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Is Conservatism The Same As Classical Liberalism?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Historically, Deism was an offshoot of liberal Christianity, and, at least in its Providential form, was not much different as it accepted the ethics and discarded the religious and supernatural Jesus stuff like Jefferson did.
Some shared history notwithstanding, the differences are significant,
eg, Jefferson reading a Koran (not something typical of Christians).
Enlightenment Deism and Enlightenment liberal Christianity were practically interchangeable though, and at the very least they were far closer to each other than they were to modern US Protestantism which is a completely different beast altogether. Which is basically a long-winded way of saying I agree :D
I don't think "Enlightenment liberal Christianity" would characterize conservatism.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Since the context is Ameristan, let's use the Libertarian Party's agendas.
The opening page....
Libertarian Party
The platform....
2018 Platform
There is some info for 2020, but this 2018 link is best for reading.

Yeah, basically just Austrian-school laissez-faire/neo-classical liberalism i.e.


Libertarian Party (United States) - Wikipedia


The party generally promotes a classical liberal platform, in contrast to the Democratic Party's modern liberalism and progressivism and the Republican Party's conservatism. Gary Johnson, the party's presidential nominee in 2012 and 2016, states that the Libertarian Party is more culturally liberal than Democrats, and more fiscally conservative than Republicans.[12] Current fiscal policy positions include lowering taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), decreasing the national debt, allowing people to opt out of Social Security and eliminating the welfare state, in part by utilizing private charities. Current cultural policy positions include ending the prohibition of illegal drugs, advocating criminal justice reform,[13] supporting same-sex marriage, ending capital punishment and supporting gun ownership rights.

Economically, its close to Republican fiscal policies - maybe just a bit more laissez-faire. Socially, its also classically liberal - individual freedom - hence the consistent ethic of supporting same-sex marriage and individual gun ownership.

American conservatism is different only to the extent that it has a large Evangelical voterbase whose religiosity and social values need catered to.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yeah, basically just Austrian-school laissez-faire/neo-classical liberalism i.e.


Libertarian Party (United States) - Wikipedia


The party generally promotes a classical liberal platform, in contrast to the Democratic Party's modern liberalism and progressivism and the Republican Party's conservatism. Gary Johnson, the party's presidential nominee in 2012 and 2016, states that the Libertarian Party is more culturally liberal than Democrats, and more fiscally conservative than Republicans.[12] Current fiscal policy positions include lowering taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service (IRS), decreasing the national debt, allowing people to opt out of Social Security and eliminating the welfare state, in part by utilizing private charities. Current cultural policy positions include ending the prohibition of illegal drugs, advocating criminal justice reform,[13] supporting same-sex marriage, ending capital punishment and supporting gun ownership rights.

Economically, its close to Republican fiscal policies - maybe just a bit more laissez-faire. Socially, its also classically liberal - individual freedom - hence the consistent ethic of supporting same-sex marriage and individual gun ownership.

American conservatism is different only to the extent that it has a large Evangelical voterbase whose religiosity and social values need catered to.
I disagree about Republican fiscal policies, which spend vast sums.
This is different from conservatives.

I should note there that I'm a card carrying Libertarian, but I see
their platform as a direction in which to steer the government,
but not an ideal to actually achieve. This is because the former
is possible, & the latter is utterly impossible.
Alas, the real world imposes limits upon us, & must be considered.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Some shared history notwithstanding, the differences are significant,
eg, Jefferson reading a Koran (not something typical of Christians).

Tell that to John of Segovia:

John of Segovia - Wikipedia

John of Segovia, or in Spanish Juan de Segovia (c. 1395 – 24 May 1458), was a Castilian prelate and theologian. He spent the last years of his life in exile in Savoy, where he commissioned an accurate translation of the Koran into Spanish, which he then translated into Latin.

At the end of the schism in 1449 he resigned the cardinalate, was appointed titular Bishop of Caesarea by Eugene IV, and retired to a monastery. John spent much of his retirement in Aiton advocating peaceful dialogue with the Islamic world and the translation of the Koran into Western languages, Castilian, with the assistance of an Islamic scholar:[1] ʿĪsā ibn Jābir (عيسى بن جابر).


Or Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa:


Nicholas of Cusa - Wikipedia


Nicholas of Cusa (1401 – 11 August 1464), also referred to as Nicholas of Kues and Nicolaus Cusanus (/kjuːˈseɪnəs/), was a German philosopher, theologian, jurist, and astronomer. As papal legate to Germany from 1446, he was appointed cardinal for his merits by Pope Nicholas V in 1448 and Prince–Bishop of Brixen two years later. In 1459 he became vicar general in the Papal States.

Less irenic but not virulent, is his Cribratio Alchorani, Sifting the Koran, a detailed review of the Koran in Latin translation. While the arguments for the superiority of Christianity are still shown in this book, it also credits Judaism and Islam with sharing in the truth at least partially.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
I disagree about Republican fiscal policies, which spend vast sums.

From my perspective as a European Brit, you are all right-wing fiscally and economically liberal - to different degrees but to an extent that few serious politicians on the 'right' are in my continent.

Thus, you will be better able to discern the differences fiscally - but to me there's little difference. Our political axis is much further to your system's "left".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Tell that to John of Segovia:

John of Segovia - Wikipedia

John of Segovia, or in Spanish Juan de Segovia (c. 1395 – 24 May 1458), was a Castilian prelate and theologian. He spent the last years of his life in exile in Savoy, where he commissioned an accurate translation of the Koran into Spanish, which he then translated into Latin.

At the end of the schism in 1449 he resigned the cardinalate, was appointed titular Bishop of Caesarea by Eugene IV, and retired to a monastery. John spent much of his retirement in Aiton advocating peaceful dialogue with the Islamic world and the translation of the Koran into Western languages, Castilian, with the assistance of an Islamic scholar:[1] ʿĪsā ibn Jābir (عيسى بن جابر).


Or Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa:


Nicholas of Cusa - Wikipedia


Nicholas of Cusa (1401 – 11 August 1464), also referred to as Nicholas of Kues and Nicolaus Cusanus (/kjuːˈseɪnəs/), was a German philosopher, theologian, jurist, and astronomer. As papal legate to Germany from 1446, he was appointed cardinal for his merits by Pope Nicholas V in 1448 and Prince–Bishop of Brixen two years later. In 1459 he became vicar general in the Papal States.

Less irenic but not virulent, is his Cribratio Alchorani, Sifting the Koran, a detailed review of the Koran in Latin translation. While the arguments for the superiority of Christianity are still shown in this book, it also credits Judaism and Islam with sharing in the truth at least partially.
This is informative, but my knowledge of modern evangelical Christian
conservatives is that Korans are not popular reading material.
Anyway, I still maintain that the country's founders crafted a government
more secular than many conservatives like.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
From my perspective as a European Brit, you are all right-wing fiscally and economically liberal - to different degrees but to an extent that few serious politicians on the 'right' are in my continent.

Thus, you will be better able to discern the differences fiscally - but to me there's little difference. Our political axis is much further to your system's "left".
In Europeans' parlance, I'd likely be branded a "liberal".
But that is a different context from the one of this thread.
For us, Republicans spend much more money than
conservatives would, were they in power.

But getting back to the OP's questions, conservatives
would spend more than classical liberals, particularly
on military foreign adventurism / policing the world.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Anyway, I still maintain that the country's founders crafted a government
more secular than many conservatives like.

Oh, by far.

The United States is formally secular and non-committal, at the constitutional level, when it comes to religion. Christianity is not and has never been the state creed, although it has always been the majority confession - by far - of the populace.

The only mention of religion in the entirety of the U.S. constitution is the establishment clause: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Indeed, in the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli then President John Adams actually declared:


250px-Article_11.gif


Needless to say, though, that this 'secularism' is not anti-Christian or against Christian teaching.

The early church father Tertullian (c. 155 – c. 240) asserted in Ad Scapulam 2,2, that: "It is not in the nature of religion to coerce religion, which must be adopted freely and not by force" (see also his Apology, chs. 24, 28). Likewise, his near contemporary and fellow church father Lactantius (c. 250 – c. 325) in his Epitome of the Divine Institutes, 49,1, states that "it is religion alone in which freedom has placed its dwelling. For it is a matter which is voluntary above all others, nor can necessity be imposed upon any, so as to worship that which he does not wish to worship". In his Divine Institutes 5,20, he says "There is no occasion for violence and injury, for religion cannot be imposed by force".

We find the same doctrine of non-coercion clearly stated in the Counter-Reformation theologian Francisco Suárez’s Defensio Fidei Catholicae of 1613, commissioned by Pope Paul V and directed against James I of England. It contends that state may punish crimes only “in so far as those crimes are contrary to political ends, public peace, and human justice; but coercion with respect to those deeds which are opposed to religion and to the salvation of the soul is essentially a function of spiritual power” and thus the state has no authority in this area.

Likewise, Pope Nicholas I wrote to the Bulgar Khan in 866 CE:


Internet History Sourcebooks


Violence should by no means be inflicted upon them [pagans] to make them believe. For everything which is not voluntary, cannot be good; for it is written: Willingly shall I sacrifice to you,[Ps. 53:8] and again: Make all the commands of my mouth your will,[Ps. 118:108] and again, And by my own will I shall confess to Him.[Ps. 27:7]

Indeed, God commands that willing service be performed only by the willing...Listen to the apostle Paul who, when he wrote to the Corinthians, says: Why indeed is it my business to judge concerning those who are outside? Do you not judge concerning those who are inside? [I Cor. 5:12-13]

It is as if he said: Concerning those who are outside our religion, I shall judge nothing


Now, undeniably, there was another strain within medieval and early modern Christianity that sadly persecuted and even executed people for 'heresy' and 'apostasy' but the contemporary Catholic Church has admitted that this was a tragic departure from these principles that should never have occurred, for instance at the Second Vatican Council in 1965.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
In Europeans' parlance, I'd likely be branded a "liberal".
But that is a different context from the one of this thread.
For us, Republicans spend much more money than
conservatives would, were they in power.

But getting back to the OP's questions, conservatives
would spend more than classical liberals, particularly
on military foreign adventurism / policing the world.

Yes, I imagine you'd fit well into a number of the right-wing "liberal" parties on the continent - such as the Danish Liberal Party:


Venstre (Denmark) - Wikipedia


Venstre[note 1] (Danish pronunciation: [ˈvenstʁɐ], literally "left"), full name Venstre, Danmarks Liberale Parti (English: Left, Denmark's Liberal Party), is a conservative-liberal,[2][3][4] agrarian[10] political party in Denmark. Founded as part of a peasants' movement against the landed aristocracy, today it espouses an economically liberal, pro–free market ideology.[6]

Venstre is the major party of the centre-right in Denmark, and the second-largest party in the country. The party has produced many Prime Ministers.

Some describe it as classical liberal, since its leader from 1998 to 2009, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, is known for his authorship of the book From Social State to Minimal State. His book advocated an extensive reform of the Danish welfare state along classical liberal lines, including lower taxes and less government interference in corporate and individual matters.

While they are economically liberal and pro-free market (as well as socially liberal, as in supportive of gay rights and abortion), you'd likely find them more left-wing still - as in, they still support universal single-payer healthcare (which every EU country has) and they wouldn't be supportive of gun ownership (which outside Switzerland has no widespread currency in Europe).

But that's accounting for European cultural differences (and we are culturally different).

But getting back to the OP's questions, conservatives
would spend more than classical liberals, particularly
on military foreign adventurism / policing the world.


I don't know about that. The founding fathers of the U.S., all 'enlightenment' era or early liberals, were pretty imperialistic.

Thomas Jefferson, in the 1790s, awaited the fall of the Spanish Empire “ until our population can be sufficiently advanced to gain it from them piece by piece ”. Historian Sidney Lens notes that “ the urge for expansion – at the expense of other peoples – goes back to the beginnings of the United States itself ”. Yale historian Paul Kennedy put it, “ From the time the first settlers arrived in Virginia from England and started moving westward, this was an imperial nation, a conquering nation .”


Modern-Day American Imperialism: Middle East and Beyond


The United States is the one country that exists, as far as I know, and ever has, that was founded as an empire explicitly. According to the founding fathers, when the country was founded it was an “infant empire.” That’s George Washington.

The model for the founding fathers that they borrowed from Britain was the Roman Empire. They wanted to emulate it. Even before the Revolution, these notions were very much alive. Benjamin Franklin, 25 years before the Revolution, complained that the British were imposing limits on the expansion of the colonies. He admonished the British (I’m quoting him), “A prince that acquires new territories and removes the natives to give his people room will be remembered as the father of the nation.” And George Washington agreed. He wanted to be the father of the nation. His view was that “the gradual extension of our settlement will as certainly cause the savage as the wolf to retire, both being beasts of prey, though they differ in shape.”

Thomas Jefferson, the most forthcoming of the founding fathers, said, “We shall drive them [the savages] — We shall drive them with the beasts of the forests into the stony mountains,” and the country will ultimately be “free of blot or mixture” — meaning red or black. Furthermore, Jefferson went on, “Our new nation will be the nest from which America, north and south, is to be peopled,” displacing not only the red men here but the Latin-speaking population to the south and anyone else who happened to be around.

There was a deterrent to those glorious aims, mainly Britain. In particular, it blocked the invasion of Canada. The first attempted invasion of Canada was before the Revolution, and there were several others later, but it was always blocked by British force, which is why Canada exists. The United States did not actually recognize Canada’s existence until after the First World War.

Another goal that was blocked by British force was Cuba. Again, the founding fathers regarded the taking over of Cuba as essential to the survival of the infant empire.

Adams, incidentally, later in his life regretted this. He condemned the Mexican War as an executive war and a terrible precedent. And he also expressed remorse over the fate of what he called “that hapless race of Native Americans which we are exterminating with such merciless and perfidious cruelty.” They knew what they were doing.


And in the UK, the high watermark of laissez-faire/classical economic liberalism in the 19th century came under the premiership of Lord Palmerston, who was a fanatic liberal imperialist:


Lord Palmerston | Biography & Facts


Lord Palmerston (born October 20, 1784, Broadlands, Hampshire, England—died October 18, 1865, Brocket Hall, Hertfordshire), English Whig-Liberal statesman whose long career, including many years as British foreign secretary (1830–34, 1835–41, and 1846–51) and prime minister (1855–58 and 1859–65), made him a symbol of British nationalism.

He persuaded himself that “the selfish interests and political influence of England were best promoted by the extension of liberty and civilisation,” and even, against the evidence, that constitutional governments would be pro-British. Rebuked for “missionary diplomacy” not intended to lead to action but to inflame international relations, he retorted that ineffective protest was better than tacit acquiescence in wrong and that opinions were mightier than armies. He was charged with “disturbing the peace of Europe by giving encouragement to every revolutionary and anarchical set of men.”


So, to be fair, liberalism - classic or modern conservative-liberal - has long been a pretty expansionist ideology, which has sought to spread its political values.

That's because it regards its system as the only true and acceptable one - a society of limited government, free markets and individual liberties is regarded as every human's birth right.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes, I imagine you'd fit well into a number of the right-wing "liberal" parties on the continent - such as the Danish Liberal Party:
Woohoo!
I'm a Danish...liberal.
Venstre (Denmark) - Wikipedia


Venstre[note 1] (Danish pronunciation: [ˈvenstʁɐ], literally "left"), full name Venstre, Danmarks Liberale Parti (English: Left, Denmark's Liberal Party), is a conservative-liberal,[2][3][4] agrarian[10] political party in Denmark. Founded as part of a peasants' movement against the landed aristocracy, today it espouses an economically liberal, pro–free market ideology.[6]

Venstre is the major party of the centre-right in Denmark, and the second-largest party in the country. The party has produced many Prime Ministers.

Some describe it as classical liberal, since its leader from 1998 to 2009, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, is known for his authorship of the book From Social State to Minimal State. His book advocated an extensive reform of the Danish welfare state along classical liberal lines, including lower taxes and less government interference in corporate and individual matters.

While they are economically liberal and pro-free market (as well as socially liberal, as in supportive of gay rights and abortion), you'd likely find them more left-wing still - as in, they still support universal single-payer healthcare (which every EU country has) and they wouldn't be supportive of gun ownership (which outside Switzerland has no widespread currency in Europe).
Actually, I favor single payer health care.
This is because it's inevitable, & by favoring it I'm able to
advocate for a libertarian flavor, ie, allowing private options.
But that's accounting for European cultural differences (and we are culturally different).




I don't know about that. The founding fathers of the U.S., all 'enlightenment' era or early liberals, were pretty imperialistic.

Thomas Jefferson, in the 1790s, awaited the fall of the Spanish Empire “ until our population can be sufficiently advanced to gain it from them piece by piece ”. Historian Sidney Lens notes that “ the urge for expansion – at the expense of other peoples – goes back to the beginnings of the United States itself ”. Yale historian Paul Kennedy put it, “ From the time the first settlers arrived in Virginia from England and started moving westward, this was an imperial nation, a conquering nation .”


Modern-Day American Imperialism: Middle East and Beyond


The United States is the one country that exists, as far as I know, and ever has, that was founded as an empire explicitly. According to the founding fathers, when the country was founded it was an “infant empire.” That’s George Washington.

The model for the founding fathers that they borrowed from Britain was the Roman Empire. They wanted to emulate it. Even before the Revolution, these notions were very much alive. Benjamin Franklin, 25 years before the Revolution, complained that the British were imposing limits on the expansion of the colonies. He admonished the British (I’m quoting him), “A prince that acquires new territories and removes the natives to give his people room will be remembered as the father of the nation.” And George Washington agreed. He wanted to be the father of the nation. His view was that “the gradual extension of our settlement will as certainly cause the savage as the wolf to retire, both being beasts of prey, though they differ in shape.”

Thomas Jefferson, the most forthcoming of the founding fathers, said, “We shall drive them [the savages] — We shall drive them with the beasts of the forests into the stony mountains,” and the country will ultimately be “free of blot or mixture” — meaning red or black. Furthermore, Jefferson went on, “Our new nation will be the nest from which America, north and south, is to be peopled,” displacing not only the red men here but the Latin-speaking population to the south and anyone else who happened to be around.

There was a deterrent to those glorious aims, mainly Britain. In particular, it blocked the invasion of Canada. The first attempted invasion of Canada was before the Revolution, and there were several others later, but it was always blocked by British force, which is why Canada exists. The United States did not actually recognize Canada’s existence until after the First World War.

Another goal that was blocked by British force was Cuba. Again, the founding fathers regarded the taking over of Cuba as essential to the survival of the infant empire.

Adams, incidentally, later in his life regretted this. He condemned the Mexican War as an executive war and a terrible precedent. And he also expressed remorse over the fate of what he called “that hapless race of Native Americans which we are exterminating with such merciless and perfidious cruelty.” They knew what they were doing.


And in the UK, the high watermark of laissez-faire/classical economic liberalism in the 19th century came under the premiership of Lord Palmerston, who was a fanatic liberal imperialist:


Lord Palmerston | Biography & Facts


Lord Palmerston (born October 20, 1784, Broadlands, Hampshire, England—died October 18, 1865, Brocket Hall, Hertfordshire), English Whig-Liberal statesman whose long career, including many years as British foreign secretary (1830–34, 1835–41, and 1846–51) and prime minister (1855–58 and 1859–65), made him a symbol of British nationalism.

He persuaded himself that “the selfish interests and political influence of England were best promoted by the extension of liberty and civilisation,” and even, against the evidence, that constitutional governments would be pro-British. Rebuked for “missionary diplomacy” not intended to lead to action but to inflame international relations, he retorted that ineffective protest was better than tacit acquiescence in wrong and that opinions were mightier than armies. He was charged with “disturbing the peace of Europe by giving encouragement to every revolutionary and anarchical set of men.”


So, to be fair, liberalism - classic or modern conservative-liberal - has long been a pretty expansionist ideology, which has sought to spread its political values.

That's because it regards its system as the only true and acceptable one - a society of limited government, free markets and individual liberties is regarded as every human's birth right.
A way to look upon the "conquering nation" thingie is that in the day,
Ameristanian settlers looked down on aboriginals as less than human.
Change that belief, & classical liberalism would have to view them as
worthy of the same rights as the colonials.
As with all philosophies, adjustments for changing times must be made.
Example....
Freedom of the press was fundamentally about free speech
regardless of the medium, not about printing presses.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
The context is Ameristanian politics & philosophy.
And it's in a non-debate section, the conflict inherent in the question notwithstanding.
Let's discuss it....especially among those who identify as conservative, libertarian,
&/or classically liberal (sometimes called Jeffersonian liberal).
(I identify as all but conservative.)

Some background worth reading (too detailed to excerpt meaningfully).
Classical liberalism - Wikipedia
Conservatism in the United States - Wikipedia

I see classical liberalism as closer to libertarianism in social & economic thought.
Note that both are not so rooted in religion. But conservatism is deeply rooted
in Christianity, & seek its influence in government.
To a fairly large extent I agree with your opening thesis: that classical liberalism is very much like what we today call conservatism.

The problem is that conservatism in the US, as exemplified by the Republican party today, is neither classical liberalism nor real conservatism. It's a whole new beast.

Now that would not have been true some time ago. Lincoln, a Republican, I would place squarely in the classical liberal camp. Lincoln was certainly not a "Liberal" in the way I would define that word today, but as I read in his own words, and in his acceptance of a "natural rights" philosophy (which is how he argued emancipation) -- well, I would much sooner have tried to argue for gay rights under Lincoln than I would under most members of today's Republican Party.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
To a fairly large extent I agree with your opening thesis: that classical liberalism is very much like what we today call conservatism.
Actually, I find it quite different.
I see classical liberalism resembling libertarianism (using the Ameristanian
party as the standard) more. Less religiosity, lower taxation, less government.
The problem is that conservatism in the US, as exemplified by the Republican party today, is neither classical liberalism nor real conservatism. It's a whole new beast.
Republicans aren't really the issue here.
They're not equivalent to conservatives, although
the latter can be found in the former.
Now that would not have been true some time ago. Lincoln, a Republican, I would place squarely in the classical liberal camp. Lincoln was certainly not a "Liberal" in the way I would define that word today, but as I read in his own words, and in his acceptance of a "natural rights" philosophy (which is how he argued emancipation) -- well, I would much sooner have tried to argue for gay rights under Lincoln than I would under most members of today's Republican Party.
With Lincoln, it's hard for me to say. I'm not familiar enuf with his history.
But suspending habeas corpus strikes me as anti-classical liberal. But
then, it was during wartime. So I don't know.

As for "natural rights", I see that as a perceived basis for some
people's political philosophy, but a problem is that one can
believe nearly anything as "natural". So I'm dealing with the
common shared agendas of people in each group...not the
origins of pursuing these agendas.

Is abortion natural? Is imposing a ban on abortion natural?
The questions & answers strike me as being "not even wrong".
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Actually, I favor single payer health care.
This is because it's inevitable, & by favoring it I'm able to
advocate for a libertarian flavor, ie, allowing private options.

Interesting.

You're the first American libertarian I've come across who supports universal public healthcare.

It's certainly not a classical liberal policy, as I'm sure you would agree.

I mean, the first social welfare programmes were introduced by the conservative (in European terms) German chancellor Bismarck in 1883:


State Socialism (Germany) - Wikipedia


Otto von Bismarck established the first welfare state in a modern industrial society, with social-welfare legislation, in 1880's Imperial Germany.[29] Bismarck extended the privileges of the Junker social class to ordinary Germans.[29] His 17 November 1881 Imperial Message to the Reichstag used the term "practical Christianity" to describe his program.[30]

German laws from this era also insured workers against industrial risks inherent in the workplace.[31]


Liberals of the time opposed such state interventionist welfare reforms until the advent of social liberalism in Britain:

New liberalism | British history

New liberalism, in British history, a body of distinctive legislation on social welfare enacted between 1906 and the outbreak of World War I. Herbert Louis Samuel, Winston Churchill, and David Lloyd George were three of the government leaders most directly associated with its implementation.


These are the antecedents of the same branch of social liberalism that became dominant in the Democratic Party under FDR in the US onwards.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Interesting.

You're the first American libertarian I've come across who supports universal public healthcare.

It's certainly not a classical liberal policy, as I'm sure you would agree.
My goal is not to be pure towards my tribe.
It's to steer government as much as possible towards our values.
This means strategic compromise.

Ever play board games?
It's usually a goal to avoid losing pieces.
But sometimes sacrificing pieces wins the game.
I mean, the first social welfare programmes were introduced by the conservative (in European terms) German chancellor Bismarck in 1883:


State Socialism (Germany) - Wikipedia


Otto von Bismarck established the first welfare state in a modern industrial society, with social-welfare legislation, in 1880's Imperial Germany.[29] Bismarck extended the privileges of the Junker social class to ordinary Germans.[29] His 17 November 1881 Imperial Message to the Reichstag used the term "practical Christianity" to describe his program.[30]

German laws from this era also insured workers against industrial risks inherent in the workplace.[31]


Liberals of the time opposed such state interventionist welfare reforms until the advent of social liberalism in Britain:

New liberalism | British history

New liberalism, in British history, a body of distinctive legislation on social welfare enacted between 1906 and the outbreak of World War I. Herbert Louis Samuel, Winston Churchill, and David Lloyd George were three of the government leaders most directly associated with its implementation.


These are the antecedents of the same branch of social liberalism that became dominant in the Democratic Party under FDR in the US onwards.
My agenda is to see social welfare be the goal,
not takeover of the means of production. It'll
achieve pretty much what the socialists want,
unlike the actual results of socialism.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Interesting.

You're the first American libertarian I've come across who supports universal public healthcare.

It's certainly not a classical liberal policy, as I'm sure you would agree.

I mean, the first social welfare programmes were introduced by the conservative (in European terms) German chancellor Bismarck in 1883:
I suspect it wouldn't be all that hard to make a case for a robust and healthy labour force, that might even be paid for in part from the profits of commerce. In the same way, the morning earners that exist who have the means to purchase your products, the larger your marketplace.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The context is Ameristanian politics & philosophy.
And it's in a non-debate section, the conflict inherent in the question notwithstanding.
Let's discuss it....especially among those who identify as conservative, libertarian,
&/or classically liberal (sometimes called Jeffersonian liberal).
(I identify as all but conservative.)

Some background worth reading (too detailed to excerpt meaningfully).
Classical liberalism - Wikipedia
Conservatism in the United States - Wikipedia

I see classical liberalism as closer to libertarianism in social & economic thought.
Note that both are not so rooted in religion. But conservatism is deeply rooted
in Christianity, & seek its influence in government.

If we're talking about the classical liberalism of our Founding Fathers, then
I guess it's hard to put into context, since America's Founders were, by definition, revolutionaries implementing a revolutionary form of government. There were no "conservatives," per se, except for those who still wanted to remain part of the British Empire.

Some of the early political disputes appeared to be more regional - not so much a matter of "liberal" vs. "conservative." The North favored industrialism and free (but mistreated and exploited) labor, while the South favored agrarianism and slavery. Both favored expansionism, so there were no real "peaceniks" to speak of.

The early Abolitionists might have been liberals of their time, although they were also devoutly religious, along with some genuine fanatics like John Brown.

I think the modern versions of "liberal" and "conservative" were mainly formulated and developed after the Civil War. I think that conservatives might look back on this era as a kind of "golden age" of Americana. That's when patriotism reached a peak. The opening of the West was considered a milestone, and that was also near and dear to Americans' hearts in later years, as Westerns became the most popular genre in film and TV. It was good for capitalism, too, as America's industrial machine was still young but had a lot of potential.

But liberals were also out there pointing out the many wrongs taking place. Despite the Civil War and the end of slavery, there were still abuses taking place in the South, as well as in the West with the Native Americans. Child labor and other horrific abuses continued in the factories. Railroad workers and miners were also getting more restless. The cities were rapidly growing, but turning into utter sewers with unhealthy, disease-ridden conditions that liberals and progressives decried.

There were also those on the liberal side who resisted and rebelled against some of the religious-based standards of morality that had been imposed upon them previously. People started believing in things like "free love," but the conservatives would have none of that.

Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive. He believed in environmentalism and anti-monopolism, much to the chagrin of his fellow Republicans who were more conservative. Woodrow Wilson also supported more progressive policies. Roosevelt was quite a war hawk in his later years as WW1 started up, and Wilson himself declared war in 1917. But there were quite a number of Americans who still wanted peace, and America's subsequent isolationism was largely credited to conservatives.

Conservatives took back power in the 1920s, which led us into the Depression, for which conservatives were blamed. FDR was more liberal and supported liberal policies, but he also supported war and a more internationalist policy which was initially opposed by the more conservative factions who tended towards isolationism. But then they inexplicably made a sudden switch and became even more zealous warmongers during the Cold War, while some liberals were starting to question it (although there was some division among Democrats at that point).

The conservatives also fought against civil rights, while liberals largely supported it.

They still seem to squabble over the idea of "free love," although it appears that liberals were the overwhelming victors in the sexual revolution. Then there was also the counter-culture and the "chic" factor of illegal drugs, which may have been underground, but still very much a part of the culture. So capitalism, on a certain base level, had a certain kind of appeal to the liberal free thinker who rebelled against the fuddy-duddy attitudes of religious conservatives.

This is where the libertarians come in, at least in the modern era. They strike me as those who were rebels in their youth, part of the counter-culture - sex, drugs, rock and roll. They like the idea of free love and so forth - and they want the liberty to do whatever they want, provided it doesn't violate other people's rights. In that sense, liberals aren't much different, except they believe in government social programs to help the poor and disadvantaged.

Conservatives also seem to carry a certain libertarian thread to their message, as they also claim to favor the same things in terms of civil liberties, property rights, free market, etc. Although they also have a lot of the religious conservative attitudes, as well as a good number of warmongers and ultra-patriots.

I think libertarians have borrowed from both conservatives and liberals, although it seems that both sides would see them as taking the worst parts of both and making it into their own thing.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If we're talking about the classical liberalism of our Founding Fathers, then
I guess it's hard to put into context, since America's Founders were, by definition, revolutionaries implementing a revolutionary form of government. There were no "conservatives," per se, except for those who still wanted to remain part of the British Empire.
I'm addressing modern day classical liberals, libertarians,
& conservatives in our time, not back then.
Some of the early political disputes appeared to be more regional - not so much a matter of "liberal" vs. "conservative." The North favored industrialism and free (but mistreated and exploited) labor, while the South favored agrarianism and slavery. Both favored expansionism, so there were no real "peaceniks" to speak of.

The early Abolitionists might have been liberals of their time, although they were also devoutly religious, along with some genuine fanatics like John Brown.

I think the modern versions of "liberal" and "conservative" were mainly formulated and developed after the Civil War. I think that conservatives might look back on this era as a kind of "golden age" of Americana. That's when patriotism reached a peak. The opening of the West was considered a milestone, and that was also near and dear to Americans' hearts in later years, as Westerns became the most popular genre in film and TV. It was good for capitalism, too, as America's industrial machine was still young but had a lot of potential.

But liberals were also out there pointing out the many wrongs taking place. Despite the Civil War and the end of slavery, there were still abuses taking place in the South, as well as in the West with the Native Americans. Child labor and other horrific abuses continued in the factories. Railroad workers and miners were also getting more restless. The cities were rapidly growing, but turning into utter sewers with unhealthy, disease-ridden conditions that liberals and progressives decried.

There were also those on the liberal side who resisted and rebelled against some of the religious-based standards of morality that had been imposed upon them previously. People started believing in things like "free love," but the conservatives would have none of that.

Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive. He believed in environmentalism and anti-monopolism, much to the chagrin of his fellow Republicans who were more conservative. Woodrow Wilson also supported more progressive policies. Roosevelt was quite a war hawk in his later years as WW1 started up, and Wilson himself declared war in 1917. But there were quite a number of Americans who still wanted peace, and America's subsequent isolationism was largely credited to conservatives.

Conservatives took back power in the 1920s, which led us into the Depression, for which conservatives were blamed. FDR was more liberal and supported liberal policies, but he also supported war and a more internationalist policy which was initially opposed by the more conservative factions who tended towards isolationism. But then they inexplicably made a sudden switch and became even more zealous warmongers during the Cold War, while some liberals were starting to question it (although there was some division among Democrats at that point).

The conservatives also fought against civil rights, while liberals largely supported it.

They still seem to squabble over the idea of "free love," although it appears that liberals were the overwhelming victors in the sexual revolution. Then there was also the counter-culture and the "chic" factor of illegal drugs, which may have been underground, but still very much a part of the culture. So capitalism, on a certain base level, had a certain kind of appeal to the liberal free thinker who rebelled against the fuddy-duddy attitudes of religious conservatives.

This is where the libertarians come in, at least in the modern era. They strike me as those who were rebels in their youth, part of the counter-culture - sex, drugs, rock and roll. They like the idea of free love and so forth - and they want the liberty to do whatever they want, provided it doesn't violate other people's rights. In that sense, liberals aren't much different, except they believe in government social programs to help the poor and disadvantaged.

Conservatives also seem to carry a certain libertarian thread to their message, as they also claim to favor the same things in terms of civil liberties, property rights, free market, etc. Although they also have a lot of the religious conservative attitudes, as well as a good number of warmongers and ultra-patriots.

I think libertarians have borrowed from both conservatives and liberals, although it seems that both sides would see them as taking the worst parts of both and making it into their own thing.
I must say that that's a lot to read for
tired eyes having trouble focusing.
But it seems to not address the OP.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
No. There's traditionalist conservatism and paleoconservatism which are quite different from classical liberalism, and opposed to it.
 
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