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Is Evolution Conscious (Some amazing points about evolution)

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Some amazing things in evolution. Got any others?

Milk is made from blood, in short; proteins etc; are taken out of the blood to make milk. It is possible that blood is found in the milk.
Women can keep their milk up as long as it is needed. This might be why there is such a fascination with breasts by men and women alike; it might have been a survival tactic many years ago. In other words it was noticed that the young suckled on them, so adults started to also when they were short of food or water. It would seem to make sense why there is such a fascination with them in the first place, and especially they are bigger.

But how on earth it evolved is anybodies guess.

Interesting how it is made out of blood however, considering it is the blood of the Saviour that saves us.

Even the sound of a baby crying can start the milk flowing. Again, how that would occur without any intelligence in evolution is beyond sense. Saying it is beneficial is one thing, and saying because of that it would be selected is another, but to say that it even occurred in the first place, considering it is so advantagous, just seems plain stupid.

I shall add to the list the form of the face. Why, someone asked on TV, is the face the way it is. That answer by a sceintist was that there was a very good reason why it was that way. And that is: when we lift food to our mouth, we see the food, and then smell the food, BEFORE it goes into our mouth.
Makes sense when you think of it. But how would this occur by sheer chance? Again, it is not a surprise that it had some advantage so was selected, but that it should happen in the first place so that it could be selected. That is the fascinating thing about it. It is akin to saying that it is of no surprise that someone had to win the race, after all, someone has to be first, right? But the surprise is that, without intelligence, they all end up at the venue on the right day, right time, right event, trained and ready to race. Now that is amazing!

What else is strange?

How about eyebrows?
They say that eyebrows are there to stop sweat going into your eyes. So how did those who had no eyebrows go on? Did they die because they could not see? It would hardly seem like much of an answer. So what then ?

The shape of the nose seems to sweep away water from the mouth, just as the shape of the lips sweeps away anything coming out of the nose. The lips tend to protude which also tends to keep things out. They eyes are sunk in so that if you bang your face you do not hit the eye. It might be easy to see that those who had protuding eyes-- like some animals-- died, but to say that there were others waiting there with sunken eyes seems a little rich to say the least.

Intelligence thrown into the equation answers it all straight away though. With intelligence we have an evolving conscious nature. Now there seems to be some sense in why these things do what they do. But without it, how do we accept that the runners all turn up at the right venue, right day, right time, right event? Is that not luck without intelligence?

Now some will say it is a process or mechanism. Fine. But how does that come about? Without intelligence it is still luck. So now we have an automatic bus system that picks everybody up. That would seem to work. All the athletes arrive at the right time. But who organises the bus? Does that not require intelligence. ......

got any others?
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
When I say that breastmilk might have been important for adults, I mean are primordial past
 

Ultimatum

Classical Liberal
In reply to the title:

Evolution is not conscious. It's a biological, mass-ecosystemic process, which through natural selection, may or may not weed out unfavourable traits (although it is most likely).
And remember, selection is the polar opposite to chance.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I'm not going to go through every example you put forward right now, but on eyebrows - seeing as we were covered in hair prior to Homo erectus times, it was more that the other hair thinned, leaving little islands on the head, the eyebrows, the armpits, the eyebrows, pubic region etc
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Intelligence thrown into the equation answers it all straight away though. With intelligence we have an evolving conscious nature. Now there seems to be some sense in why these things do what they do. But without it, how do we accept that the runners all turn up at the right venue, right day, right time, right event? Is that not luck without intelligence?

Taking this out of the realm of science/evidence for moment, is it not possible that this is really a rather profound difference of opinion as to whether things are the result of consciousness or material causality/a difference of interpretation of the same evidence? you prefer explanations that attribute a role to consciousness/god and I just wondered why you may not be comfortable with an explanation without intelligence? I'm not going into the issue as to whether it is valid as I'm just curious.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I'm not going to go through every example you put forward right now, but on eyebrows - seeing as we were covered in hair prior to Homo erectus times, it was more that the other hair thinned, leaving little islands on the head, the eyebrows, the armpits, the eyebrows, pubic region etc
But why would it? I mean, it has to leave some, which means either others didn't and they died, or it was sheer luck.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Evolution is a tool of consciousness; the mechanism being formed by consciousness. It itself is not conscious imo.
But without it, how do we accept that the runners all turn up at the right venue, right day, right time, right event?
Good point!
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Taking this out of the realm of science/evidence for moment, is it not possible that this is really a rather profound difference of opinion as to whether things are the result of consciousness or material causality/a difference of interpretation of the same evidence? you prefer explanations that attribute a role to consciousness/god and I just wondered why you may not be comfortable with an explanation without intelligence? I'm not going into the issue as to whether it is valid as I'm just curious.
Well yours is one of the most productive statements I think. I know, in basic terms, how evolution works, and, from a science point of view, a physical point of view, I have no problem with it. But I don't see that is all it is. The eyebrows for example. Why? Why are they left there when the other hair fell out? I mean seriously think about this. How would it manage such a thing. Please, I am not talking about the physical processes etc. I mean why would the ones with eyebrows survive? Where is the benefit? It sounds a bit ridiculous don't you think?

It would be nice if someone would engage with this conversation properly rather than just saying 'evolution did it'.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
But why would it? I mean, it has to leave some, which means either others didn't and they died, or it was sheer luck.

Well, it didn't have to leave some. But those with hair in certain areas remaining thick were at an advantage, so it never really fully thinned out there the way it did on the rest of the body.

It wouldn't have been 'eyebrows or no eyebrows' it would have been 'marginally thinner eyebrow hair or marginally thicker eyebrow hair'
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I mean, it has to leave some, which means either others didn't and they died, or it was sheer luck.

Survival of the fittest is the general principle, in other words those individuals best adapted to an environment stand the best chance of surviving and passing on the "successful" genes.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
@Robert.Evans While I personally accept evolution is true and non-conscious, I by no means malign your opinion/belief that it is conscious. Nevertheless, having studied evolution for many years in both a formal and informal capacity, I will do my best to answer any questions you might have in line with evolutionary theory.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Evolution explains it all quite elegantly.
Does it? Really? I don't think so. I think just as some accept that God is the answer, others accept that Evolution is the answer. But I don't think it answers everything well enough.

Why would our face be as it is? Sure there is an advantage, but why would it even come up with a solution in the first place? Is it not akin to a labourer having every possible tool there is for every possible job?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I mean why would the ones with eyebrows survive? Where is the benefit?

Eyebrows are good at keeping sweat and rain out of the eyes, which means you can see clearly more of the time. That's an obvious advantage in terms of survival, particularly if there are hungry animals with sharp teeth around.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Well, it didn't have to leave some. But those with hair in certain areas remaining thick were at an advantage, so it never really fully thinned out there the way it did on the rest of the body.

It wouldn't have been 'eyebrows or no eyebrows' it would have been 'marginally thinner eyebrow hair or marginally thicker eyebrow hair'
But that means that some had no hair, and they died out. Why?
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Survival of the fittest is the general principle, in other words those individuals best adapted to an environment stand the best chance of surviving and passing on the "successful" genes.
But there has to be something better though. I can imagine that happening of course, I think anyone could. But when we see something turn out so well, it begins to look contrived. Why would it have in its tool bag the perfect answer?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Why would our face be as it is?

Obviously we need a mouth to eat / taste and a nose to smell, also to inhale and exhale. We need two eyes to judge distance and two ears to judge direction. It makes sense to have the ears and eyes as high as possible, and to have the nose above the mouth.
 
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