Is Easter Pagan?

[Augustus]

the vernal equinox the beginning of spring was celebrated at Stonehenge it wasn’t just the summer solstice.

What is the connection between that an a Middle Eastern holiday that is linked to Passover and emerged 2000 years later in a culture that knew nothing about Stonehenge?

 

[England my lionheart]

What is the connection between that an a Middle Eastern holiday that is linked to Passover and emerged 2000 years later in a culture that knew nothing about Stonehenge?

None,it just proves that Easter has its roots in paganism in Britain.

 

[Augustus]

None,it just proves that Easter has its roots in paganism in Britain.

That makes even less sense.

Easter in Britain is exactly the same as Easter everywhere else, a Christian holy day with a date that derives from passover. The dating was set centuries before Britain was Christianised.

There isn't some special "British Easter" celebrated on a different day for different reasons, it was an import.

Some of the history in Britain:

HOW THE SYNOD OF WHITBY SETTLED THE DATE OF EASTER
The dates of our Easter holidays may seem hard to predict from year to year, but in 7th-century England things were even more confusing. There was no agreement among Christian groups on when to celebrate Easter, and it became the subject of heated discussion. At a landmark meeting known to us as the Synod of Whitby, Christian missionaries gathered at Whitby Abbey to put forward their respective arguments, and a formula was finally settled upon – the one that we still use today to determine the dates of Easter. Discover what the formula is based on and how the synod reached its decision, almost 1,400 years ago.


How the Synod of Whitby Settled the Dates of Easter

 

[England my lionheart]

That makes even less sense.

Easter in Britain is exactly the same as Easter everywhere else, a Christian holy day with a date that derives from passover. The dating was set centuries before Britain was Christianised.

There isn't some special "British Easter" celebrated on a different day for different reasons, it was an import.

Some of the history in Britain:

HOW THE SYNOD OF WHITBY SETTLED THE DATE OF EASTER
The dates of our Easter holidays may seem hard to predict from year to year, but in 7th-century England things were even more confusing. There was no agreement among Christian groups on when to celebrate Easter, and it became the subject of heated discussion. At a landmark meeting known to us as the Synod of Whitby, Christian missionaries gathered at Whitby Abbey to put forward their respective arguments, and a formula was finally settled upon – the one that we still use today to determine the dates of Easter. Discover what the formula is based on and how the synod reached its decision, almost 1,400 years ago.


How the Synod of Whitby Settled the Dates of Easter

Thats not the point,Easter as in those two religions are imports yes but it is a spring festival and already celebrated long before their appearance,the spring equinox was the beginning of the farming cycle,rebirth,the christians used the story of jesus as in his death and rebirth to integrate it into their belief system and although Bede is the only reference to Esotre there is no reason to doubt him,after all the story of Jesus is only in two of the Abrahmics and nowhere else.

 

[Augustus]

Thats not the point,Easter as in those two religions are imports yes but it is a spring festival and already celebrated long before their appearance,the spring equinox was the beginning of the farming cycle,rebirth,the christians used the story of jesus as in his death and rebirth to integrate it into their belief system and although Bede is the only reference to Esotre there is no reason to doubt him,after all the story of Jesus is only in two of the Abrahmics and nowhere else.

Bede just says there was a festival for Eostre some time in the month, and that people use the name for the Paschal season. He says nothing about Easter being the same festival.

People have festivals at all times of the year for differing reasons. The idea that every spring festival can only be a derivative copy of some other spring festival is ludicrous.

Easter is celebrated in spring in Britain because of Passover. The dating has no connection to Eostre whatsoever.

 

[England my lionheart]

Bede just says there was a festival for Eostre some time in the month, and that people use the name for the Paschal season. He says nothing about Easter being the same festival.

People have festivals at all times of the year for differing reasons. The idea that every spring festival can only be a derivative copy of some other spring festival is ludicrous.

Easter is celebrated in spring in Britain because of Passover. The dating has no connection to Eostre whatsoever.

Easter for Christians doesn't occur on the same day every year and happens between march 22nd and April 25th on a sunday,the vernal equinox falls 20/21st of march,coincidence?,for me no,the Church back then converted any way it could and sometimes forcibly so why not hijack a pagan festival.

 

[1213]

...
During Roman times, Christians co-opted spring festivals into Easter. Those spring festivals had components of the worship of Ishtar.

Please tell what components?

I think for Christians “Easter” should be basically the same as Jewish Passover, with the addition of Jesus.

 

[KW]

Peter Cotton Tail easter eggs etc......................

You think a celebration of the resurrection of Jesus is pagan?

Many events and places were Christianized as the religion spread. The original meaning of the dates or celebrations in question is irrelevant.

 

[Augustus]

Easter for Christians doesn't occur on the same day every year and happens between march 22nd and April 25th on a sunday,the vernal equinox falls 20/21st of march,coincidence?,for me no,the Church back then converted any way it could and sometimes forcibly so why not hijack a pagan festival.

The dating of Easter relates to passover because of what the gospels say about Jesus' death.

Why do you find that hard to understand? Why is it more plausible that they copied some purported pagan tradition, that may or may not have existed, in a country that has nothing to do with early Christianity, rather than they based it on their interpretation of what the Bible actually says?

 

[Kooky]

It is also how illusory connections are drawn.

Symbolism is by its very nature illusory.

There is nothing inherent to eggs that makes them signify resurrection, except the meaning people seem to have put into them for a possible variety of reasons.

It wouldn't matter what date it was or what ever symbolism was drawn, if you start with the assumption that the later thing must have been copied from somewhere there is always something you can find to confirm your prejudice.

That's why I strongly dislike terminology such as "stolen" or "copied" for something that isn't even appropriation in the strict sense. There is nothing negative about syncretism.

There is usually no evidence of 'borrowing' or influence either

Of course. And you won't find any sort of "hard" evidence for these kinds of influences to begin with, because that's not something that can be proven materially to the kind of degree you seem to expect of what are, ultimately, shared stories. The best one could ever manage is pointing out contemporeanity and shared spaces.

 

[Kooky]

Rabbits are a 19th c American addition to Easter. They have nothing to do with ancient pagan traditions.

IIRC they are German? It's possible that the hares were a regionalism that got exported to the US and then leaked into American mainstream culture, like Santa Claus or St. Patrick's Day.

 

[England my lionheart]

The dating of Easter relates to passover because of what the gospels say about Jesus' death.

Why do you find that hard to understand? Why is it more plausible that they copied some purported pagan tradition, that may or may not have existed, in a country that has nothing to do with early Christianity, rather than they based it on their interpretation of what the Bible actually says?

The gospel wasn't even heard of in Britain back then,i have already said christianity is an import so what the bible says is immaterial,the imported celebration falls conveniently at the same time as the pagan one and being that paganism came before christianity in Britain and that the pagan festival was celebrated long before the myths of the bible were imported,

 

[Augustus]

The gospel wasn't even heard of in Britain back then,i have already said christianity is an import so what the bible says is immaterial,the imported celebration falls conveniently at the same time as the pagan one and being that paganism came before christianity in Britain and that the pagan festival was celebrated long before the myths of the bible were imported,

Which "Pagan" festival in 5th C Britain fell on the first Sunday after the full Moon that occurs on or after the spring equinox?

What you are saying is that druids millennia previously perhaps held a festival on a different date but roughly similar date, therefore every other spring festival held for any reason is just a copy of that, even if the people who "copied" it had no knowledge of it and celebrated on a different date for completely different reasons and even imported the date from foreign lands where British druidry was completely irrelevant.

Might as well say the spring bank holiday is "Pagan", or half-term is "Pagan". Actually, might as well just say celebrating things is "Pagan"...

 

[Augustus]

IIRC they are German? It's possible that the hares were a regionalism that got exported to the US and then leaked into American mainstream culture, like Santa Claus or St. Patrick's Day.

Yes, that's what I meant. Easter hares were German, bunnies was the Americanisation of the trend.

As Gilbert’s artwork makes clear, the early Pennsylvania Dutch tradition, like that of Germany, typically featured a hare, known as the “Oschter Haws” or “Oster Haas,” rather than a rabbit. In Pennsylvania, the word “haws” or “haas,” was mostly translated as “rabbit” rather than “hare,” so when speaking in English, the Pennsylvania Dutch often referred to the “Easter Rabbit.”...

So what do we know of the “Easter Rabbit” tradition among the Pennsylvania Dutch?

Shoemaker explains the basics of the tradition, in which children prepared a nest for the rabbit on Easter Eve, and found it filled with colored eggs on Easter morning, “provided the child was well-behaved”:

Sometimes the children built their nests in the house (usually hiding the nest in a secluded spot, the egg-laying rabbit being somewhat on the shy side) or out in the yard, even sometimes, in the country, out in the barn. Generally speaking the children set their headgear as a nest for the Easter rabbit, the boys their woolen caps or hats and the girls their bonnets. In some families the Oschter Haws was less timid and laid his nest of colored eggs on the child’s plate set at the table. And the boldest of Easter rabbits merely deposited his eggs on the window sills.

What if the child had been naughty, or greedy? Shoemaker quotes informants who recall rabbit droppings, coal, or even horse dung being left in the nests of the undeserving.

Shoemaker also explains that the beliefs about the Easter rabbit differed from sect to sect and family to family:

In the Pennsylvania Dutch country, the Easter rabbit always lays the eggs. The “rationalists” among us tell the children that the bunny “brings” them. Among our strictest religionists, especially the Plain People, children are sometimes not told about the Easter bunny, just as they are not told about Santa Claus, “because,” as they say, “this would be lieing (sic).” [7]


On the Bunny Trail: In Search of the Easter Bunny | Folklife Today

 

[Augustus]

The best one could ever manage is pointing out contemporeanity and shared spaces.

True.

Which is generally where the "Easter is Pagan" arguments fall down.

They are just a grab bag from various cultures and various times (often with minimal evidence these are even real historical traditions) that are asserted to have been the influence on different cultures at different times.

So a 1st/2nd C holy day from the Middle East is magically based on some Anglo-Saxon goddess, or a 17th C German tradition about hares is purportedly the result of Saxon Eostre worship from 1000 years previous based on completely made up characteristics of Eostre worship (she was a fertility goddess; symbolised by rabbits, eggs, etc).

 

[England my lionheart]

Which "Pagan" festival in 5th C Britain fell on the first Sunday after the full Moon that occurs on or after the spring equinox?

What you are saying is that druids millennia previously perhaps held a festival on a different date but roughly similar date, therefore every other spring festival held for any reason is just a copy of that, even if the people who "copied" it had no knowledge of it and celebrated on a different date for completely different reasons and even imported the date from foreign lands where British druidry was completely irrelevant.

Might as well say the spring bank holiday is "Pagan", or half-term is "Pagan". Actually, might as well just say celebrating things is "Pagan"...

It wasn't only eater either,this is from "The golden Bough" by Sir James George Frazer:

What considerations led the ecclesiastical authorities to institute the festival of Christmas? The motives for the innovation are stated with great frankness by a Syrian writer, himself a Christian. “The reason,” he tells us, “why the fathers transferred the celebration of the sixth of January to the twenty-fifth of December was this. It was a custom of the heathen to celebrate on the same twenty-fifth of December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and festivities the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day and the festival of the Epiphany on the sixth of January. Accordingly, along with this custom, the practice has prevailed of kindling fires till the sixth.” The heathen origin of Christmas is plainly hinted at, if not tacitly admitted, by Augustine when he exhorts his Christian brethren not to celebrate that solemn day like the heathen on account of the sun, but on account of him who made the sun. In like manner Leo the Great rebuked the pestilent belief that Christmas was solemnised because of the birth of the new sun, as it was called, and not because of the nativity of Christ.

Thus it appears that the Christian Church chose to celebrate the birthday of its Founder on the twenty-fifth of December in order to transfer the devotion of the heathen from the Sun to him who was called the Sun of Righteousness. If that was so, there can be no intrinsic improbability in the conjecture that motives of the same sort may have led the ecclesiastical authorities to assimilate the Easter festival of the death and resurrection of their Lord


Makes sense?,i think so.

Philippe Walter, professor of medieval French literature at the University of Grenoble III, says in his book Christian Mythology that "in the process of the Christianisation of pagan religions", it was easy to associate the pagan festival that celebrated "the passage from the death of winter to the life of springtime" with Jesus's resurrection.

It was a key step in introducing "Christian commemorations" to the pagan calendar, he says, smoothing the way to mass conversion.

It's not difficult to see whats going on here,it's a strategy of the church to convert and makes absolute sense.

 

[Augustus]

It wasn't only eater either,this is from "The golden Bough" by Sir James George Frazer:

The Golden Bough is considered about 100 years out of date and was methodologically poor when it was written.

Victorian history writing is the source of most of the terrible religious history stuff that is common in pop-culture understanding but has been completely rejected by actual scholars since at least the mid 20th C.

What considerations led the ecclesiastical authorities to institute the festival of Christmas? The motives for the innovation are stated with great frankness by a Syrian writer, himself a Christian. “The reason,” he tells us, “why the fathers transferred the celebration of the sixth of January to the twenty-fifth of December was this. It was a custom of the heathen to celebrate on the same twenty-fifth of December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and festivities the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day and the festival of the Epiphany on the sixth of January. Accordingly, along with this custom, the practice has prevailed of kindling fires till the sixth.” The heathen origin of Christmas is plainly hinted at, if not tacitly admitted, by Augustine when he exhorts his Christian brethren not to celebrate that solemn day like the heathen on account of the sun, but on account of him who made the sun. In like manner Leo the Great rebuked the pestilent belief that Christmas was solemnised because of the birth of the new sun, as it was called, and not because of the nativity of Christ.

What he doesn't mention is that the "Syrian writer" was writing in the 12th C (so hardly privy to some ancient secrets) and was talking about why Catholic and Orthodox Christmas are on different days (which is to do with calendrical changes)

If you are interested in less dubious scholarship on Christmas date:

Christmas 25 Dec: Scholarly views

It's not difficult to see whats going on here,it's a strategy of the church to convert and makes absolute sense.

It may 'make sense' to people seeking to confirm their prejudices, shame it's all made up though

 

[England my lionheart]

So Sir James George Frazer wrote a book 100 years ago and is deemed "out of date" lol,does that mean the Bibles way out of date?,the Venerable Bede also gets the elbow even though he lived amongst pagans,Jesus's birth date is a guess and not even in the Bible or the crucifixion so the church stuck it's jockey on a winning pagan formula and moved the dates to make it work.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

The problem with this line of argument is that almost everything can be said to have some form of pre-Christian symbolism, or any holy day was close to some other festival in some other culture so everything can be said to be "stolen from the pagans".

Many of these argument seem to rely on the idea that Christians were incapable of creativity like other people,

Well part of that, is how you define what creativity is, and maybe another part involves how you understand history to work. History is a transport mechanism for production, and that 'production' tends accrete mass like a snowball falling from a mountain.

Many creative things you can do have limitations tool-wise. Music often uses the same scales and note patterns across styles, but that's just because there isn't really more you can do than what is possible, in some sense. The foundations of 'religious creativity' might not necessary be infinitely mutable either, in a way. If you input the value 'spirit world' into the system, than there is a lot that you might do within the domain of 'spirit world,' or 'god' or 'magic,' but those things as foundations might not be that mutable.

So you get these ludicrous arguments that Middle Eastern Christians were copying the festival of a Northern European goddess, or that Northern European Christians were copying some Middle Eastern goddess simply because some words sound vaguely similar.

Tacitus, pliny the elder, and those historian-type writers back then seemed to write about cultural exchange a bit. Tacitus says something about 'hercules visiting germany,' and something about german worship of isis? I might be misremembering that, but something like that seemed to be there. The phoenix creature in the myth seems to have visited multiple cultures, and I think it was mentioned by someone that the pythagoreans either took much influence from the druids, or vice versa

People can create their own symbolism from their own environment though.

That's why when we colonize a planet, we should agree to cut off all contact for 500 years, after we get them set up a bit. And then when we revisit and reconnect with that planet, we will get a a more mirror-like image of ourselves in a way, into human nature, because the observation will become objective?

 

[Augustus]

Well part of that, is how you define what creativity is, and maybe another part involves how you understand history to work. History is a transport mechanism for production, and that 'production' tends accrete mass like a snowball falling from a mountain.

Many creative things you can do have limitations tool-wise. Music often uses the same scales and note patterns across styles, but that's just because there isn't really more you can do than what is possible, in some sense. The foundations of 'religious creativity' might not necessary be infinitely mutable either, in a way. If you input the value 'spirit world' into the system, than there is a lot that you might do within the domain of 'spirit world,' or 'god' or 'magic,' but those things as foundations might not be that mutable.

But when we make the claim "A comes from B", we should have good reason to believe it, not simply claiming "unless you can prove A didn't come from B, then you should assume A comes from B no matter how good reasons are to think otherwise".

Tacitus, pliny the elder, and those historian-type writers back then seemed to write about cultural exchange a bit. Tacitus says something about 'hercules visiting germany,' and something about german worship of isis? I might be misremembering that, but something like that seemed to be there. The phoenix creature in the myth seems to have visited multiple cultures, and I think it was mentioned by someone that the pythagoreans either took much influence from the druids, or vice versa

The chances are he was misidentifying Germanic gods for those with similarities to gods worshipped in Rome. They often identified foreign gods with their own.

And while there was plenty of cultural exchange, it happened in places with trade/military links not from random backwater to random backwater.

That's why when we colonize a planet, we should agree to cut off all contact for 500 years, after we get them set up a bit. And then when we revisit and reconnect with that planet, we will get a a more mirror-like image of ourselves in a way, into human nature, because the observation will become objective?

We have plenty of human cultures that we can gain information from already as to things which may be more universal and those which seem more idiosyncratic