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Is Conservatism The Same As Classical Liberalism?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The context is Ameristanian politics & philosophy.
And it's in a non-debate section, the conflict inherent in the question notwithstanding.
Let's discuss it....especially among those who identify as conservative, libertarian,
&/or classically liberal (sometimes called Jeffersonian liberal).
(I identify as all but conservative.)

Some background worth reading (too detailed to excerpt meaningfully).
Classical liberalism - Wikipedia
Conservatism in the United States - Wikipedia

I see classical liberalism as closer to libertarianism in social & economic thought.
Note that both are not so rooted in religion. But conservatism is deeply rooted
in Christianity, & seek its influence in government.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Conservatism" and "liberalism" are relative terms, thus better used as words of comparison than as absolutes.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Yes, American conservatives are basically classical liberals whereas American 'liberals' are actually social liberals:


Social liberalism - Wikipedia

A social liberal government is expected to address economic and social issues such as poverty, health care, education and the climate using government intervention whilst also emphasising the rights and autonomy of the individual.[13][14][15]

IMHO, what American political pundits refer to as "liberalism" (the Democrats, the 'left') and "conservatism" (the Republicans, the 'right') in popular discourse, are both 'sects' of enlightenment era liberalism - their shared secular creed - or rather contemporary mutations thereof.

By analogy, they can be compared to denominations within Christianity - like Catholicism and Protestantism.

America was inherently conceived of as being a liberal republic (or, at least, functioned as such prior to Trumpist populism infecting the GOP), so it should be unsurprising that its main political parties are both competing schools of liberalism.

Both Republicans and Democrats, therefore, agree about the need to keep America as a republican system without a monarchy or aristocracy; they have regard for the rule of law and due process under a constitutional system with separation of powers between the three branches (executive, legislative and judicial); both sects believe in the bill of rights and personal liberties such as freedom of expression or religion and a good many other things which separate both of them from autocratic ideologies.

'Conservatives' are the more classically liberal - they are 'conserving' root liberal ideas without much in the way of evolution or cross-pollination with other sociopolitical traditions, such as Marxian socialisms - and so they strictly apply a more laissez-faire free-marketeer ethos in governance, believing that intervention by public authority should be kept to a bare minimum rather than potentially compromising the freedom of citizens with greater bureacracy.

'Liberals' are in point of fact "social liberals" - they combine classical liberal ideals of individual autonomy, freedom and limited government under the rule of law with governmental intervention in both the market and society for the common good, for instance through social insurance programmes, workers rights legislation, healthcare and other areas. In this, American liberals have adapted liberal ideas to respond to valid criticism from Marxists and Socialists in respect of income inequality and social exploitation in liberal societies, imbibing some of their ideas into a refined capitalism without actually challenging the underlying structures of the system (in the way that Socialists do).

American conservatives are liberal purists (impolitely, I'd call them reactionaries), American 'liberals' are liberal progressives.

In continental Europe, "liberal" is understood and applied differently to how it is in America (I would say more accurately): its a term reserved for 'classical' free-market liberalism (akin to American 'conservatism'), while "conservative" is largely a word used for Christian Democratic parties which tend to be economically and fiscally centre-left (sometimes just centrist) but conservative as regards social mores/society and "socialist" is never misapplied to any kind of liberal (as in American parlance, where right-wing people often wrongly refer to social liberals as "socialists") but used only for actual socialists or sometimes very left-wing social democrats.

Britain is influenced by both the continental European and American terminologies, leading to a confusing situation where you have a party of Liberal Democrats who can be both neoliberal free-marketers or centre-leftists, a 'Conservative' Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher who was actually a reactionary classically liberal market fundamentalist rather than a paternalistic Christian democratic conservative (along the lines of Disraeli or One-Nation Conservatism) and a Labour Party that from the Blair years on has ceased being strictly socialist and now has a large centrist, social liberal wing.

In point of fact, Socialists are not liberals of any hue or variety (so the terms should, ideally, not be conflated as they so loosely are in the United States), they hail from a completely separate political tradition/family which only intersects with liberalism to the extent that social liberals have adopted more government intervention and redistribution programmes within a liberal capitalist system, as a response to Marxian critiques of the inequities of liberal societies.
 
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Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The context is Ameristanian politics & philosophy.
And it's in a non-debate section, the conflict inherent in the question notwithstanding.
Let's discuss it....especially among those who identify as conservative, libertarian,
&/or classically liberal (sometimes called Jeffersonian liberal).
(I identify as all but conservative.)

Some background worth reading (too detailed to excerpt meaningfully).
Classical liberalism - Wikipedia
Conservatism in the United States - Wikipedia

I see classical liberalism as closer to libertarianism in social & economic thought.
Note that both are not so rooted in religion. But conservatism is deeply rooted
in Christianity, & seek its influence in government.

No. But here's a thought experiment putting Donald Trump and the Founding Fathers in the same room for a moment which may illustrate just how far we've come:

Founding Fathers: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."

Donald Trump: "You are fake news! Truth is not truth. I have alternative facts. I have polling saying you're a bunch of losers. You're wearing wigs? Who are you? What the hell is wrong with you people?"

Founding Fathers:"... that all men are created equal..."

Donald Trump: "Are you socialist? You are socialist aren't you? And look! you've all got slaves! You're a bunch of socialist dictators, that's what you are! You're going to turn this country in to Venezuela!"

Founding Fathers: "...and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."

Donald Trump: "god, you're so entitled! what a bunch of snowflakes! Get them out of here! Shut them up!"

Founding Fathers:"... that among these rights are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

Donald Trump: "We need to waterboard these terrorists. We have to kill them and kill their families. They have to understand. We will make Britain Great Again! We can't let other people's "rights" get in the way of fighting terrorism. Lock them up! Lock them up! Lock them up!."

Founding Fathers: "that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,deriving their just powers from the governed.."

Donald Trump: "People say if my hands are small, my electoral college victory must have been small. I can assure you. There is no problem there. Believe me!"

Founding Fathers: "That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it..."

Donald Trump: "I am the best President ever. I'm so great. Wouldn't it be great if I were President for life? Wouldn't that be cool?"

Founding Fathers: "and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organising its powers in such form, as shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness..."

Donald Trump: "That's Socialism. That's some nasty socialism you got right there! Shut up you bunch of losers. Russia, if you're listening, I think it would be great if you released General Washington's Emails. He's clearly hiding something. I saw him chop down the cherry tree. It's the truth! believe me! and Those teeth- yeah- those teeth are not real. Unbelievable! That's what socialist dentistry does for yah!"
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
But here's a thought experiment putting Donald Trump

I would personally say that Trump is neither a 'liberal' nor a 'conservative', however one defines those particular terms.

IMHO he's a rabble-rousing, scapegoating populist-authoritarian and sovereignist with nativist tendencies, held at bay only by the institutional protections encoded within the U.S. constitution.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No. But here's a thought experiment putting Donald Trump and the Founding Fathers in the same room for a moment which may illustrate just how far we've come:

Founding Fathers: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."

Donald Trump: "You are fake news! Truth is not truth. I have alternative facts. I have polling saying you're a bunch of losers. You're wearing wigs? Who are you? What the hell is wrong with you people?"

Founding Fathers:"... that all men are created equal..."

Donald Trump: "Are you socialist? You are socialist aren't you? And look! you've all got slaves! You're a bunch of socialist dictators, that's what you are! You're going to turn this country in to Venezuela!"

Founding Fathers: "...and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."

Donald Trump: "god, you're so entitled! what a bunch of snowflakes! Get them out of here! Shut them up!"

Founding Fathers:"... that among these rights are the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

Donald Trump: "We need to waterboard these terrorists. We have to kill them and kill their families. They have to understand. We will make Britain Great Again! We can't let other people's "rights" get in the way of fighting terrorism. Lock them up! Lock them up! Lock them up!."

Founding Fathers: "that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men,deriving their just powers from the governed.."

Donald Trump: "People say if my hands are small, my electoral college victory must have been small. I can assure you. There is no problem there. Believe me!"

Founding Fathers: "That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it..."

Donald Trump: "I am the best President ever. I'm so great. Wouldn't it be great if I were President for life? Wouldn't that be cool?"

Founding Fathers: "and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organising its powers in such form, as shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness..."

Donald Trump: "That's Socialism. That's some nasty socialism you got right there! Shut up you bunch of losers. Russia, if you're listening, I think it would be great if you released General Washington's Emails. He's clearly hiding something. I saw him chop down the cherry tree. It's the truth! believe me! and Those teeth- yeah- those teeth are not real. Unbelievable! That's what socialist dentistry does for yah!"
Mr Trump doesn't fit into any of the groups mentioned in the OP though.
He seems irrelevant to the question.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Let's avoid this thread becoming about you-know-who.
"Conservatism" and "liberalism" are relative terms, thus better used as words of comparison than as absolutes.
In this context, I've offered Wikipedia's descriptions as a basis
for discussion. And this is not about modern Ameristanian
liberalism, which is very different from classical liberalism.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes, American conservatives are basically classical liberals whereas American 'liberals' are actually social liberals:


Social liberalism - Wikipedia

A social liberal government is expected to address economic and social issues such as poverty, health care, education and the climate using government intervention whilst also emphasising the rights and autonomy of the individual.[13][14][15]

IMHO, what American political pundits refer to as "liberalism" (the Democrats, the 'left') and "conservatism" (the Republicans, the 'right') in popular discourse, are both 'sects' of enlightenment era liberalism - their shared secular creed - or rather contemporary mutations thereof.

By analogy, they can be compared to denominations within Christianity - like Catholicism and Protestantism.

America was inherently conceived of as being a liberal republic (or, at least, functioned as such prior to Trumpist populism infecting the GOP), so it should be unsurprising that its main political parties are both competing schools of liberalism.

Both Republicans and Democrats, therefore, agree about the need to keep America as a republican system without a monarchy or aristocracy; they have regard for the rule of law and due process under a constitutional system with separation of powers between the three branches (executive, legislative and judicial); both sects believe in the bill of rights and personal liberties such as freedom of expression or religion and a good many other things which separate both of them from autocratic ideologies.

'Conservatives' are the more classically liberal - they are 'conserving' root liberal ideas without much in the way of evolution or cross-pollination with other sociopolitical traditions, such as Marxian socialisms - and so they strictly apply a more laissez-faire free-marketeer ethos in governance, believing that intervention by public authority should be kept to a bare minimum rather than potentially compromising the freedom of citizens with greater bureacracy.

'Liberals' are in point of fact "social liberals" - they combine classical liberal ideals of individual autonomy, freedom and limited government under the rule of law with governmental intervention in both the market and society for the common good, for instance through social insurance programmes, workers rights legislation, healthcare and other areas. In this, American liberals have adapted liberal ideas to respond to valid criticism from Marxists and Socialists in respect of income inequality and social exploitation in liberal societies, imbibing some of their ideas into a refined capitalism without actually challenging the underlying structures of the system (in the way that Socialists do).

American conservatives are liberal purists (impolitely, I'd call them reactionaries), American 'liberals' are liberal progressives.

In continental Europe, "liberal" is understood and applied differently to how it is in America (I would say more accurately): its a term reserved for 'classical' free-market liberalism (akin to American 'conservatism'), while "conservative" is largely a word used for Christian Democratic parties which tend to be economically and fiscally centre-left (sometimes just centrist) but conservative as regards social mores/society and "socialist" is never misapplied to any kind of liberal (as in American parlance, where right-wing people often wrongly refer to social liberals as "socialists") but used only for actual socialists or sometimes very left-wing social democrats.

Britain is influenced by both the continental European and American terminologies, leading to a confusing situation where you have a party of Liberal Democrats who can be both neoliberal free-marketers or centre-leftists, a 'Conservative' Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher who was actually a reactionary classically liberal market fundamentalist rather than a paternalistic Christian democratic conservative (along the lines of Disraeli or One-Nation Conservatism) and a Labour Party that from the Blair years on has ceased being strictly socialist and now has a large centrist, social liberal wing.

In point of fact, Socialists are not liberals of any hue or variety (so the terms should, ideally, not be conflated as they so loosely are in the United States), they hail from a completely separate political tradition/family which only intersects with liberalism to the extent that social liberals have adopted more government intervention and redistribution programmes within a liberal capitalist system, as a response to Marxian critiques of the inequities of liberal societies.
How do you think classical liberalism differs from libertarianism?
And what is our opinion of the former's distancing from religion
vs conservatism's theocratic tendencies?
 
I see classical liberalism as closer to libertarianism in social & economic thought.
Note that both are not so rooted in religion. But conservatism is deeply rooted
in Christianity, & seek its influence in government.

Classical liberalism was rooted in religion (in an origin sense), at least in the sense of Locke and Adam Smith. More overtly with Locke, while Smith's 'invisible hand' was a form Divine Providence. CL was based on the teleological view of history that defined Whiggish thought. That doesn't mean that religion is necessarily a part of being a classical liberal, but it was a significant factor in it evolving.

Modern US conservatism seems to be almost the opposite of the virtue ethics of Adam Smith, as they seem to be purely opportunistic and very much 'the ends justify the means', with the ends being political power. Along with an affected evangelical Protestantism that's pretty alien to the religious and post-religious views common during the English and Scottish Enlightenments.

Not that I pay too close attention to it, but modern US conservatism doesn't seem to be that classically liberal to me.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Mr Trump doesn't fit into any of the groups mentioned in the OP though.
He seems irrelevant to the question.

Whilst it is deeply regrettable for all of us, Trump is ultimately what a large section of the Conservative movement has become and will probably continue to represent for the foreseeable future. Whilst classical liberalism and conservatism use the same rhetoric of freedom, but they couldn't really be more different.

The differences between the revolutionary character of classical liberalism built on a radical, egalitarian creed driven to experiment with republican and federal government, and the ultra-reactionary nature of conservatism today is very stark. So stark in fact that it is almost a complete inversion of the creed that led to the founding of the American state. Trump and his supporters are doing anything to bail out a failed system; if it was 1776, they definitely aren't on the side of the "radical leftist agitators" putting their names to the declaration of independence. They are on the side of the special interests defending the monarchies and aristocracies of Europe and British colonial rule.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Classical liberalism was rooted in religion (in an origin sense), at least in the sense of Locke and Adam Smith. More overtly with Locke, while Smith's 'invisible hand' was a form Divine Providence. CL was based on the teleological view of history that defined Whiggish thought. That doesn't mean that religion is necessarily a part of being a classical liberal, but it was a significant factor in it evolving.
I see classical liberalism as more rooted in deism than
the evangelical Christianity we see in conservatism.
Modern US conservatism seems to be almost the opposite of the virtue ethics of Adam Smith, as they seem to be purely opportunistic and very much 'the ends justify the means', with the ends being political power. Along with an affected evangelical Protestantism that's pretty alien to the religious and post-religious views common during the English and Scottish Enlightenments.

Not that I pay too close attention to it, but modern US conservatism doesn't seem to be that classically liberal to me.
I agree.
This is why I find it really odd that the RF rules
equate conservatism with classical liberalism.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Whilst it is deeply regrettable for all of us, Trump is ultimately what a large section of the Conservative movement has become and will probably continue to represent for the foreseeable future. Whilst classical liberalism and conservatism use the same rhetoric of freedom, but they couldn't really be more different.

The differences between the revolutionary character of classical liberalism built on a radical, egalitarian creed driven to experiment with republican and federal government, and the ultra-reactionary nature of conservatism today is very stark. So stark in fact that it is almost a complete inversion of the creed that led to the founding of the American state. Trump and his supporters are doing anything to bail out a failed system; if it was 1776, they definitely aren't on the side of the "radical leftist agitators" putting their names to the declaration of independence. They are on the side of the special interests defending the monarchies and aristocracies of Europe and British colonial rule.
Still, Trump doesn't strike me as a conservative. He has
increased taxation, & the power of the federal government.
Some might argue about taxation, but consider....
- Federal revenue increased significantly after the tax change,
which was a mix of reductions & increases.
- Massive deficit spending means increased taxes in the future,
even if someone else signs the bill.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Classical liberalism was rooted in religion (in an origin sense), at least in the sense of Locke and Adam Smith. More overtly with Locke, while Smith's 'invisible hand' was a form Divine Providence. CL was based on the teleological view of history that defined Whiggish thought. That doesn't mean that religion is necessarily a part of being a classical liberal, but it was a significant factor in it evolving.

Modern US conservatism seems to be almost the opposite of the virtue ethics of Adam Smith, as they seem to be purely opportunistic and very much 'the ends justify the means', with the ends being political power. Along with an affected evangelical Protestantism that's pretty alien to the religious and post-religious views common during the English and Scottish Enlightenments.

Not that I pay too close attention to it, but modern US conservatism doesn't seem to be that classically liberal to me.

Classical is the word I use to describe 19th century liberalism in contrast to 20th century social (Keynesian) liberalism. This is how most people in Britain employ it.

I would place Locke and Smith as 'early' liberals or in the founding eras of liberalism.

19th century 'classical' liberalism was influenced by Locke's political philosophy and Smith's economics but differed from them as well, in a number of ideological ways, as you yourself note - one of them being that Smith did not accept inequality as an inevitable and necessary trade-off for a strong economy (as "conservatives" do today, or classical liberals did in the 19th century) i.e. he was more socially conscious:


Contrary to popular and academic belief, Adam Smith did not accept inequality as a necessary trade-off for a more prosperous economy | British Politics and Policy at LSE


In Smith, profits should be low and labor wages high, legislation in favor of the worker is “always just and equitable,” land should be distributed widely and evenly, inheritance laws should partition fortunes, taxation can be high if it is equitable, and the science of the legislator is necessary to thwart rentiers and manipulators.

But classical liberalism, modern American conservatism, libertarianism and social liberalism are all later mutations from the same bedrock as early so-called 'enlightenment' liberalism.

They share a common familial origin which competing ideologies such as socialism and fascism lack.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Whilst it is deeply regrettable for all of us, Trump is ultimately what a large section of the Conservative movement has become and will probably continue to represent for the foreseeable future. Whilst classical liberalism and conservatism use the same rhetoric of freedom, but they couldn't really be more different.

The differences between the revolutionary character of classical liberalism built on a radical, egalitarian creed driven to experiment with republican and federal government, and the ultra-reactionary nature of conservatism today is very stark. So stark in fact that it is almost a complete inversion of the creed that led to the founding of the American state. Trump and his supporters are doing anything to bail out a failed system; if it was 1776, they definitely aren't on the side of the "radical leftist agitators" putting their names to the declaration of independence. They are on the side of the special interests defending the monarchies and aristocracies of Europe and British colonial rule.
Trump is still a distraction because conservatives still exist independently
of his momentary power. They have a long history, & their future after
Trump will differ from Trump.
If this becomes a discussion about him, then the thread's questions disappear.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'll also add that conservatism appears to have evolved
somewhat towards playing policeman to the world. But
I'm not so sure this defines the whole group.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
An illustrative example of the difference to me resides in abortion. Social conservatives are against it. I don't see any role for social conservatives in classical liberalism.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
How do you think classical liberalism differs from libertarianism?
And what is our opinion of the former's distancing from religion
vs conservatism's theocratic tendencies?

Good questions.

'Libertarianism' is an extremely nebulous term that has been applied to a range of anti-statist ideologies. Its earliest attestation can be found in its usage by Anarchists - namely Proudhon's mutualists in the 19th century - who were actually socialists ("left-libertarians"), as well as by anarcho-communists and in the co-operative movement.

In the 20th century, Murray Rothbard - who was a devotee of the 'Austrian' school of economics, which revived many features of classical 19th century liberalism that had been superseded by statist Keynesianism - used it to describe his neo-laissez-faire-type economic and social philosophy, and it has since become widely synonymous with this fiscally right-wing ideology.

Austrian school 'libertarianism' shared the anti-statist predilections of the earlier socialist anarchist libertarians but that's where it ended. Austrian libertarianism was methodologically individualist, profit-oriented and uber-capitalist/free-marketeer.

Its basically a souped up classical liberalism in this later, right-wing form.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Trump is still a distraction because conservatives still exist independently
of his momentary power. They have a long history, & their future after
Trump will differ from Trump.
If this becomes a discussion about him, then the thread's questions disappear.

I certainly hope that we will see the rebirth of an intellectual conservative movement. I think we badly need principled and thoughtful people in public life, whether in office, working to enforce the law or providing commentary on the actions of the state and redressing the balance between government power and individual rights.

Trump's politics do not represent however a single individual but a much broader trend in right-of-centre thought which has become much more accepting of nationalistic themes which favour those who already possess power and wealth. Nor is it isolated to the USA either but has been replicated by a number of regimes around the world mimic his rhetorical and leadership style. Each of which have claimed to "preserve" traditional institutions such as the family from feminism and LGBT rights, defending religious faith from secularism, private property from state intervention, or the nation-state from the forces of free trade, globalisation, multiculturalism and mass immigration.

If Trump isn't the product of the conservative attacks of "big government" social liberalism from Goldwater to Reagan, then I'm really struggling to understand where he came from. There is a global reaction against the liberalism that has been dominant since the late 1970's and early 1980s.

But Trump is not a libertarian or a classical liberal. I'm happy to grant you that. ;)
 
I see classical liberalism as more rooted in deism than
the evangelical Christianity we see in conservatism.

Historically, Deism was an offshoot of liberal Christianity, and, at least in its Providential form, was not much different as it accepted the ethics and discarded the religious and supernatural Jesus stuff like Jefferson did.

Enlightenment Deism and Enlightenment liberal Christianity were practically interchangeable though, and at the very least they were far closer to each other than they were to modern US Protestantism which is a completely different beast altogether. Which is basically a long-winded way of saying I agree :D
 
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