Is Evolution Conscious (Some amazing points about evolution)

[Rick O'Shez]

You need to stop giving the pat answers that explain it, and explain it in simple terms.

I have explained it in simple terms. Once you understand the basic principles of evolution it's mostly common sense. So maybe spend some time on those basic principles, like survival of the fittest, adaptation, natural selection.

Why do you think we have all those specialised dog breeds? Simply because we have bred them over a period of time to accentuate the characteristics we want. If you understand that principle you will be halfway there.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I addressed the eyebrow issue in a previous post.

I had a look online, and couldn't find reference to this piece of cartilage you mention, could you clarify?

Based on what you've said, the purpose seems to be stabilising the head.



Plus having to lift your hands and wipe while running might obscure vision and decrease speed.



No, that isn't in line with the theory of evolution.

I never said they lost all their hair. Reread my post carefully. And it's not 'survive or die' it's 'higher chance of reproductive success'.

I can't state for a fact that the cartilage is correct. I will have to look if no one else comes up with it.
If you are saying then that all the hair did not fall out and was left over the eyes, then why did it do that?
Plain answer in real terms please.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But I still come back to why would those without eyebrows die?

Because if you are being chased by a wild animal and get sweat in your eyes and can't see properly then you are more likely to be eaten.

 

[Kirran]

I can't state for a fact that the cartilage is correct. I will have to look if no one else comes up with it.
If you are saying then that all the hair did not fall out and was left over the eyes, then why did it do that?
Plain answer in real terms please.

Let's not worry about the cartilage right now then.

There's no falling out here. I can have a child who is less hairy than I am. No hair has fallen anywhere for this to occur.

As for the purposes of eyebrows, I posted a link to a Wikipedia page in a previous post.

 

[Kirran]

Because if you are being chased by a wild animal and get sweat in your eyes and can't see properly then you are more likely to be eaten.

Or while hunting, less likely to be successful. Without food, maybe you don't have it to offer at home, so your social standing suffers, or maybe you aren't as well-nourished, so you're less attractive.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I have explained it in simple terms. Once you understand the basic principles of evolution it's mostly common sense. So maybe spend some time on those basic principles, like survival of the fittest, adaptation, natural selection.

Why do you think we have all those specialised dog breeds? Simply because we have bred them over a period of time to accentuate the characteristics we want. If you understand that principle you will be halfway there.

Are you saying that all the hair fell out and that some were left and they had the advantage? I would have to ask why some would not fall out. If you check out the link on eyebrows on wiki, some think it might be to do with showing your feelings and moods. That would seem to mean that having no eyebrows would be an advantage as no one would no when you were angry and likely to strike, thus you have the advantage.

 

[Kirran]

Are you saying that all the hair fell out and that some were left and they had the advantage? I would have to ask why some would not fall out. If you check out the link on eyebrows on wiki, some think it might be to do with showing your feelings and moods. That would seem to mean that having no eyebrows would be an advantage as no one would no when you were angry and likely to strike, thus you have the advantage.

It's more important in terms of reproductive fitness that people are able to communicate well.

But in any case this is only one advantage to having eyebrows, and I suspect might have been secondary to keeping sweat etc out of the eyes.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If you check out the link on eyebrows on wiki, some think it might be to do with showing your feelings and moods. That would seem to mean that having no eyebrows would be an advantage as no one would no when you were angry and likely to strike, thus you have the advantage.

Could be, though I would think that with this example the ability to show moods would be secondary to adaptation for physical survival.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Let's not worry about the cartilage right now then.

There's no falling out here. I can have a child who is less hairy than I am. No hair has fallen anywhere for this to occur.

As for the purposes of eyebrows, I posted a link to a Wikipedia page in a previous post.

At one time we had hair all over to a thicker degree than now; for it to fall out, and we would assume that it fell all out on some, (in order to have survival of the fittest) we have to account for why those without eyebrows died. You don't seem to see this.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If you are saying then that all the hair did not fall out and was left over the eyes, then why did it do that?

People who favour intelligent design are going to have even more problems with questions like this.

 

[Laika]

Well thankyou for acknowledging what I am saying. Best reply so far. But I still come back to why would those without eyebrows die?
We have to have an advantage or disadvantage shown. I see none.

for the record, I don't know what the scientific explanation for why humans have eyebrows is. Science is always a growing body of knowledge and therefore cannot necessarily explai everything at the moment; it is as fallible and as limited as the human beings that practice it. Whereas religion, especially if it has a god that cliams omniscience, does.

I don't think it is as direct or as instant that someone who does not have eye brows will die. [if you have evidence to the contrary, let me know]. The process of natural selection means that those who are best adapted to their environment survive this can include both individual survival and survival by co-operation.
it could be something to do with sexual selection in so far as eye brows are a way to communicate emotions, (i.e. those without them are therefore less attractive?) but that would be a complete guess. Science does allow for accidents as things can happen without necessarily being related to evolutionary struggle for survival- but that leaves a puzzle as to why we would have them in the first place. so I remain stuck if I am honest.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

At one time we had hair all over to a thicker degree than now; for it to fall out, and we would assume that it fell all out on some, (in order to have survival of the fittest) we have to account for why those without eyebrows died.

We've explained that already. It's a definite advantage to have eyebrows in order to keep out rain and sweat from the eyes, better chance of surviving an attack, better chance when hunting.

 

[Kirran]

At one time we had hair all over to a thicker degree than now; for it to fall out, and we would assume that it fell all out on some, (in order to have survival of the fittest) we have to account for why those without eyebrows died. You don't seem to see this.

No, I'm sorry, you don't seem to grasp the mechanisms involved.

Those individuals with hair over their eyes which was thin enough to allow sweat to flow into their eyes would have been marginally obstructed in hunting and in escaping predators, due to the fact they'd temporarily have their vision obstructed and have to use their hands to clear the sweat away often, resulting in further reduction of vision as well as reducing running efficiency. Therefore, their chances at catching food and at escaping predators would be lower, and so they'd on average produce less offspring than those with full eyebrows, meaning full eyebrows became the most common in later generations, as generations went by.

EDIT: To clarify: nobody need not have had eyebrows at any point here.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

No, I'm sorry, you don't seem to grasp the mechanisms involved.

I'm sensing that's the problem here. Basic principles.

 

[Kirran]

I'm sensing that's the problem here. Basic principles.

Let us endeavour to explain the principles as clearly as feasible

 

[Robert.Evans]

Now Lieberman is studying the role in upright locomotion of a tiny slip of muscle in the neck called the cleidocranial trapezius—all that remains of a massive shoulder muscle in chimps and other apes—which steadies our head during running, preventing it from bobbling.
National Geographic Magazine - NGM.com

 

[Kirran]

Now Lieberman is studying the role in upright locomotion of a tiny slip of muscle in the neck called the cleidocranial trapezius—all that remains of a massive shoulder muscle in chimps and other apes—which steadies our head during running, preventing it from bobbling.
National Geographic Magazine - NGM.com

Well, that seems interesting. The massive shoulder muscle found in chimps and other apes was probably also possessed by our ancestors. However, a selection pressure acted against it as we became bipedal, and it atrophied until it reached the size it is now, below which it would have ceased to be useful for its remaining purpose of supporting the neck.

 

[savagewind]

Because if you are being chased by a wild animal and get sweat in your eyes and can't see properly then you are more likely to be eaten.

But hair can get in the eyes too. So why long hair?

 

[savagewind]

One amino acid forms on one side of Earth. Another amino acid forms on another side. They need each other. How do they find each other? Did you not know what transport means? Now you know!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

So why long hair?

Because they hadn't invented barbers.