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Is Darwinism proven/accepted by official Science?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
My knowledge in population genetics is irrelevant, given that all I am doing is sharing the articles written by other authors….. The relevant question is whether if the authors of the papers have enough knowledge or not.

If anything you should argue that the authors of the papers are wrong, and explain why,

Your lack of knowledge is indeed relevant, because of your dijoint citation of selective cut and past references to justify your agenda does not reflect a knowledge of genetics such as 'Population Genetics,' which you are heavy into with an agenda and no knowledge.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You justifed slectively Shapiro's 'natural genetic engineering' to Support Inteeligent Design. In reality Shapiro's position is minority position in science. 'Cherry Picking.'
I didn’t cite Shapiro to justify intelligent design, I challenge you to find any quote where I did…

I quoted Shapiro and many others to justify the existence of non random mutations. And to justify that these mutations could have played a major role.


Cite any source that says that shiporos work is rejected by the majority of scientists.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Your lack of knowledge is indeed relevant, because of your dijoint citation of selective cut and past references to justify your agenda does not reflect a knowledge of genetics such as 'Population Genetics,' which you are heavy into with an agenda and no knowledge.
Support your accusations, provide an example of any source that I misinterpret, and please provide the “correct interpretation” and justify why you think your interpretation is the correct one.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Cite any source that says that shiporos work is rejected by the majority of scientists.

What you have to document is how much support he has and how he is cited by other scientists. If he is not cited or described as supporting Shpioro's work. Proposing reject is simply dealing with the silence.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Support your accusations, provide an example of any source that I misinterpret, and please provide the “correct interpretation” and justify why you think your interpretation is the correct one.

The correct interpretation reflects all the collective views of Genetics and Paleontology, and not selectively cite a 'few' references that support your ID agenda.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
What you have to document is how much support he has and how he is cited by other scientists. If he is not cited or described as supporting Shpioro's work. Proposing reject is simply dealing with the silence.
Since you are the one who is rejecting shapiros work without any justification, you are the one who is supposed to present evidence for the claims that only a minority of scientists support his conclusions

Then repeat the same process with all the other authors that I quote that also reported the existence of non random mutations.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The correct interpretation reflects all the collective views of Genetics and Paleontology, and not selectively cite a 'few' references that support your ID agenda.
Ok , then provide a source that shows that the “collective view” is that I am wrong and you are correct.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Since you are the one who is rejecting shapiros work without any justification, you are the one who is supposed to present evidence for the claims that only a minority of scientists support his conclusions

Then repeat the same process with all the other authors that I quote that also reported the existence of non random mutations.

First, I have not rejected Shapiro's work. I just consider it a minority view I disagree with. Not necessarily his research, but some of the anthropomorphic language he uses. I prefer a more consensus of an evoling body of knowledge.

You selectively citing different authors does not justify your agenda.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ok , then provide a source that shows that the “collective view” is that I am wrong and you are correct.

I already gave you two general references that covered the 'collective view,' and therefore you are wrong, and the evolving body of knowledge of those sciences involved with evolution as a whole..
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
I already gave you two general references that covered the 'collective view,' and therefore you are wrong, and the evolving body of knowledge of those sciences involved with evolution as a whole..
Ok then quote any paragraph from your sources that is in disagreement with anything that I have said.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ok then quote any paragraph from your sources that is in disagreement with anything that I have said.

If you selectively cite from a few sources only those few sources will agree with you. The others for the most do not mention .natural genetic evolution' as natural process in evolution. The sources I cited that describe the natural mechanisms of evolution simply do not include 'natural genetic engineering' as factor in the natural processes of evolution. In fact they avoid anthropomorphic terminology from their literature.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ok then quote any paragraph from your sources that is in disagreement with anything that I have said.

The objection is not for the research of Shapiro, but again, again and again . . . the objection is the subjective anthropomorhic language of 'some' Sha[iro's conclusions. The two comprehensive sources I provided give the details of the natural processes of evolution. No mention of 'natural genetic engineering.' Scientist who disagree on the philosophical view, like Shapiro's do not necessarily voice their objection but some do as follows:

The Trouble with Natural Genetic Engineering

The Trouble with Natural Genetic Engineering
James A. Shapiro: Evolution: A View from the 21st Century. FT Press Science, Upper Saddle River, NJ, 2011, 272 pp., $27.99 hbk, $27.99 ebook, ISBN 978-0-13-278093-3


  1. JS uses the term “mechanistic” (and related terms) throughout the book without distinguishing between an epistemological and ontological meaning (for an analysis of this issue see Nicholson 2012). In this review I shall follow JS’s uncritical usage.

  2. 2.
    JS uses the two terms interchangeably. One could argue that this is historically inadequate, given that “neo-Darwinism” is a much older expression referring to the position advocated by Weismann and others (Sapp 2003, p. 68). Nonetheless, I will again follow JS’s usage.

  3. 3.
    JS uses the term “paradigm” rather informally. Once more, I will follow this informal usage, though I realize that it is fraught with problems (see, e.g., Callebaut 2010).

  4. 4.
    One further point is that Shapiro talks about active cells employing their NGE capacities in order to “engineer” adaptive change, implying that cells can be considered agents and causes of change. I will focus on this crucial aspect of his argument below.

  5. 5.
    A saltational process leading to the sudden emergence of new adaptations (or even species) was historically thought to provide an alternative to the Darwinian process based on the gradual emergence of adaptive complexity by selection (Gould 2002, esp. 143–144; Sapp 2003, p. 71).

  6. 6.
    Note that teleology is understood here in an intrinsic (i.e., Aristotelian) sense. Only an extrinsic (i.e., Platonic) sense of teleology implies an external designer (see Lennox 1992). Hence, there is no link whatsoever between this form of teleology and intelligent design or creationism.

  7. 7.
    However, sometimes JS seems to argue that even proteins possess sensing capabilities (pp. 13–14). If this is the case, then cells are not so special after all. Even subcellular components might be considered as the fundamental units of life, as the genuine biological atoms. (See Nicholson 2010 on the issue of biological atomism.)
.more to follow. . .
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
This source goes into more detail concerning the objections to the anthropomorphic nature of Shapiro;s conclusions, You will notice, like me, those who disagree with Shapiro DO NOT totally reject Shaipro;s work, but disagree with him on a similar basis as my conclusions. Note the author agrees with me and provides a positive not of agreement concerning Shairo's work.

It is not a war of controversial obejections among most scientists. There is often agreement and disagreement in dialogue over research and conclusions that will be wroked out through future research and discoveries.

Evolution: A View from the 21st Century

Evolution: A View from the 21st Century
Reviewed by Adam S. Wilkins
Evolution: A View from the 21st Century by James A. Shapiro.

"My final disagreement with Jim's general argument concerns a truly fundamental point, however: the dismissal of natural selection as a shaping force in evolution. Thus, it is stated, at the very start of the book (top of p. 1): “Innovation, not selection, is the critical issue in evolutionary change. Without variation and novelty, selection has nothing to act upon.” Although all evolutionists would agree wholeheartedly with the second sentence, most would reject the first. The matter of selection is then virtually ignored until the final section of the book. There we read, as one of nine bullet points that summarize the core message: “The role of selection is to eliminate evolutionary novelties that prove to be non-functional and interfere with adaptive needs. Selection operates as a purifying but not creative force [emphasis added].”

I cannot imagine many evolutionary biologists subscribing to that position. The objections to it come from both genetic arguments and paleontological data. Take the genetic considerations first. In microbes, the number of steps between a genetic change and its phenotypic consequences is usually small, often being simply the function of an altered encoded protein. One might say that, in general, within prokaryotes, the “genotype–phenotype distance” is short. The consequence is a fairly direct and predictable biological consequence, whose selective consequences (favorable or unfavorable) are often easy to predict. In contrast, in complex multicellular organisms, the genotype–phenotype distance is large, the effects of most genetic changes being transmitted through complex genetic networks and cellular changes. These, which can be diagrammed as a linear sequence (though often embedded within larger branching networks), constitute a large sequence of steps, one that eventuates in morphological change. Furthermore, the genetic change often has pleiotropic consequences. The net result of all these complexities is that the biological consequences of a genetic (or stable epigenetic) change are often both indirect and mixed. In such situations, there will be trade-offs between biological fitness gains and losses for each resultant change. Natural selection must comprise an important part of the process that either filters out or amplifies the effect of most such changes.

The arguments from paleontological evidence for the importance of natural selection largely concern the observed long-term trends of morphological change, which are visible in many lineages. It is hard to imagine what else but natural selection could be responsible for such trends, unless one invokes supernatural or mystical forces such as the long popular but ultimately discredited force of “orthogenesis.” For a detailed consideration of these cases and the role of natural selection in shaping morphologies of organisms over long time spans, there is no better general treatment than the classic book of Simpson (1971).

Finally, with respect to this issue of selection, one might add that, in terms of Jim's particular thesis, it is hard to understand how cells could have the very capacities for natural genetic engineering attributed to them without those capacities having been evolved, in some manner and over long evolutionary spans, by natural selection. The evolution of such capabilities, favoring the process of evolvability (the capacity to give rise to new properties), is a fascinating subject, though mentioned explicitly only once in the book, and deserves more attention than it has traditionally received. Again, the only alternative for the origination of these capabilities, if one discards natural selection as the generative agent, is some supranatural force, a position that I am certain is not being advocated here.

On the other hand, perhaps, the rejection of the creative role of natural selection in transforming populations is not as complete as the earlier statements suggest. The next to last bullet point, in the summation of conclusions (p. 144), states: “Successful evolutionary inventions are subject to amplification, reuse, and adaptation to new functions in response to successive ecological changes.” To me, that reads like a classic statement for the role of directional selection in promoting evolutionary change via the transformation of the genetic structure of a population. Certainly, the spread of antibiotic resistance, discussed at length in the book, would appear to be an archetypal instance of natural selection—albeit one based on a highly nonclassical form of genetic variation—as, indeed, it is so regarded by most biologists.

Yet, the book's contention that natural selection's importance for evolution has been hugely overstated represents a point of view that has a growing set of adherents. (A few months ago, I was amazed to hear it expressed, in the strongest terms, from another highly eminent microbiologist.) My impression is that evolutionary biology is increasingly separating into two camps, divided over just this question. On the one hand are the population geneticists and evolutionary biologists who continue to believe that selection has a “creative” and crucial role in evolution, and on the other, there is a growing body of scientists (largely those who have come into evolution from molecular biology, developmental biology or developmental genetics, and microbiology) who reject it. In contrast to Victorian scientists who regarded Darwinian natural selection as “incapable” of creating high degrees of biological complexity, the modern sceptics tend to regard it as of “trivial” importance: the “right” variant for the right place and time arises and, presto, the population changes! The two contemporary groups, divided over this point, are not so much talking past each another as ignoring one another. This cannot be a constructive situation though whether it has the makings of a full-fledged Kuhnian paradigm crisis is too soon to tell.

Let me end on a positive note. Jim Shapiro has made a well-documented case against the sufficiency of random mutations (arising irrespective of potential need) as the source material for genetic variation and has discussed a wide variety of mechanisms by means of which, in some degree, genetic change is evoked in direct response to environmental challenge. There is a plethora of information that he marshals, both within the printed book and in the online material and these specific findings and the general phenomenon they illustrate deserve far more attention from evolutionary biologists than they have so far received. A particular challenge now is to find out how much evolutionarily significant genetic change is evoked in response to specific environmental changes and what kinds of change they comprise."

There are many more after this . . .

Yes some of the natural processes in Shapiros It is abundantly clear that you are latching on to Shapiro's anthropomorphic language to justify Intelligent design, but not many scientists consider it a natural process of significance in evolution.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
If you selectively cite from a few sources only those few sources will agree with you. The others for the most do not mention .natural genetic evolution' as natural process in evolution. The sources I cited that describe the natural mechanisms of evolution simply do not include 'natural genetic engineering' as factor in the natural processes of evolution. In fact they avoid anthropomorphic terminology from their literature.
The might not use the words Natural Genetic Engineering but the do describe similar mechanisms, specifically non random mutations
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The might not use the words Natural Genetic Engineering but the do describe similar mechanisms, specifically non random mutations

My references are very clear it is not only the words 'natural genetic engineering.' Nonetheless 'natural genetic engineering' has an anthropomorphic,meaning. The existence of non-random mutations and non-random processes with natural causes does not support your case for ID as some interprete Shapiro's use of anthropomorphic interpretation.

The problem is also your over emphasis of one scientist, Shapiro, a minority position and neglecting the rest of the research and discoveries of the sciences supporting evoluton. This is not how science works.
 
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Rizdek

Member
The Darwin has wrote not one book, but the second too. In the second book, he has written that humans came from monkeys.

There is an essential truth to that in that most folks who believe in evolution believe that humans descended from a primate-like species that may well have looked a lot like today's monkeys. What's the problem with that? We have many genetic similarities with Chimpanzees which makes me think it is likely we are closely related to them genetically.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
One point we do disagree on is that the 'needs' of organisms cause mutation.


WELL I find it ironic that even your own source disagrees with you




Let me end on a positive note. Jim Shapiro has made a well-documented case against the sufficiency of random mutations (arising irrespective of potential need) as the source material for genetic variation and has discussed a wide variety of mechanisms by means of which, in some degree, genetic change is evoked in direct response to environmental challenge. There is a plethora of information that he marshals, both within the printed book and in the online material and these specific findings and the general phenomenon they illustrate deserve far more attention from evolutionary biologists than they have so far received. A particular challenge now is to find out how much evolutionarily significant genetic change is evoked in response to specific environmental changes and what kinds of change they comprise."

.

So your source is clearly on my side, “random mutations” are not sufficient. I also find it funny that the author is using the exact same definition of “random” that I used and that you rejected.


---------

You are also building a dishonest strawman……. My position is not that James Shapiro is aboslutly and uncontrovertibly correct. My position is that there are many scientists (perhaps the majority) that would argue that random mutations and natural selection are not enough to explain the complexity and diversity of life and that many scientist have proposed alternatives (or complementary) explanations …. Being James Shapiro just one of many such scientists.

Or to put it this way, there is disagreement on the mechanisms that caused evolution; specifically there is disagreement on the role of non random mutations …. Both the author of your source and I agree with this; ….. you seem to be the only scientists in the world who claims with certainty that random mutations provided all the raw material.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
My references are very clear it is not only the words 'natural genetic engineering.' Nonetheless 'natural genetic engineering' has an anthropomorphic,meaning. The existence of non-random mutations and non-random processes with natural causes does not support your case for ID as some interprete Shapiro's use of anthropomorphic interpretation.

Whether if nonrandom mutations support ID or not is irrelevant for this thread and irrelevant for science….. let theologians and philosophers worry about the theological implications of the stuff that biologists and geneticist discover…….

The fact is that there is strong evidence for nonrandom mutations and these non random mutations could have played a major role in explaining the diversity and complexity of life (as some scientists have concluded in their peer reviewed work)…………agree? (do you agree with the stuff in orange letters)


The problem is also your over emphasis of one scientist, Shapiro, a minority position and neglecting the rest of the research and discoveries of the sciences supporting evoluton. This is not how science works.

I mentioned Shapiro (and many other authors) in response to your request ….. you (and others from this forum) have asked me for specific examples of peer reviewed articles that propose alternative explanations to darwinism (random variation + natural selection)


If you what to argue that organisms evolved mainly by random mutations (providing the raw material) and natural selection, and that this position is widely accepted beyond reasonable doubt by the majority of scientists then please provide a source….. because even your own sources that you have provided disagree with this view.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The objection is not for the research of Shapiro, but again, again and again . . . the objection is the subjective anthropomorhic language of 'some' Sha[iro's conclusions. The two comprehensive sources I provided give the details of the natural processes of evolution. No mention of 'natural genetic engineering.' Scientist who disagree on the philosophical view, like Shapiro's do not necessarily voice their objection but some do as follows:

The Trouble with Natural Genetic Engineering

The Trouble with Natural Genetic Engineering
James A. Shapiro: Evolution: A View from the 21st Century. FT Press Science, Upper Saddle River, NJ, 2011, 272 pp., $27.99 hbk, $27.99 ebook, ISBN 978-0-13-278093-3


  1. JS uses the term “mechanistic” (and related terms) throughout the book without distinguishing between an epistemological and ontological meaning (for an analysis of this issue see Nicholson 2012). In this review I shall follow JS’s uncritical usage.

  2. 2.
    JS uses the two terms interchangeably. One could argue that this is historically inadequate, given that “neo-Darwinism” is a much older expression referring to the position advocated by Weismann and others (Sapp 2003, p. 68). Nonetheless, I will again follow JS’s usage.

  3. 3.
    JS uses the term “paradigm” rather informally. Once more, I will follow this informal usage, though I realize that it is fraught with problems (see, e.g., Callebaut 2010).

  4. 4.
    One further point is that Shapiro talks about active cells employing their NGE capacities in order to “engineer” adaptive change, implying that cells can be considered agents and causes of change. I will focus on this crucial aspect of his argument below.

  5. 5.
    A saltational process leading to the sudden emergence of new adaptations (or even species) was historically thought to provide an alternative to the Darwinian process based on the gradual emergence of adaptive complexity by selection (Gould 2002, esp. 143–144; Sapp 2003, p. 71).

  6. 6.
    Note that teleology is understood here in an intrinsic (i.e., Aristotelian) sense. Only an extrinsic (i.e., Platonic) sense of teleology implies an external designer (see Lennox 1992). Hence, there is no link whatsoever between this form of teleology and intelligent design or creationism.

  7. 7.
    However, sometimes JS seems to argue that even proteins possess sensing capabilities (pp. 13–14). If this is the case, then cells are not so special after all. Even subcellular components might be considered as the fundamental units of life, as the genuine biological atoms. (See Nicholson 2010 on the issue of biological atomism.)
.more to follow. . .
Except for the “protein thing” all the objections seem to be semantic objections , at worst one could argue that Shapiro didn’t used the most appropriate terms………..

But you are forgetting the most important thing……………..nobody is claiming that the Shapiro is correct beyond reasonable doubt, of course there are disagreements, that is and has always been my point, up to this point genetics is too complex and no scientists (except for yourself) claims to know beyond reasonable doubt the details and mechanisms on how organisms evolve. …the whole point that I am making in this thread is that there is disagreement on how organisms evolve, specifically on the role of non random mutations.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The problem is also your over emphasis of one scientist, Shapiro, a minority position and neglecting the rest of the research and discoveries of the sciences supporting evoluton. This is not how science works.
Your challenge is not to show sources that critique Shapiro, your challenge is to find any peer reviewed source that disagrees with anything that I have said in this thread.

Please try to do it in this order:

1 quote my specific comment (do not try to quote from memory , please find trhe actual comment made by me)

2 quote the exact sentence or paragraph from your source

3 explain why you think the source disagrees with me.
 
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