Is Erotic Pole Dancing Immoral?

[Sunstone]

On a couple of occasions, young women have asked me to take them to a dance club. On both occasions, the women have described the experience with the same word, "liberating". I think people can approach erotic dance in a variety of ways, including to find it liberating. So, perhaps it's up to the individual what they get out of it.

 

[Ðanisty]

Some men simply don't have a filter between brain and mouth. A careful eye and slight knowledge of body language can usually pick out the men who are having lwed thoughts versus the one who is thinking about his credit card bills.

Heh...sometimes it doesn't even take a careful eye or any knowledge about body language. My former roommate would rate women and he'd do it loudly. He had no shame whatsoever.

 

[Hema]

Not everybody is monogamous, nor does everyone feel such a sense of entitlement.

I realized.

The difference is one is concrete, and the other is relative. Getting pushed down the stairs, or punched in the face is a real tangible form of abuse. To say that wanting strangers to give you money to look at your body is "a spiritual disadvantage" is really just an opinion, and certainly isn't a universal moral.

That's what I said before. I said those are MY beliefs and everyone will not share them.

Lots of things promote lust. If a man chooses to go to a strip club to watch women dance, is it the woman's fault that he is thinking "bad thoughts"? If a man is looking in my window while I take a shower, am I forcing him to be lustful? In the end, we all have a personal responsibility to control our own behavior. I don't buy the idea that it's the stripper's fault if a man chooses to cheat on his wife, rather than work out his problems with her.

It is the stripper who will cause him to think "bad thoughts" about her.

How do you know I'm not? Just because I am espousing a position that disagrees with yours doesn't mean that my "spiritual path" doesn't support my ideas. Pagans are known to be very open about sex, nudity and sexual choices. Most Pagans I think would agree that stripping is not abuse. And, that's a religious perspective.

So it's written in a pagan book that a woman can strip in public?

My people are open about sex too. Where do you think the Kamasutra came from? If someone thinks that they want to have sex out of lust, that is a matter for them. I believe that sex should be out of love. That way, it becomes "love making" and not just sex. Again, I know that you might not agree so you are also entitled to your opinion.

 

[MaddLlama]

It is the stripper who will cause him to think "bad thoughts" about her.

Did she force him to go to the strip club in the first place? It's enticing, yes, but if a person finds it morally objectionable and goes in anyway because they cannot deny the temptation, who's fault is it?

So it's written in a pagan book that a woman can strip in public?

First, there is no Pagan book of law, and second, taking off your clothes in public is different than stripping for money in a private and controlled setting like a strip club.

That way, it becomes "love making" and not just sex. Again, I know that you might not agree so you are also entitled to your opinion.

I personally wouldn't have casual sex, or strip, but my personal preference doesn't mean that the things I don't like are immoral.

 

[Sunstone]

It is the stripper who will cause him to think "bad thoughts" about her.

I must beg to disagree with this. Whether someone has "bad thoughts" about a dancer depends on them, and not the dancer. When I go to a dance club, I do not fantasize about having sex with the dancers. That would actually destroy the experience for me, since I would be off in fantasy land when I should be watching. But I do realize that some people do fantasize about the dancers. So, I think it's up to the individual whether they have "bad thoughts" or not.

 

[Hema]

Did she force him to go to the strip club in the first place? It's enticing, yes, but if a person finds it morally objectionable and goes in anyway because they cannot deny the temptation, who's fault is it?

It is both their fault. If I'm a drug addict and you wave drugs in front of my face, I would be tempted and you would be encouraging my temptation.

First, there is no Pagan book of law, and second, taking off your clothes in public is different than stripping for money in a private and controlled setting like a strip club.

So, it's based on one's subjective opinion then. Even if you don't consider a strip club as public (although members of the public are there), there is also no written law in pagan schools of thought regrading this. This is also an opinion. I've long established that your opinions are different from mine. I have my opinions and you have yours. That's how it is with debates. We come from two different backgrounds.

I personally wouldn't have casual sex, or strip, but my personal preference doesn't mean that the things I don't like are immoral.

:clap Me too. I would never have casual sex or strip. Again, your statement shows an opinion, it doesn't say that the things you don't like are moral either.

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you have casual sex or strip?

 

[Hema]

[/b]I must beg to disagree with this. Whether someone has "bad thoughts" about a dancer depends on them, and not the dancer. When I go to a dance club, I do not fantasize about having sex with the dancers. That would actually destroy the experience for me, since I would be off in fantasy land when I should be watching. But I do realize that some people do fantasize about the dancers. So, I think it's up to the individual whether they have "bad thoughts" or not.

Uncle Sunstone, this is the way I see it. Say a man is married and a woman (not his wife) seduces him, she is at fault and the man is at fault. It isn't the man's fault alone.

 

[Sunstone]

Uncle Sunstone, this is the way I see it. Say a man is married and a woman (not his wife) seduces him, she is at fault and the man is at fault. It isn't the man's fault alone.

I think I see what you're saying, Hema, but I'm not sure that one is actually seduced at a dance club. That is, I'm not sure one is actually seduced into doing anything immoral.

 

[Hema]

I think I see what you're saying, Hema, but I'm not sure that one is actually seduced at a dance club. That is, I'm not sure one is actually seduced into doing anything immoral.

Okay, you are entitled to your opinion but from my point of view, it promotes lust.

 

[Sunstone]

Okay, you are entitled to your opinion but from my point of view, it promotes lust.

And you're entiteled to your opinion, of course, but from my point of view it promotes learning how to deal with lust. It places you in a situation where you either learn how to deal with desire or you become miserable.

 

[MaddLlama]

It is both their fault. If I'm a drug addict and you wave drugs in front of my face, I would be tempted and you would be encouraging my temptation.

There's a difference that you're not seeing though. With the example of drugs, let's say a person is an alcoholic and trying to quit. It is one thing for his friend to bring a 6-pack to his house, but it's quite another for the recovering alcoholic to hang in a bar all night of his own free-will. Is it the bartender's fault, or the fault of any of the strangers drinking in the bar when the alcoholic orders a whiskey? No, it's his fault for succumbing to the temptation and going into the bar in the first place.
Nobody forces anyone to watch strippers, so to go into a strip-club if you believe nekkid dancing ladies are morally objectionable isn't really anyone's fault but your own

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you have casual sex or strip?

I personally would not strip because I don't believe anybody (including myself) really wants to see me naked. I'm really just not that good-looking, fit, or good at dancing.
Casual sex is also really not my scene, and I mean that in sort of a literal way. Without getting into detail, my sexual preferences are quite specific, and work best in the confines of an ongoing relationship.

 

[Hema]

Nobody forces anyone to watch strippers, so to go into a strip-club if you believe nekkid dancing ladies are morally objectionable isn't really anyone's fault but your own.

It is both of their faults because demand and supply work hand in hand with each other. I am not at fault for having the values that I have.

 

[Hema]

I recall a conversation I had with a topless dancer once. She appeared to be a happy and well-adjusted Master's student in engineering. I asked her about herself -- her goals in life, and why she stripped (incidentally, treating her as a whole person, not just an attractive body) -- and she told me that it was about self-confidence for her. It started when she was dared at some party to strip in front of everyone, and she did. She found that she liked that feeling of being confident in herself and her body, and she decided that this was something she could do to make some extra cash to get her education.

This actually sounds like a woman with a weak self image. Come on, women are worth much more than their bodies. Self confidence is a holistic approach, not only about body consciousness. If a woman can't feel confident about herself without strange men lusting after her naked body, what does it say about her self esteem? She is feeling confident because of all the attention. There are numerous women who can hold a man's attention without taking off their clothes. They are confident with who they are as human beings. Not just as naked bodies. If that is what gives her confidence what will happen when she gets old and her body gets wrinkly and her boobs are droopy?

As for women who love to be viewed as sex symbols, in not all cases is such behaviour healthy for their mental and emotional well-being. I wish to touch on an incident concerning Pammy. Yeah I admire Pamela Anderson for her stance on defending animal rights and vegetarianism, but she also portrays herself as a sex symbol. Once she was on a beach doing a photo shoot and a group of men came up to her and started shouting vulgar comments at her. Pammy was visibly shaken up and had to be removed from the scene. I wondered why should she be shaken up if that is the way that she portrays herself? Doesn't she think that men think all those things in their mind before that group verbalized it? If a woman wants respect from a man, she should have respect for herself first.

 

[MaddLlama]

It is both of their faults because demand and supply work hand in hand with each other. I am not at fault for having the values that I have.

So, if I don't study for a test, is it my teacher's fault that I fail?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Yeah I admire Pamela Anderson for her stance on defending animal rights and vegetarianism, but she also portrays herself as a sex symbol. Once she was on a beach doing a photo shoot and a group of men came up to her and started shouting vulgar comments at her. Pammy was visibly shaken up and had to be removed from the scene. I wondered why should she be shaken up if that is the way that she portrays herself?

Good point!

Still, perhaps that's due to Pammy portraying herself as a sex symbol for want of money, not vulgar comments. Harrassment is never appropriate, even if someone is displaying themselves sexually.

 

[Hema]

So, if I don't study for a test, is it my teacher's fault that I fail?

That is totally out of context from what we're debating.

 

[Hema]

Good point!

Still, perhaps that's due to Pammy portraying herself as a sex symbol for want of money, not vulgar comments. Harrassment is never appropriate, even if someone is displaying themselves sexually.

Thank you and yes that is true. However consequences like that are almost always inevitable.

 

[MaddLlama]

That is totally out of context from what we're debating.

No, it's not. The question is whether or not a person is responsible for thier own behavior, or responsible for someone elses. It is my own fault if I fail a test, since I should have had the foresight to study. Likewise, if I'm sitting on the beach in a bikini minding my own business, it's not my fault if a man who happens to walk by cheats on his wife that night. If a diabetic is not supposed to have candy, and walks into a Dylan's Candy Bar and buys $50 worth of chocolate covered gummy bears, is it the store manager's fault if the diabetic makes herself sick?

There's no difference between any of those scenarios and what we're talking about here. You are trying to tell me that a stripper is responsible for the behavior of her clients outside of the strip club. Not every man who visits a strip club is dirty, immoral, or cheating on his wife. Besides, there are plenty of places to see half-naked women. Like, television. Does that mean that watching a show like say The L Word is immoral? Are the producer's and the actors responsible if some guy watching gets inspired to go have a one night stand?

We are all responsible for our own behavior. I am not responsible for yours, and you are not responsible for mine. There is no shortage of temptation to "sin" out there, and an equal amount of ways to avoid them. If you can't help but give into temptation, you have no one to blame but yourself. How is it ever morally acceptable to place the blame for your own problems or shortcomings on someone, or something else?

 

[eudaimonia]

This actually sounds like a woman with a weak self image.

I can understand how you would think that, but it was not my impression at the time that she was dependent on stripping to prop up her self-image. It was clear to me in speaking with her about her future that she intended to find employment as an engineer, and not continue as a stripper, which would be strange in someone who was looking for a prop.

Also, anyone who is working towards a Masters degree and an engineering career has at least some self-confidence. She didn't seem to lack this.

Self confidence is a holistic approach, not only about body consciousness. If a woman can't feel confident about herself without strange men lusting after her naked body, what does it say about her self esteem? She is feeling confident because of all the attention.

She never said she didn't feel confident about herself before being naked in front of others. Rather, she made the comment that women who are afraid to be naked in front of others may have self-confidence issues, which makes sense. She personally was able to strip because she already had self-confidence. I was merely speculating before that stripping was also a way for her to express her self-confidence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Hema]

We are all responsible for our own behavior. I am not responsible for yours, and you are not responsible for mine. There is no shortage of temptation to "sin" out there, and an equal amount of ways to avoid them. If you can't help but give into temptation, you have no one to blame but yourself. How is it ever morally acceptable to place the blame for your own problems or shortcomings on someone, or something else?

In the scenario you described with the teacher and student, there is no temptation involved.

If a drug addict seeks out a drug pusher to buy drugs, it is only the drug addict's fault and NOT the drug pusher's? If that was the case, the police would have no reason to arrest drug dealers who just HAVE drugs but have not as yet sold them to anyone. If the police swoop down on both of them, should they arrest only the buyer because he fell for temptaion, because the drug dealer did not force anyone to buy drugs? The buyer came to the dealer.