Is Christmas Pagan?

[Bear Wild]

Of course it is 'fun'. If Christmas meant sticking yourself with pins up and down your arms how many would celebrate it __________
Lots of things can be ' fun ' that are illegal, immoral, way too fattening, but that does Not make them as being righteous.
Just being ' fun' is Not a criteria for being right, upright, wholesome or scriptural.
'Fun' does Not necessarily equate to being ' true ' as based on scriptural truth .
- Phillippians 4:8

It is not only fun this holiday for anyone who choses to celebrate it has meaning to those how celebrate it with or without scriptural writings. This season with all of its mythology and symbolism has deep meaning to humans no matter what religion they follow or do not follow.

 

[Bear Wild]

if you polish a turd you still have a turd. even if you put a ribbon on it ,and shiny sprinkles, its still a turd .

That is not a nice thing to say about this holiday season. It has meaning without the need of ribbons or sprinkles. Sorry you see it so ugly.

 

[Secret Chief]

Just as well seeing as it has nothing to do with Christmas, is on a different date, appears on the same historical calendars as Christmas on different dates, and linking it to Christmas is simply regurgitating the errors of 17th C Protestant fundamentalists.

Which is why it is funny when "rationalists" uncritically repeat it

I know I shouldn't trust things like the Brittanica Encyclopedia.

"The influence of the Saturnalia upon the celebrations of Christmas and the New Year has been direct."

- Saturnalia | Celebration, Sacrifice, & Influence on Christmas

 

[cataway]

That is not a nice thing to say about this holiday season. It has meaning without the need of ribbons or sprinkles. Sorry you see it so ugly.

to illustrate what pagan is .
take a glass ,fill it with clean water . it represents true Christianity .
now pick up some thing that represents pagan actions and beliefs , a dog turd . put the turd into that glass of clean water mix it up really good and drink it . thats what you are doing when you mix Christion with pagan . it never works out to something better . in reality it will kill you.

 

[Bear Wild]

to illustrate what pagan is .
take a glass ,fill it with clean water . it represents true Christianity .
now pick up some thing that represents pagan actions and beliefs , a dog turd . put the turd into that glass of clean water mix it up really good and drink it . thats what you are doing when you mix Christion with pagan . it never works out to something better . in reality it will kill you.

So it is like taking a pagan practice like a sacred spring then dumping Christian waste into it making it unfit. The sacred spring is now contaminated with Christian waste. Is that what you mean?

Or are you just saying that pagan beliefs are just feces compared to the purity of Christian beliefs. Cant wait to hear this answer.

 

[Bear Wild]

Just as well seeing as it has nothing to do with Christmas, is on a different date, appears on the same historical calendars as Christmas on different dates, and linking it to Christmas is simply regurgitating the errors of 17th C Protestant fundamentalists.

Which is why it is funny when "rationalists" uncritically repeat it

Now I agree with your argument on the origin of the Celebration of Christmas but over time the Celebration has taken in many customs and traditions that came from many other sources over time. Our modern presentation of Christmas is a long way from the original and has taken on much symbiology and rituals that are not of Christian origin since its beginning. That does not mean that it cannot be still considered Christian to those who believe in Christianity but it still shares symbols, timing and ritual activities celebrated by those who are not Christian.

 

[Riders]

Merry Christmas Happy Yule!1

 

[Augustus]

I know I shouldn't trust things like the Brittanica Encyclopedia.

"The influence of the Saturnalia upon the celebrations of Christmas and the New Year has been direct."

- Saturnalia | Celebration, Sacrifice, & Influence on Christmas

Yes, you shouldn't uncritically trust unsourced internet articles written by non-experts with minimal qualification to write on that topic, especially when they make numerous errors in a few sentences.

Only person credited in that article:

The influence of the Saturnalia upon the celebrations of Christmas and the New Year has been direct. The fact that Christmas was celebrated on the birthday of the unconquered sun (dies solis invicti nati) gave the season a solar background, connected with the kalends of January (January 1, the Roman New Year) when houses were decorated with greenery and lights, and presents were given to children and the poor.

1. Other than the fact that the dies solis invicti nati likely postdates Christmas (plenty of actual scholarly sources earlier in the tread on this), it has nothing to do with Saturnalia. It is a completely different celebration, of a different god, on a different day. Saturnalia is not about the sun, but Saturn. It's also debatable it was a solstice festival, the Greek equivalent Kronia was in June.

2. People may have given gifts but gift giving didn't become common at Christmas until the early modern period and Christmas as a family occasion centred on children getting gifts is more of a 19th C thing. Saturnalia gifts also don't seem to have been focused on 'children and the poor' as article claims.

3. Decorating a house with 'greenery and lights' is hardly surprising for a festival either. People of all cultures have decorated their houses with local seasonal flora, and people needed candles to see in the dark.

Can't say I find these 'arguments' to be particularly compelling tbh (plenty of sources in this thread from actual scholars if you are interested)

After the reformation, fundamentalist Protestants looked at Christmas as flagrant "Popery" which they despised. Non-biblical = 'Popish' = pagan. As such they looked at the drunken Christmas celebrations and linked them to Saturnalia out of rank religious prejudice and the increased interest in classical learning the emerged during the early modern period.

[Almost] all of the modern traditions have clear roots in Christian traditions, not from the ancient world but the early modern one long after the influence of paganism died out. It is possible that some reflect a long lost pagan tradition, but there is no reason to actually assume this without any evidence.

What from modern Christmas do you think actually directly derives from Saturnalia (or any pagan festival) in a long, unbroken line of tradition from classical antiquity and what evidence supports this?

 

[Augustus]

Our modern presentation of Christmas is a long way from the original and has taken on much symbiology and rituals that are not of Christian origin since its beginning. That does not mean that it cannot be still considered Christian to those who believe in Christianity but it still shares symbols, timing and ritual activities celebrated by those who are not Christian.

Our modern Christmas is very different from the original, which is where the problem of linking it to wholesale 'pagan' appropriation comes in. There were no pagans to appropriate from when these modern traditions became popular, and most seem to have clear Christian origins (although not Biblical of course).

Gift giving: Seems mostly to be a thing that emerged in the past 400 years rather than an age old tradition and comes from St Nicholas myth.

Santa: St Nick not Odin. Reindeers 19th C US pop-culture not 'the wild hunt'

Decorating the house with locally available flora: basically every culture in history has done this to some extent.

Holly: it's not exactly hard to see how someone could have drawn a parallel with holly and Jesus' crown of thorns of their own volition.

Mistletoe: kissing under the mistletoe again seems to be far too recent a thing to be 'pagan'.

Christmas trees: only became popular in past 200 of so years. There are earlier mentions of them again with Christian meaning, but they didn't really catch on as a thing.

We can speculate that such things represent older traditions, but there isn't really any evidence.

There are traditions and myths in Christian cultures that did evolve from pre-Christian times as people don't discard all of their beliefs, but most of the ones about modern Christmas seem to be spurious and rely on things being 'stolen' from the pagans, then completely dying out for centuries before being re 'stolen' in the early modern period even though there were no pagans to steal from then.

Or we have to assume they were big traditions throughout the centuries despite there being no record of them.

What do you think are the key pagan traditions that were absorbed in Christmas, and what actual evidence do you believe supports this?

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes, you shouldn't uncritically trust unsourced internet articles written by non-experts with minimal qualification to write on that topic, especially when they make numerous errors in a few sentences.

Only person credited in that article:
View attachment 46380



The influence of the Saturnalia upon the celebrations of Christmas and the New Year has been direct. The fact that Christmas was celebrated on the birthday of the unconquered sun (dies solis invicti nati) gave the season a solar background, connected with the kalends of January (January 1, the Roman New Year) when houses were decorated with greenery and lights, and presents were given to children and the poor.

1. Other than the fact that the dies solis invicti nati likely postdates Christmas (plenty of actual scholarly sources earlier in the tread on this), it has nothing to do with Saturnalia. It is a completely different celebration, of a different god, on a different day. Saturnalia is not about the sun, but Saturn. It's also debatable it was a solstice festival, the Greek equivalent Kronia was in June.

2. People may have given gifts but gift giving didn't become common at Christmas until the early modern period and Christmas as a family occasion centred on children getting gifts is more of a 19th C thing. Saturnalia gifts also don't seem to have been focused on 'children and the poor' as article claims.

3. Decorating a house with 'greenery and lights' is hardly surprising for a festival either. People of all cultures have decorated their houses with local seasonal flora, and people needed candles to see in the dark.

Can't say I find these 'arguments' to be particularly compelling tbh (plenty of sources in this thread from actual scholars if you are interested)

After the reformation, fundamentalist Protestants looked at Christmas as flagrant "Popery" which they despised. Non-biblical = 'Popish' = pagan. As such they looked at the drunken Christmas celebrations and linked them to Saturnalia out of rank religious prejudice and the increased interest in classical learning the emerged during the early modern period.

[Almost] all of the modern traditions have clear roots in Christian traditions, not from the ancient world but the early modern one long after the influence of paganism died out. It is possible that some reflect a long lost pagan tradition, but there is no reason to actually assume this without any evidence.

What from modern Christmas do you think actually directly derives from Saturnalia (or any pagan festival) in a long, unbroken line of tradition from classical antiquity and what evidence supports this?

Yes, you shouldn't uncritically trust unsourced internet articles written by non-experts with minimal qualification to write on that topic, especially when they make numerous errors in a few sentences.

Only person credited in that article:
View attachment 46380



The influence of the Saturnalia upon the celebrations of Christmas and the New Year has been direct. The fact that Christmas was celebrated on the birthday of the unconquered sun (dies solis invicti nati) gave the season a solar background, connected with the kalends of January (January 1, the Roman New Year) when houses were decorated with greenery and lights, and presents were given to children and the poor.

1. Other than the fact that the dies solis invicti nati likely postdates Christmas (plenty of actual scholarly sources earlier in the tread on this), it has nothing to do with Saturnalia. It is a completely different celebration, of a different god, on a different day. Saturnalia is not about the sun, but Saturn. It's also debatable it was a solstice festival, the Greek equivalent Kronia was in June.

2. People may have given gifts but gift giving didn't become common at Christmas until the early modern period and Christmas as a family occasion centred on children getting gifts is more of a 19th C thing. Saturnalia gifts also don't seem to have been focused on 'children and the poor' as article claims.

3. Decorating a house with 'greenery and lights' is hardly surprising for a festival either. People of all cultures have decorated their houses with local seasonal flora, and people needed candles to see in the dark.

Can't say I find these 'arguments' to be particularly compelling tbh (plenty of sources in this thread from actual scholars if you are interested)

After the reformation, fundamentalist Protestants looked at Christmas as flagrant "Popery" which they despised. Non-biblical = 'Popish' = pagan. As such they looked at the drunken Christmas celebrations and linked them to Saturnalia out of rank religious prejudice and the increased interest in classical learning the emerged during the early modern period.

[Almost] all of the modern traditions have clear roots in Christian traditions, not from the ancient world but the early modern one long after the influence of paganism died out. It is possible that some reflect a long lost pagan tradition, but there is no reason to actually assume this without any evidence.

What from modern Christmas do you think actually directly derives from Saturnalia (or any pagan festival) in a long, unbroken line of tradition from classical antiquity and what evidence supports this?

The two festivals are certainly connected in a lot of people's minds. Each search I do and randomly select from seems to say the same....

- Saturnalia
"Saturnalia celebrations are the source of many of the traditions we now associate with Christmas."

 

[Augustus]

The two festivals are certainly connected in a lot of people's minds. Each search I do and randomly select from seems to say the same....

- Saturnalia
"Saturnalia celebrations are the source of many of the traditions we now associate with Christmas."

The internet sez it so it must be true

Lots of people think Trump won the election, doesn't mean they have any evidence to support their claims.

Another unsourced article written by non-experts that simply states it as fact despite making obvious errors is no more persuasive than the last.

The Christian holiday of Christmas, especially, owes many of its traditions to the ancient Roman festival, including the time of year Christmas is celebrated. The Bible does not give a date for Jesus’ birth; in fact, some theologians have concluded he was probably born in spring, as suggested by references to shepherds and sheep in the Nativity story.

But by the fourth century A.D., Western Christian churches settled on celebrating Christmas on December 25, which allowed them to incorporate the holiday with Saturnalia and other popular pagan midwinter traditions.


Christmas and Saturnalia are on different dates, and even appear in the same calendars on different dates i.e. They were both celebrated in the same society a couple of hundred years after 25 Dec was noted as Christmas and even long after Rome became Christian.

Other than that error, it says nothing about any traditions that were incorporated, and obviously offers no evidence.

 

[Secret Chief]

The internet sez it so it must be true

Well I'm right out of books on Saturnalia and Christmas but I can see the comparison with Trump.

"In the modern age, the majority of the world view Christmas as a Christian holiday in origin. However, this is not the case. A lot of popular traditions that are associated with Christmas are not indeed Christian in origin. Many have pre-Christian beginnings in pagan festivals that were celebrated by the pagan populace around the winter solstice before they were later converted to Christianity. Examples of such festivals are Saturnalia and Yule."
- The Pagan Origins of Christmas

 

[Bear Wild]

Santa: St Nick not Odin. Reindeers 19th C US pop-culture not 'the wild hunt'

Not Odin, Odin's wife Frau Holle *(she can be traced back to the wife of Wodan) was the archetype for Santa clause mythology, Deer are symbolic for entering the other world - North pole which would be associated with elves members of the other world. So no not just pop-culture deep symbolic meaning in Northern pagan society.

 

[Bear Wild]

Gift giving: Seems mostly to be a thing that emerged in the past 400 years rather than an age old tradition and comes from St Nicholas myth.

Gift giving dates much farther back than 400 years in cultural celebrations and the way it is portrayed to day is much more in keeping with Frau Holle (as well as different names in different regions) that with St Nicholas who was imported to America through the Dutch who would have been well known to the myths of Northern Europe which continued into the 1800's. Blending of myths and traditions of other cultures and other religions is well known and to say that everything Christian that is a Christian celebration was pure and not influenced by the surrounding culture and society is itself a myth. If it was not then Christianity would be a Jewish sect with primarily Jewish traditions. Instead it changed. And there is clear evidence how the Christian church adopted pagan symbols and goddesses. So while I agree with your arguments that the initial tradition of Christmas was Christian, as time progressed and it moved across Europe it absorbed the symbiology.

 

[Bear Wild]

Mistletoe: kissing under the mistletoe again seems to be far too recent a thing to be 'pagan'.

But the magical aspect if this plant came from both Celtic and Germanic culture. Or did Jesus use mistletoe in his teachings as a way of courting?

 

[janesix]

Is Christmas Pagan itś that time of the year again. Christmas looks different this year with the covid and all.I heard on the news Internet shoppping is way up,more going to the internet to buy then in person.

It used to be.

 

[Bear Wild]

We can speculate that such things represent older traditions, but there isn't really any evidence.

But there is evidence. Christianity did not develop in a vacuum. We know that the Church intentionally changed pagan symbols to become Christian symbols because they were two hard to eliminate from a culture (as new neuroscience is starting to uncover of how humans behave.). The goddess Brigid becomes Saint Brigid. Sacred wells and springs of the Druids become sacred wells and springs of the Christians. Votive practices of the northern pagans shift to Christian practices. Yes the writings of the Christin's write as if everything was their idea but there is sufficient evidence of persistent rituals and archeologic evidence to refute this.

Again a Christian will celebrate Christmas as a Christian with is good. But there is clear shared symbols and rituals that predated the Christian adaptation to the celebration.

 

[Bear Wild]

There are traditions and myths in Christian cultures that did evolve from pre-Christian times as people don't discard all of their beliefs, but most of the ones about modern Christmas seem to be spurious and rely on things being 'stolen' from the pagans, then completely dying out for centuries before being re 'stolen' in the early modern period even though there were no pagans to steal from then.

I am not saying they were stolen at all. You are correct pagans and been suppressed out of existence long before their rituals and symbols were adopted, most transformed to Christian symbols because the persisted despite attempts of the church to eliminate them.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Tennis isn't scriptural, but that's fun to. Celebrating the birth of Jesus is a great way for even non believers to think about the story.

Please explain how playing Tennis is Not scriptural. Isn't some form of exercise beneficial as taught at 1 Timothy 4:8 _________________

 

[Colt]

Please explain how playing Tennis is Not scriptural. Isn't some form of exercise beneficial as taught at 1 Timothy 4:8 _________________

Because tennis isn't in the scripture. Satan started playing tennis, it all went down hill from there!