Is Christianity polytheistic?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Trinity is montheism. Polythism is a denial of the Trinity.
Tritheism is a polytheism and a so denial of the Trinity.

But modalism and partialism are also denial of the Trinity, and that's how many people end up interpreting the Trinity so that it makes sense.

The problem is that the formulation of the Trinity is irrational; it violates the transitive property of equality. People will naturally try to resolve the contradictions in their beliefs, but the problem with Trinitarianism is that if you resolve the contradictions - however you do it - it's not Trinitarianism any more.

 

[wellwisher]

Is Christianity polytheistic?

For me, the short answer is: maybe!

But what do you think?

I get that each element is supposed to be a part of a greater unified whole - the triune Godhead

And yes, there can only be one Godhead

And I get that The Holy Trinity is three persons who are consubstantial with one another

But I cannot help but think that this amounts to polytheism!

Here they are (in no particular order):

View attachment 47572
Here's one member

View attachment 47573
Here's another

View attachment 47574
And here's the third

As I said, I get that these three distinct persons are of one essence

But I am beginning to think that the word "polytheistic" covers Christianity better than "monotheistic"

But I still believe in this:

View attachment 47575

It's just that I think this arrangement amounts to Polytheism

(And I don't deny The Trinity)​

The best way to explain the trinity is with an example. Picture a man, name Joe, who is a husband to his wife, a father to his children, and a child to his parents. He is one person, playing different roles, depending on who is dealing with. This is not a multiple personality disorder. Rather this is a way for a person to optimize his influence on his family. Polytheism was more like a multiple personalty disorder.

Joe is intimate with his wife in ways he is not with his children and parents. He is respectful of his parents, in ways that differ for his wife and children. He is firm but fair with his children, in ways unique to them. He is one person with three hats. This is different from a multiple personality disorder; polytheism. In that case, each hat becomes a unique person instead of the same person specialized to needs.

God the father is how God relates to the Jews and Arabs. God the son is how God relatives to the Christians While God the Holy Spirit is how God relates to those with the charism of faith in the Holy Spirit.

An interesting scenario is holiday time when all the family gets to together. In this case, Joe has to deal with all this his family at the same time, and often together. His parents may want spend time with his children, spoiling them. Joe has learn how to be respectful of this parents, even when they will make it harder for him to be firm but fair with his children. He does not remain with only the three original masks. Or his wife and mother may both wish to control Joe, so Joe has to walk the line and not alienate either. This is where the father and son, or the son and Holy Spirit, or even the father, son and holy spirit, may all have to merge into one or two to optimize the day.

In polytheism, each god is specialized and autonomous all by itself. Aphrodite was a unique person who specialized in love and desire. Zeus is separate and distinct. The trinity is one person with three masks. Someone with a multiple personality disorder would have more than one autonomous personality, that may not be on the same page as the rest of the characters. The trinity is alway on the same page in terms of the needs of the family.

 

[Eddi]

The trinity is one person with three masks

But what is Joe like without any mask on?

What is he like when he is all alone?

Is he ever his own true self or is he always fulfilling some other role?

Who is behind the mask?

 

[firedragon]

Is Christianity polytheistic?

For me, the short answer is: maybe!

But what do you think?

I get that each element is supposed to be a part of a greater unified whole - the triune Godhead

And yes, there can only be one Godhead

And I get that The Holy Trinity is three persons who are consubstantial with one another

But I cannot help but think that this amounts to polytheism!

Here they are (in no particular order):

View attachment 47572
Here's one member

View attachment 47573
Here's another

View attachment 47574
And here's the third

As I said, I get that these three distinct persons are of one essence

But I am beginning to think that the word "polytheistic" covers Christianity better than "monotheistic"

But I still believe in this:

View attachment 47575

It's just that I think this arrangement amounts to Polytheism

(And I don't deny The Trinity)​

I have never thought the trinity is polytheism. Though it has the same polytheistic aspect of more than one deity, it is also having a monotheistic quality of one essence. Yet, this was a 4th century development, thus there are many trinities, while one would call the other a heresy.

Nevertheless, it is not very easy to call it polytheistic or monotheistic. Not so easy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The best way to explain the trinity is with an example. Picture a man, name Joe, who is a husband to his wife, a father to his children, and a child to his parents. He is one person, playing different roles, depending on who is dealing with. This is not a multiple personality disorder. Rather this is a way for a person to optimize his influence on his family. Polytheism was more like a multiple personalty disorder.

Joe is intimate with his wife in ways he is not with his children and parents. He is respectful of his parents, in ways that differ for his wife and children. He is firm but fair with his children, in ways unique to them. He is one person with three hats. This is different from a multiple personality disorder; polytheism. In that case, each hat becomes a unique person instead of the same person specialized to needs.

God the father is how God relates to the Jews and Arabs. God the son is how God relatives to the Christians While God the Holy Spirit is how God relates to those with the charism of faith in the Holy Spirit.

An interesting scenario is holiday time when all the family gets to together. In this case, Joe has to deal with all this his family at the same time, and often together. His parents may want spend time with his children, spoiling them. Joe has learn how to be respectful of this parents, even when they will make it harder for him to be firm but fair with his children. He does not remain with only the three original masks. Or his wife and mother may both wish to control Joe, so Joe has to walk the line and not alienate either. This is where the father and son, or the son and Holy Spirit, or even the father, son and holy spirit, may all have to merge into one or two to optimize the day.

In polytheism, each god is specialized and autonomous all by itself. Aphrodite was a unique person who specialized in love and desire. Zeus is separate and distinct. The trinity is one person with three masks. Someone with a multiple personality disorder would have more than one autonomous personality, that may not be on the same page as the rest of the characters. The trinity is alway on the same page in terms of the needs of the family.

That's not trinitarianism. Sounds like you're describing modalism, probably.

Trinitarianism isn't a matter of one person presenting himself in three different ways in different circumstances. If there aren't three persons, it's not trinitarianism.

This gets back to my earlier point: trinitarianism is incoherent, so people tend to reinterpret it as either tritheism or modalism in order to resolve the incoherence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have never thought the trinity is polytheism. Though it has the same polytheistic aspect of more than one deity, it is also having a monotheistic quality of one essence. Yet, this was a 4th century development, thus there are many trinities, while one would call the other a heresy.

Nevertheless, it is not very easy to call it polytheistic or monotheistic. Not so easy.

Emphasis mine.

Literally the only thing that makes a belief system polytheistic is having more than one deity.

 

[37818]

But is The Godhead a thing that is made up of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit

Or are The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit things that are made up by The Godhead?

Is The Godhead the entity (and is divided into three) or are the three elements of The Trinity the entity (that come together to form the unified Godhead)?

This is the question I am wrestling with

And maybe it is an invalid question...

The Trinity is after all a mystery

I disagree with the notion that the Trinity is a mystory.
Trinity is an interpretation of the Godhead. That the three Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit (John 4:24) are the one and the same God, Deuteronomy 6:4.
Now the term translated "Godhead" in the KJV is translated from three Greek words, θεῖος, Acts 17:29 and θειότης, Romans 1:20 and θεότης in Colossians 1:20 which we seem to be concerned with, ". . . For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. . . ." From the context Colossians 1:19-21 refers to Christ as Creator in Colossians 1:15-18. Christ being the visible of the invisible God. He the Christ is the how we have access to God, John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5.

 

[37818]

But modalism and partialism are also denial of the Trinity, and that's how many people end up interpreting the Trinity so that it makes sense.

The problem is that the formulation of the Trinity is irrational; it violates the transitive property of equality. People will naturally try to resolve the contradictions in their beliefs, but the problem with Trinitarianism is that if you resolve the contradictions - however you do it - it's not Trinitarianism any more.

Trinity, Trinitarianism are terms which simply mean "three Persons" who are the "one God." "Persons" and "God" as one Person is where people get confused. In the Old Testament, in my understanding, all appearances of God the Father as one Person was done by the Person of the Son. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." -- John 1:18. The Son is the visible agent of God the Father. Two persons are involved in revealing one Person, John 14:6. I hope you can follow that.

 

[Left Coast]

Is Christianity polytheistic?

For me, the short answer is: maybe!

But what do you think?

I get that each element is supposed to be a part of a greater unified whole - the triune Godhead

And yes, there can only be one Godhead

And I get that The Holy Trinity is three persons who are consubstantial with one another

But I cannot help but think that this amounts to polytheism!

Here they are (in no particular order):

View attachment 47572
Here's one member

View attachment 47573
Here's another

View attachment 47574
And here's the third

As I said, I get that these three distinct persons are of one essence

But I am beginning to think that the word "polytheistic" covers Christianity better than "monotheistic"

But I still believe in this:

View attachment 47575

It's just that I think this arrangement amounts to Polytheism

(And I don't deny The Trinity)​

Although Trinitarian theologians have gone to pains to explain how the Trinity is monotheistic, it's difficult not to see them as protesting too much.

Although when it comes to non-Trinitarian Christianity and Judaism, it seems to have evolved into monotheism from henotheism.

 

[firedragon]

Emphasis mine.

Literally the only thing that makes a belief system polytheistic is having more than one deity.

Yep. Thats why I said "more than one deity".

 

[37818]

Although Trinitarian theologians have gone to pains to explain how the Trinity is monotheistic, it's difficult not to see them as protesting too much.

Although when it comes to non-Trinitarian Christianity and Judaism, it seems to have evolved into monotheism from henotheism.

There are non-traditional Trinitarian view points. The term "Trinity" is the name of the interpretation that there are three distinct Persons, God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are the one and the same LORD God, Deuteronomy 6:4. As distinct Persons their roles are different, as God there is no distinction.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yep. Thats why I said "more than one deity".

I guess I got confused when you said that it's "difficult" to say that the Trinity is polytheistic.

It now seems you agree with me that it's not difficult at all.

 

[firedragon]

I guess I got confused when you said that it's "difficult" to say that the Trinity is polytheistic.

It now seems you agree with me that it's not difficult at all.

What I said is very clear. Christianity is unclear. Please read the comment again.

I dont claim its polytheistic. Because they say it is one ousia anyway. But it is also difficult to claim its monotheistic, because it is three with one ousia, not just one and one and only.

Thats what I said. You cannot say both.

I hope you understand.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Trinity, Trinitarianism are terms which simply mean "three Persons" who are the "one God." "Persons" and "God" as one Person is where people get confused. In the Old Testament, in my understanding, all appearances of God the Father as one Person was done by the Person of the Son. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." -- John 1:18. The Son is the visible agent of God the Father. Two persons are involved in revealing one Person, John 14:6. I hope you can follow that.

I think I follow it. Assuming I do, it sounds more like Sabellianism than Trinitarianism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I said is very clear. Christianity is unclear. Please read the comment again.

I thought you were clear the first time. Your reply was what confused me.

I dont claim its polytheistic. Because they say it is one ousia anyway. But it is also difficult to claim its monotheistic, because it is three with one ousia, not just one and one and only.

Right. And what I want to know is why you wouldn't be able to say that a religion that you acknowledge has three deities is polytheistic.

Your point about "ousia" or "essence" strikes me as irrelevant. A religion with multiple gods where all the gods have "one essence" is still a religion with multiple gods.

 

[firedragon]

Right. And what I want to know is why you wouldn't be able to say that a religion that you acknowledge has three deities is polytheistic.

I did not say "Christianity has three deities".

I think if you read my comment again you would understand.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I did not say "Christianity has three deities".

You said "more than one." The "three" bit was an inference on my part.

I think if you read my comment again you would understand.

Why would you think that my disagreement implies a lack of understanding? I understand your position; I just disagree with it.

 

[37818]

I think I follow it. Assuming I do, it sounds more like Sabellianism than Trinitarianism.

In Sabellianism there is only God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God the Father.
There are not three distinct Persons in Sebellianism.
Another version of Modelism is Jesus onlyism. God the Father, the Holy Spirit are only the one called the Son.
There are not three distinct Persons in Jesus onlyism.
If you want to accuse me of Modalism, the Spirit of all three distinct Persons are the same Spirit.
Romans 8:9, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ.
Romans 8:16 the Spirit Itself/Himself.
God is Spirit, John 4:24.
Have at it.

 

[firedragon]

You said "more than one." The "three" bit was an inference on my part.


Why would you think that my disagreement implies a lack of understanding? I understand your position; I just disagree with it.

Okay. Why do you disagree? Let me understand you better.

 

[firedragon]

A religion with multiple gods where all the gods have "one essence" is still a religion with multiple gods.

Thats not true. Its a lack of understanding and the usage of the word "God" in a manner that is not in line with some theologies.