of human sacrifice, born from a cult of barbaric animal sacrifice. Not so easy to see from the inside.

Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.

I think much of this stuff is the usual metaphorical statements in every religion which are not meant to be taken literally. Some unfortunately take them literally and get into a mental mess.

I would say to just live the life of a christian through the teachings of love, compassion, mindfulness and virtuous conduct as Christ taught. This is all there is to follow as an ideal christian in precept and practice.

These are also the essential principles of the christian religion and the rest are just fantasies, undeciphered metaphors and trivia not worth breaking your head over.

 

[Moonjuice]

I think much of this stuff is the usual metaphorical statements in every religion which are not meant to be taken literally. Some unfortunately take them literally and get into a mental mess.

I would say to just live the life of a christian through the teachings of love, compassion, mindfulness and virtuous conduct as Christ taught. This is all there is to follow as an ideal christian in precept and practice.

These are also the essential principles of the christian religion and the rest are just fantasies, undeciphered metaphors and trivia not worth breaking your head over.

That is certainly a really nice way to look at it. However, if never ending happiness or suffering are at stake, understanding what is actually true is definitely worth breaking your head over. Not only do we need to know what is true, vs what is metaphorical, we need to understand the correct way to interpret everything in the Bible - or we could be led astray by simply not understanding the correct method for picking out the facts. If picking out the good parts is the best way to follow it, I’m not sure if it’s worthy to be followed. There’s good parts to pick out of every religion and good parts to pick out of the worldview of those who have no supernatural beliefs at all.

 

[Moonjuice]

You’re not convinced because your theological take is skewed and misinformed.

I disagree. My “take” is directly supported by scripture. That being said, if you think you have an un-skewed take, I know it can also be supported with scripture. And anyone who has an interpretation that is different from mine and yours, can also support it with scripture. What part is the most skewed?

 

[sojourner]

I disagree. My “take” is directly supported by scripture. That being said, if you think you have an un-skewed take, I know it can also be supported with scripture. And anyone who has an interpretation that is different from mine and yours, can also support it with scripture. What part is the most skewed?

Your take is supported by your interpretation of scripture. And your interpretation is demonstrably underinformed.

 

[1213]

I disagree.

Please explain why?

 

[Moonjuice]

Your take is supported by your interpretation of scripture. And your interpretation is demonstrably underinformed.

Your take is supported by your interpretation, is it not? To me, unless its the same way I interpret it, then your take is demonstrably underinformed. We can do this all day and we are both right to do so. It sure would be nice if there was only one way to interpret it.

 

[kjw47]

If I were to make a list of the top 10 reasons why I lost all faith in the Christian narrative, I think the fundamental “fall of man & need for salvation” concept would be #1. Could this be the most immoral religious idea still in practice today? Having lived it, loved it, felt it, shared it for years, it’s strange to have to admit, I think it might be.

For those who don’t know, this is quick overview of the basic Christian salvation narrative:

- God creates the first man and woman.

- God gives two commands; multiply the earth (incest is required, since your children will need to have sex with each other) and do not eat fruit from a particular tree.

- God allows an evil fallen angel (in the form of a talking serpent ) to trick humans into breaking the fruit eating rule. The only rule. As a result, all future humans are born with a natural instinct to disobey god (sin).

- God chooses to punish them, their children, their grandchildren. In fact, every human born from that point on. Sparing the evil talking snake that caused it all.

- God changes his mind thousands of years later. He decides that he wants to give humans a chance to save themselves from his punishment, which they deserve, because our ancestors broke the fruit eating rule, and live for all of eternity in heaven with him.

- Rather than forgiving us, he decides the best way to offer salvation is to send himself to earth in human form (Jesus), then allow himself to be brutally, yet temporarily murdered. 3 days later, he came back to life and went back to heaven. This barbaric human sacrifice of himself, somehow allows himself to forgive us of the rules we break, based on the rule breaking nature we are born with.

- If you can be convinced this has happened, with nothing more than hearsay to go by, this vicarious redemption can save you from his punishment. If not, you will not be saved. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are, what kind of honorable life you live, or how well you treat other humans or animals.

- Meanwhile…child rapists, murderers, and the worst scum of the earth can live forever in paradise with Jesus as well, earning salvation by simply believing the story and asking for forgiveness for all the child rape and murder.

- BTW, He loves you, that is why he is offering you this chance. Take it, or die.

Indoctrination is powerful! It’s not hard to come up with a creative interpretation that tells the same story in a way that makes you feel happy about this offer. It’s a wonderful gift to be born into these circumstances where he offers to save you from his punishment. He loves you, he’ll protect you in this life, and will reward you with eternal life in paradise after you die.

If I wasn’t born in a Christian home, with a Christian family, attending a Christian school, surrounded by Christian friends, I’m convinced that an unbiased look at this basic concept could have led me to believe this is nothing more than a cult of human sacrifice, born from a cult of barbaric animal sacrifice. Not so easy to see from the inside.

Can an idea like vicarious redemption be moral? I’m not convinced.

You have been taught error. Only those who repent( stop doing the sin) get forgiven( Acts 3:19) Jesus death only covers repented sin. So any regardless of their past can repent and be forgiven.
God did not come to earth. God sent another to the earth. The being speaking at Proverbs 8 is the one named Jesus as a mortal. The one who will subject himself to his God and Father after he hands the kingdom back.( 1Corinthians 15:24-28)
The problem with most who think they follow Jesus is that they listen to men with white collars over what Jesus actually teaches. A very serious error.