Is Darwinism proven/accepted by official Science?

[leroy]

leroy : And mutations can be ether random or not random (random with respect to the potential benefits) why I it so hard to understand for you?

There is no evidence for that.

yes there is evidence for that and I can provide a source.
The origin of mutants - PubMed

Abstract
Nucleic acids are replicated with conspicuous fidelity. Infrequently, however, they undergo changes in sequence, and this process of change (mutation) generates the variability that allows evolution. As the result of studies of bacterial variation, it is now widely believed that mutations arise continuously and without any consideration for their utility. In this paper, we briefly review the source of this idea and then describe some experiments suggesting that cells may have mechanisms for choosing which mutations will occur.

I am not inventing silly excuses for not providing a source like you are, I am not making silly responses like “I know it’s true because 3+7=10”…… but that is ok, I understand that your favorite youtubers told you that atheists don’t have to support their claims and you descided to follow their advises.

 

[leroy]

Leroy

There is a problem with you describing trasposons as non-random mutations, and may also have mispoke.

Transposon for protein engineering.

Transposons (or transposable elements) are mobile genetic elements that translocate from one genomic location to another in a random fashion. ... A bacteriophage Mu transposon is one of the most useful transposable elements in nature due to its high integration efficiency and non-specific target site selection.

Introduction
Transposons (or transposable elements) are mobile genetic elements that translocate from one genomic location to another in a random fashion. Depending on the intermediates formed during transposition, transposable elements are classified into 2 main groups: 1) Class I or retrotransposon, and 2) Class II or DNA transposon.1 Retrotransposons, which are mostly found in eukaryotic organisms, employ the “copy” mechanism: retrotransposons are reverse-transcribed to DNA before insertion of a new copy to another genome location.2 On the contrary, DNA transposons can be found in both prokaryotes and eukaryotes, and employ the “cut and paste” mechanism: DNA transposons use DNA directly as a transposition intermediate without forming RNA intermediates.3

DNA transposons can serve as in vitro molecular tools for various protein engineering applications due to their ability to integrate into various DNA sequences and thus generate extensive mutant libraries.4 In vitro transposition reactions have primarily been mediated by (1) bacterial transposons, such as Tn7,5 Tn3,6 Tn5,7 Tn552,8 Tn10 9 and IS911,10 (2) bacteriophage transposons, such as Mu,11 and (3) yeast transposons, such as Ty1.12 Transposons in the most simplistic form, called mini-transposons, have also been developed to facilitate in vitro transposition reactions.13,14 The minimal elements required for in vitro transposition include the terminal inverted repeat nucleotides within transposons (i.e. transposase recognition site), transposase (i.e., enzyme), the target host DNA, and a reaction buffer.

A bacteriophage Mu transposon is one of the most useful transposable elements in nature due to its high integration efficiency and non-specific target site selection.14 Accordingly, the in vitro Mu transposition reaction has been studied extensively.15 The Mu transposon has 22 bp-long terminal inverted repeats, which is a recognition sequence for MuA transposase.15 Random integration of Mu transposon into target DNA occurs through the following 3 steps; 1) the MuA transposase binds to the symmetrical sequence of the Mu transposon and forms a transposome assembly15; 2) the transposome assembly assists in Mu transposon's self-cleavage at cleavage site (i.e. TA/CA)16; 3) the Mu transposon is integrated into the target DNA with precise 5 bp duplication.15

Sep 22, 2016.

Like many mutations the occurance of transposons are random.

All the sources that you have provided are very interesting, but can you quote a portion or any source that is in disagreement with anything that I HAVE SAID?

 

[leroy]

Now you are misinterpreting the information. Lets look at the facts. There are only two amino acid substitutions between humans and chimpanzees yet these two substitutions which would have originally been from a random mutation in a single DNA nucleotide for each amino acid substitution had profound effects on this genes phenotypic expression. Equally true is that any substitution that results in a defect of this gene has profound effect on communication. Natural selection should select for conservation of this gene which it has.

The fact that there is divergence in a group with convergence to another group of animals is also consistent with natural selection thus if Tarsiers (a primate) become closer to squirrels to do selective pressures, this response is entirely consistent with natural selection and evolution.

The main point is that you cant show that those substitutions where caused by random mutations.

As a side note I simply mentioned the fact that the tree has discordances that are easy to explain via non random mutations but hard to explain via random mutations.

An analogy would be “to say that 2 students had the exact same spelling mistakes in the exact same words is unlikely” but if the mistakes where intended (maybe they both noticed that it would be better for the purpose of the text to change an S for Z) it wouldn’t be very unlikely.

 

[shunyadragon]

All the sources that you have provided are very interesting, but can you quote a portion or any source that is in disagreement with anything that I HAVE SAID?

Not so . . . You have responded to nothing in the sources I cited again . . .

Yes I refered directly to the source the scientific definition for 'epigenics' and it does not fit yours. The whole reference is a primer on eugenics. Please read.

Again crom the NIH . . .

More specifically epigenetics in contemporary science:

Epigenetics

Epigenetics is an emerging field of science that studies heritable changes caused by the activation and deactivation of genes without any change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism. The word epigenetics is of Greek origin and literally means over and above (epi) the genome.

Epigenetics is the study of changes in gene function that are heritable and that are not attributed to alterations of the DNA sequence. The term epi means above. It's a Greek prefix. It's also defined as on top of the basic DNA sequence. In general terms you can think of them like accent marks on words where the DNA is the language and the modifications are the accent marks. Epigenetic marks change the way genes are expressed. The promise of epigenetics is that it tells us about the cell, it's a way to define the cell that's different than just looking at gene expression levels. We could look at any kind of cell and it will have specialized epigenetic patterns. There are two types of modifications: DNA methylation and histone modification. DNA methylation goes awry in cancers so if we knew the normal pattern of methylation and then looked at the pattern of methylation in a tumor we could see what changes were taking place and we could see which genes were being affected.

Laura Elnitski, Ph.D.

Example of epigenetics is the gene, or sequece, of teeth in birds as in their ancestors the dinosaurs.. Birds including Chikens have the gene for teeth turned off epigenetically.

No responce . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

All the sources that you have provided are very interesting, but can you quote a portion or any source that is in disagreement with anything that I HAVE SAID?

Transposon mutations are random mutations.
Again crom the NIH . . .

More specifically epigenetics in contemporary science:

Epigenetics

Epigenetics is an emerging field of science that studies heritable changes caused by the activation and deactivation of genes without any change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism. The word epigenetics is of Greek origin and literally means over and above (epi) the genome.

Epigenetics is the study of changes in gene function that are heritable and that are not attributed to alterations of the DNA sequence. The term epi means above. It's a Greek prefix. It's also defined as on top of the basic DNA sequence. In general terms you can think of them like accent marks on words where the DNA is the language and the modifications are the accent marks. Epigenetic marks change the way genes are expressed. The promise of epigenetics is that it tells us about the cell, it's a way to define the cell that's different than just looking at gene expression levels. We could look at any kind of cell and it will have specialized epigenetic patterns. There are two types of modifications: DNA methylation and histone modification. DNA methylation goes awry in cancers so if we knew the normal pattern of methylation and then looked at the pattern of methylation in a tumor we could see what changes were taking place and we could see which genes were being affected.

Laura Elnitski, Ph.D.

Example of epigenetics is the gene, or sequece, of teeth in birds as in their ancestors the dinosaurs.. Birds including Chikens have the gene for teeth turned off epigenetically.

Do you agree with the above?

No responce . . .

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

yes there is evidence for that and I can provide a source.
The origin of mutants - PubMed

The paper doesn't seem to have made a big impact.

A quick google found this one also: The Origin of Mutants Under Selection: How Natural Selection Mimics Mutagenesis (Adaptive Mutation)
where they seem to point out several problems with it.

It's over my head though, I'm not a biologist. I'm just going with the consensus. Not with the odd paper.

I am not inventing silly excuses for not providing a source like you are, I am not making silly responses like “I know it’s true because 3+7=10”…… but that is ok, I understand that your favorite youtubers told you that atheists don’t have to support their claims and you descided to follow their advises.

Please, you don't know anything about me.

 

[leroy]

I already did you must have missed it.Post #248. No it is not important.

All scientist understand their disagreements, and further research is the goal to resolve the disagreements.

Contorversy is Dr, Stella Immanual proposing aliens interbred with humans and demons cause disease.

Another controversy is the universe is less than 10.000 years old and the Genesis world flood cover the earth.

Ok, with controversy I simply meant disagreement in my previous posts…….. given this do you have any point of disagreement with me?

All I am saying is that there is disagreement among scientists on how organisms evolve, and specifically on what mechanisms provided most of the raw material

 

[leroy]

Transposon mutations are random mutations.
Again crom the NIH . . .

More specifically epigenetics in contemporary science:

Epigenetics

Epigenetics is an emerging field of science that studies heritable changes caused by the activation and deactivation of genes without any change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism. The word epigenetics is of Greek origin and literally means over and above (epi) the genome.

Epigenetics is the study of changes in gene function that are heritable and that are not attributed to alterations of the DNA sequence. The term epi means above. It's a Greek prefix. It's also defined as on top of the basic DNA sequence. In general terms you can think of them like accent marks on words where the DNA is the language and the modifications are the accent marks. Epigenetic marks change the way genes are expressed. The promise of epigenetics is that it tells us about the cell, it's a way to define the cell that's different than just looking at gene expression levels. We could look at any kind of cell and it will have specialized epigenetic patterns. There are two types of modifications: DNA methylation and histone modification. DNA methylation goes awry in cancers so if we knew the normal pattern of methylation and then looked at the pattern of methylation in a tumor we could see what changes were taking place and we could see which genes were being affected.

Laura Elnitski, Ph.D.

Example of epigenetics is the gene, or sequece, of teeth in birds as in their ancestors the dinosaurs.. Birds including Chikens have the gene for teeth turned off epigenetically.

Do you agree with the above?

No responce . . .

No I don’t disagree……have I made a comment that suggests that I would disagree? (please quote it)

 

[leroy]

The paper doesn't seem to have made a big impact.

A quick google found this one also: The Origin of Mutants Under Selection: How Natural Selection Mimics Mutagenesis (Adaptive Mutation)
where they seem to point out several problems with it.

It's over my head though, I'm not a biologist. I'm just going with the consensus. Not with the odd paper.



Please, you don't know anything about me.

Yes there is disagreement among scientists that is my point…..this recent paper (Amplification of lac Cannot Account for Adaptive Mutation to Lac+ in Escherichia coli) supports the old 1988 paper and I am sure we can find dozens of paper flowing in both directions, the point is that there is no consensus on how organism evolve and there is no consensus on the role that random and nonrandom mutations played.

It's over my head though, I'm not a biologist. I'm just going with the consensus. Not with the odd paper.

Well the consensus is that organisms evolve through a process or natural selection and genetic drift, that we share a common ancestor with other species and that we don’t know which type of mutation (random or non random mutations) played the most important role in explaining the diversity of life……. Do you accept the consensus?

If you disagree then what is the consensus according to you?

 

[shunyadragon]

All the sources that you have provided are very interesting, but can you quote a portion or any source that is in disagreement with anything that I HAVE SAID?

Do you agree with this?

Also below describing specifically 'random point mutations.

Generation and analysis of random point mutations in an antibody CDR2 sequence: many mutated antibodies lose their ability to bind antigen. | Journal of Experimental Medicine | Rockefeller University Press

Generation and analysis of random point mutations in an antibody CDR2 sequence: many mutated antibodies lose their ability to bind antigen.
https://doi.org/10.1084/jem.176.3.8

By Ching Chen,* Victoria A. Roberts, and Marvin B. Rittenberg* From the "Department of Microbiology and Immunology, Oregon Health Sciences University, Portland, Oregon 97201; and the *Department of Molecular Biology, The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, California 92037

Summary

We have investigated the impact of mutations on the binding functions of the phosphocholine (PC)-speciiic T15 antibody in the absence of antigen selection pressure. The H chain complementarity determining region 2 (CDR2) sequence of T15 antibody was saturated with point mutations by in vitro random mutagenesis. From the mutant library, 289 clones were screened by direct DNA sequencing. The point mutations generated by this method were randomly distributed throughout the CDR2 region and included all kinds of substitutions. 46 unique mutant antibodies, containing one to four point mutations each, were expressed in SP2/0 myeloma cells. Functional analysis on these antibodies has provided insights into several aspects of somatic mutation. (a) The majority (26/46) of mutant antibodies either lost (20/46) or had reduced (6/46) ability to bind PC-protein conjugates or R36a, a PC-expressing strain of Streptococcus pneumoniae. In contrast, none of the mutant antibodies displayed increased binding for these PC antigens. Taken together with calculations of destructive mutations elsewhere in the V region, the data suggest that somatic mutation may cause extensive wastage among B cells during clonal expansion after antigen stimulation. (b) The frequency of binding-loss mutants increased sharply when a second mutation was introduced into the CDR2 sequence; it appears that, in some cases, two or more mutations are needed to destroy binding. (c) The mutant antibodies were tested for their reactivity to 11 non-PC antigens as well as to three PC analogues. None of the mutants gained new reactivity or changed their ability to discriminate structural analogues, supporting the notion that the major role of somatic mutation is to increase or decrease aff~ty rather than to create new specificities. (d) Mutations in at least five different positions in CDR2 were deleterious, suggesting that these residues may be essential for antigen binding. Three of these positions are novel in that they had not been identified to be important for binding PC by previous crystallographic analysis. (e) Introduction of mutations into two highly conserved residues in CDR2 did not alter the overall conformation of the V region as judged by antiidiotypic analysis, and, in some cases, did not affect the antigen binding function. The results thus indicate that even nonconservative substitutions of invariant residues need not be deleterious, suggesting that their conservation may be due to reasons other than maintaining antibody structure or specificity.

No I don’t disagree……have I made a comment that suggests that I would disagree? (please quote it)

You described transposon mutations as non-random and they are random. You described epigenetics as referring to non-random mutations and it does not.

 

[leroy]

You described transposon mutations as non-random and they are random. You described epigenetics as referring to non-random mutations and it does not.

Can you quote the specific portion of any of your sources where it says that these mechanisms are random?

 

[leroy]

Do you agree with this?

Also below describing specifically 'random point mutations.

.

I don’t reject the fact that random point mutations occur. Nor that they play “some role” in providing the raw material for natural selection to operate…..all I am saying is that some mutations are not random and there is disagreement on which of the 2 type of mutations played the most important role.

Is there anything in the papers that you quoted, that disagree with what I just said?

 

[shunyadragon]

Can you quote the specific portion of any of your sources where it says that these mechanisms are random?

Already cited sources. Please read

 

[leroy]

Already cited sources. Please read

No, you did what you always do, quote irrelevant sources.

Can you please quote the portions of the article where it says that those mechanisms (epigenetics, transposons etc. are random?)……..or you can simply admit that you were wrong

 

[shunyadragon]

No, you did what you always do, quote irrelevant sources.

Can you please quote the portions of the article where it says that those mechanisms (epigenetics, transposons etc. are random?)……..or you can simply admit that you were wrong

I assume you are literate and can read the articles and efinitions I already cited.

Concerning transposona:

Transposon for protein engineering.

Transposons (or transposable elements) are mobile genetic elements that translocate from one genomic location to another in a random fashion. ... A bacteriophage Mu transposon is one of the most useful transposable elements in nature due to its high integration efficiency and non-specific target site selection.

Introduction
Transposons (or transposable elements) are mobile genetic elements that translocate from one genomic location to another in a random fashion. Depending on the intermediates formed during transposition, transposable elements are classified into 2 main groups: 1) Class I or retrotransposon, and 2) Class II or DNA transposon.1 Retrotransposons, which are mostly found in eukaryotic organisms, employ the “copy” mechanism: retrotransposons are reverse-transcribed to DNA before insertion of a new copy to another genome location.2 On the contrary, DNA transposons can be found in both prokaryotes and eukaryotes, and employ the “cut and paste” mechanism: DNA transposons use DNA directly as a transposition intermediate without forming RNA intermediates.3

DNA transposons can serve as in vitro molecular tools for various protein engineering applications due to their ability to integrate into various DNA sequences and thus generate extensive mutant libraries.4 In vitro transposition reactions have primarily been mediated by (1) bacterial transposons, such as Tn7,5 Tn3,6 Tn5,7 Tn552,8 Tn10 9 and IS911,10 (2) bacteriophage transposons, such as Mu,11 and (3) yeast transposons, such as Ty1.12 Transposons in the most simplistic form, called mini-transposons, have also been developed to facilitate in vitro transposition reactions.13,14 The minimal elements required for in vitro transposition include the terminal inverted repeat nucleotides within transposons (i.e. transposase recognition site), transposase (i.e., enzyme), the target host DNA, and a reaction buffer.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don’t reject the fact that random point mutations occur. Nor that they play “some role” in providing the raw material for natural selection to operate…..all I am saying is that some mutations are not random and there is disagreement on which of the 2 type of mutations played the most important role.

Is there anything in the papers that you quoted, that disagree with what I just said?

There is no evidence that the functional nature of mutations as to whether mutations are random nor non-random. The examples I cited refer to many very functional mutations that are random. There is not a distinction as to what is most important concerning random or non-random mutations.
it is the diversity of the mutations within a population that determines the potential of ability to respond to enevironmental preasure to hange through natural selection.

You will have to clarify what you are referring to 2 type mutations?

 

[leroy]

You will have to clarify what you are referring to 2 type mutations?

2 types of mutations = random and non random that is what i meant

 

[leroy]

I assume you are literate and can read the articles and efinitions I already cited.

Concerning transposona:

Transposon for protein engineering.

Transposons (or transposable elements) are mobile genetic elements that translocate from one genomic location to another in a random fashion. ... A bacteriophage Mu transposon is one of the most useful transposable elements in nature due to its high integration efficiency and non-specific target site selection.

Introduction
Transposons (or transposable elements) are mobile genetic elements that translocate from one genomic location to another in a random fashion. Depending on the intermediates formed during transposition, transposable elements are classified into 2 main groups: 1) Class I or retrotransposon, and 2) Class II or DNA transposon.1 Retrotransposons, which are mostly found in eukaryotic organisms, employ the “copy” mechanism: retrotransposons are reverse-transcribed to DNA before insertion of a new copy to another genome location.2 On the contrary, DNA transposons can be found in both prokaryotes and eukaryotes, and employ the “cut and paste” mechanism: DNA transposons use DNA directly as a transposition intermediate without forming RNA intermediates.3

DNA transposons can serve as in vitro molecular tools for various protein engineering applications due to their ability to integrate into various DNA sequences and thus generate extensive mutant libraries.4 In vitro transposition reactions have primarily been mediated by (1) bacterial transposons, such as Tn7,5 Tn3,6 Tn5,7 Tn552,8 Tn10 9 and IS911,10 (2) bacteriophage transposons, such as Mu,11 and (3) yeast transposons, such as Ty1.12 Transposons in the most simplistic form, called mini-transposons, have also been developed to facilitate in vitro transposition reactions.13,14 The minimal elements required for in vitro transposition include the terminal inverted repeat nucleotides within transposons (i.e. transposase recognition site), transposase (i.e., enzyme), the target host DNA, and a reaction buffer.

You are just playing with the word “random” I told you what I mean by “random “ (Mutations are random) and in the sence I am using the word trasposons are not random.

Thus, it is perhaps not surprising that TEs are rarely, if ever, randomly distributed in the genome. TEs exhibit various levels of preference for insertion within certain features or compartments of the genome (Fig. 2). These are often guided by opposite selective forces, a balancing act of facilitating future propagation while mitigating deleterious effects on host cell function.Ten things you should know about transposable elements | Genome Biology | Full Text

Obviously I am not implying that your source is wrong, it is just that they are using the word random in a different context

 

[shunyadragon]

2 types of mutations = random and non random that is what i meant

Again as per references there is no distinctin on the importance of mutations whether they are random nor non-random. There are other classification of mutatins that are more relevant as to their potential function natural selection and adaptation of populations to environmental change. .

 

[shunyadragon]

You are just playing with the word “random” I told you what I mean by “random “ (Mutations are random) and in the sence I am using the word trasposons are not random.



Obviously I am not implying that your source is wrong, it is just that they are using the word random in a different context

You will have to be more specific as what you are referring to as random mutations, because by the definition which is used for my references and Genetics and all science is that the timing of the cause and effect (ie gemetic mutations) cannot be predetermined. The type of mutations is determined by the organic chemistry of DNA/RNA, and possibly environmental factors like exposure to radiation.

Another common example is radioactive decay. The timing of any one radoactive decay cannot be pre-determined therefore random, but the over all pattern of radioactive decay can be objectively determined.