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Is Darwinism proven/accepted by official Science?

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
How do we know that "non-random mutations" actually exist? Where's the evidence?

Most mutations are random but there is evidence for nonrandom mutations influenced by the environment in the literature. This has been described best in bacteria. Part of the problem is the word random and its counterpart non-random with the later being hyped as evidence for intelligent design when is only environmental influences. There is also non random selection which confuses the issue. Here is an article discussing some not so random mutations as described for bacteria. I am not a genetics expert but maybe this helps explain some of it.

What is mutation? A chapter in the series: How microbes “jeopardize” the modern synthesis
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And it is most likely the case that you will not provide such sources
Provided many many sources over the history of these threads, and you choose to ignore them.

That is what you get wharn you have someone with a religious ID agenda, and no education in the sciences related to evolution.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes that is my point, it was not suppose to be controvertial but people like @tas8831 and @shunyadragon seem to disagree.



I accept the scientific consensus....... Organisms evolve but we don't know what mechanisms played an important role, particularly we don't know what role did non random mutations played. (agree yes or no?)

Scientists do know the roll of mutations regardless of whather they are random or non-random.
I am not controversial, and I am one of the 97%+ scientists that endorse the sciences the determin evolution is a product of natural processes with absolutely no evidence of design.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Provided many many sources over the history of these threads, and you choose to ignore them.

That is what you get wharn you have someone with a religious ID agenda, and no education in the sciences related to evolution.
I didn’t ignore any of your sources,………….I keep asking you to quote any specific paragraph from any of your sources that is in disagreement with any of the claims that I have made in this thread……... and you keep ignoring my request.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Scientists do know the roll of mutations regardless of whather they are random or non-random.
I am not controversial, and I am one of the 97%+ scientists that endorse the sciences the determin evolution is a product of natural processes with absolutely no evidence of design.
You keep repeating that comment over and over again…………… nobody is denying that evolution occurs by natural mechanisms.

The our point of disagreement is that I am arguing that non random probably played an important role while you deny that nonrandom mutations occur……….. up to this point the only one who has provided sources supporting the claim is me.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I didn’t ignore any of your sources,………….I keep asking you to quote any specific paragraph from any of your sources that is in disagreement with any of the claims that I have made in this thread……... and you keep ignoring my request.

The sources that support the science of evolution are to taken as a whole, and not the selctive disjoint citations to support an ID agenda.

Mutations are functional by type of mutation and not whether they are random or what you call non-random. The timing of the occurance of the event of all mutations is random regardless, and ALL processes of evolution are NOT random.

Your disjoint agenda driven selective misuse of references is dishonest.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Granted, non of the alternative models have been tested with definitive conclusions, but Darwinism has not been tested ether.
You don’t even understand the concept of what “tested” mean, Leroy.

I am referring to natural and physical science in general; I am not talking about Evolution alone. Natural Science involved the major branches or domain of science (eg physics, chemistry, biology, Earth science and astronomy).

“Tested” mean any observations and evidence obtained FOR or AGAINST any model (explanatory models, like hypotheses and scientific theory).

These evidence and observations will provide useful data, such as quantities, measurements, comparing the evidence against each other and comparing evidence against the models, etc, all so that scientists can test and analyse the evidence and data.

The more evidence you have, then statistically you can determine if the evidence and observations support or don’t support the model. That’s how you would determine which model is science and which isn’t science.

And Evolution have over century and a half of evidence, from botany to zoology, from paleontology to genetics, molecular biology, biochemistry, and other biology related fields.

From the 20th century to the present, they have developed technology and procedures/techniques to test these evidence, including DNA & RNA.

So for you even say Evolution “haven’t been tested”, only demonstrated you don’t know what “tested” mean. You have made yourself look and sound ignorant.

Second, there is no such as Darwinism, and Charles Darwin has never named the mechanism Natural Selection to “Darwinism”. He only ever called the field that he was pioneered in, Natural Selection.

But Darwin was only a pioneer in Natural Selection Evolution. In the decades and over a century that followed, Natural Selection has been expanded, corrected and modified, with, like new sets of techniques for testing evidence - DNA. Natural Selection is not only accepted today, it is stronger than ever, because the majority of changes to life, occurred more frequently through NS than any other mechanisms.

And to include Mutation in “Darwinism”, when Darwin never talk about Mutation, is another reason why sounds so ignorant.

The research into Mutation didn’t start until his death, in the 20th century, a new mechanism. Other mechanisms followed including Genetic Drift, Gene Flow and Genetic Hitchhiking.

But Mutation and Genetic Drift didn’t replace or refute Natural Selection. No, these other mechanisms only showed that are more than one way for life to evolve.

You keep bringing up random and non-random up.

Natural Selection is not at all random. With NS, the driving forces for changes - is the environments. Changes in environment will change the fitnesses of any organisms, and they have to adapt as population for future generations to survive.

Mutation, on the other hand, can be random or non-random, but it depends on contexts, here.

I am not a biologist, so might ask someone who know far more than I do on this subject, but from what I understand mutations occur naturally and frequently, and most changes doesn’t effect outward physical appearance.

It is only when unexpected change might occurred that might be considered random, for instance, a child developed a disease that neither sides of parents and their lines never have.

But Mutation in Evolution have nothing to do with individual offspring or even individual family, but everything to do with population.

So if the mutation occurred only in a single person, and not the population having the same mutation, then it isn’t Evolution. And in majority of cases, mutations that occurred from population to population, are more often than not, non-random.

It doesn’t matter which mechanisms we are talking about, if changes only occur in one person or one family, then it isn’t Evolution.

Evolution is all about changes that occur in populations. And unless you are bacteria or microbes, Evolution may take many generations, for any noticeable changes to populations, and it really depends on big of changes.

Now I may be wrong about what I said about random and non-random, so I am hoping that someone can help us with this.
 
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Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Yes that is my point, it was not suppose to be controvertial but people like @tas8831 and @shunyadragon seem to disagree.

I think you are just misunderstanding them.

I accept the scientific consensus....... Organisms evolve but we don't know what mechanisms played an important role, particularly we don't know what role did non random mutations played. (agree yes or no?)

No I do not agree.
Yes we do know what mechanisms played an important role. Clearly early in evolution random mutations played the only role. It is not until the genetic code becomes more complex do non-random mutations play a role at all.

What is your point about random vs non-random. Where are you going with this argument?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You keep repeating that comment over and over again…………… nobody is denying that evolution occurs by natural mechanisms.

The our point of disagreement is that I am arguing that non random probably played an important role while you deny that nonrandom mutations occur……….. up to this point the only one who has provided sources supporting the claim is me.

The role mutations play is based on the type of mutation and not whether they are random nor non-random.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member

leroy

Well-Known Member
You don’t even understand the concept of what “tested” mean, Leroy.

I am referring to natural and physical science in general; I am not talking about Evolution alone. Natural Science involved the major branches or domain of science (eg physics, chemistry, biology, Earth science and astronomy).

“Tested” mean any observations and evidence obtained FOR or AGAINST any model (explanatory models, like hypotheses and scientific theory).

These evidence and observations will provide useful data, such as quantities, measurements, comparing the evidence against each other and comparing evidence against the models, etc, all so that scientists can test and analyse the evidence and data.

The more evidence you have, then statistically you can determine if the evidence and observations support or don’t support the model. That’s how you would determine which model is science and which isn’t science.

And Evolution have over century and a half of evidence, from botany to zoology, from paleontology to genetics, molecular biology, biochemistry, and other biology related fields.

From the 20th century to the present, they have developed technology and procedures/techniques to test these evidence, including DNA & RNA.

So for you even say Evolution “haven’t been tested”, only demonstrated you don’t know what “tested” mean. You have made yourself look and sound ignorant.

Second, there is no such as Darwinism, and Charles Darwin has never named the mechanism Natural Selection to “Darwinism”. He only ever called the field that he was pioneered in, Natural Selection.

But Darwin was only a pioneer in Natural Selection Evolution. In the decades and over a century that followed, Natural Selection has been expanded, corrected and modified, with, like new sets of techniques for testing evidence - DNA. Natural Selection is not only accepted today, it is stronger than ever, because the majority of changes to life, occurred more frequently through NS than any other mechanisms.

And to include Mutation in “Darwinism”, when Darwin never talk about Mutation, is another reason why sounds so ignorant.

The research into Mutation didn’t start until his death, in the 20th century, a new mechanism. Other mechanisms followed including Genetic Drift, Gene Flow and Genetic Hitchhiking.

But Mutation and Genetic Drift didn’t replace or refute Natural Selection. No, these other mechanisms only showed that are more than one way for life to evolve.

You keep bringing up random and non-random up.

Natural Selection is not at all random. With NS, the driving forces for changes - is the environments. Changes in environment will change the fitnesses of any organisms, and they have to adapt as population for future generations to survive.

Mutation, on the other hand, can be random or non-random, but it depends on contexts, here.

I am not a biologist, so might ask someone who know far more than I do on this subject, but from what I understand mutations occur naturally and frequently, and most changes doesn’t effect outward physical appearance.

It is only when unexpected change might occurred that might be considered random, for instance, a child developed a disease that neither sides of parents and their lines never have.

But Mutation in Evolution have nothing to do with individual offspring or even individual family, but everything to do with population.

So if the mutation occurred only in a single person, and not the population having the same mutation, then it isn’t Evolution. And in majority of cases, mutations that occurred from population to population, are more often than not, non-random.

It doesn’t matter which mechanisms we are talking about, if changes only occur in one person or one family, then it isn’t Evolution.

Evolution is all about changes that occur in populations. And unless you are bacteria or microbes, Evolution may take many generations, for any noticeable changes to populations, and it really depends on big of changes.

Now I may be wrong about what I said about random and non-random, so I am hoping that someone can help us with this.


Bla Bla Bla...... Can you quote any of my comments that is in disagreement with anything that you just said?....
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No I do not agree.
Yes we do know what mechanisms played an important role. Clearly early in evolution random mutations played the only role.
clearly,???? how do you know that?

It is not until the genetic code becomes more complex do non-random mutations play a role at all.
Ok, then you are un mi side.... Try convincing @shunyadragon and @tas8831 that non random mutations played a role, perhaps they will listen to you...


What is your point about random vs non-random. Where are you going with this argument?
I am just answering to the OP

The answer would be NO Darwinism has not been proven

* With Darwinism I take it that the author of the OP meant that organisms evolve by random variation and natural selection

* with proven I mean proven beyond reasonable doubt.


Darwinism has not been proven, the evidence for non random mutations is sufficient to rise a "reasonable doubt"...... maybe non random mutations played an important role..... Agree?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Except for the fact that I provided peer review sources that suggest otherwise....

You're review of peer reviewed research was agenda driven, selective, disjoint, dishonest and you lack a basic knowledge in the science to justify your ID agenda and did not reflect the whole scientific view of mutations and evolution.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You're review of peer reviewed research was agenda driven, selective, disjoint, dishonest and you lack a basic knowledge in the science to justify your ID agenda and did not reflect the whole scientific view of mutations and evolution.
And what about the sources that people like @Wild Fox has provided confirming my point that non random mutations occure and likely played a role?( See post 561)

Are these sources also part of a secret Creationist agenda?..... Maybe wild fox is a YEC who is pretending to be an Atheist just to gain credibility in this forum...

Your problem is that you belive that any information that contradicts your current views has to be "an agenda "...... Why can't you have the humidity to admit that sometimes you might be wrong.... Non random mutations do occur so why don't you celebrate the fact that you learned something new because of me, rather than being in denial and going as far as denying the scientific consensus, just because you are too arrogant to admit your mistakes....
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And what about the sources that people like @Wild Fox has provided confirming my point that non random mutations occure and likely played a role?( See post 561)

Are these sources also part of a secret Creationist agenda?..... Maybe wild fox is a YEC who is pretending to be an Atheist just to gain credibility in this forum...

Your problem is that you belive that any information that contradicts your current views has to be "an agenda "...... Why can't you have the humidity to admit that sometimes you might be wrong.... Non random mutations do occur so why don't you celebrate the fact that you learned something new because of me, rather than being in denial and going as far as denying the scientific consensus, just because you are too arrogant to admit your mistakes....

You're review of peer reviewed research was agenda driven, selective, disjoint, dishonest and you lack a basic knowledge in the science to justify your ID agenda and did not reflect the whole scientific view of mutations and evolution.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
And what about the sources that people like @Wild Fox has provided confirming my point that non random mutations occure and likely played a role?( See post 561)

Are these sources also part of a secret Creationist agenda?..... Maybe wild fox is a YEC who is pretending to be an Atheist just to gain credibility in this forum...

Your problem is that you belive that any information that contradicts your current views has to be "an agenda "...... Why can't you have the humidity to admit that sometimes you might be wrong.... Non random mutations do occur so why don't you celebrate the fact that you learned something new because of me, rather than being in denial and going as far as denying the scientific consensus, just because you are too arrogant to admit your mistakes....

You're review of peer reviewed research was agenda driven, selective, disjoint, dishonest and you lack a basic knowledge in the science to justify your ID agenda and did not reflect the whole scientific view of mutations and evolution.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Most mutations are random but there is evidence for nonrandom mutations influenced by the environment in the literature.
Yes, that I agree with as I mistakenly thought you were asserting that there was some deity involved.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
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