Is Evolution Conscious (Some amazing points about evolution)

[Kirran]

And also the 4 cusps molars.
--edit

Let me correct that. I learned this years ago, and I see now, looking it up, that newer research show no correlation on cusp size.

Are you educated in a life sciences field yourself?

 

[Ouroboros]

Are you educated in a life sciences field yourself?

I got a degree in I guess would be called natural science, back in my home country, 40 years ago, but I didn't go into a scientific field. It was computers that attracted me most, so I was a computer consultant and had my own businesses at different times. Several years ago, I decided to sell my part and go back to school at a local college. I've been taking a bunch of classes (some of them in anthropology), at first to get a second degree, but then I decided not to and early retire instead. Less stress.

(I also took classes in calculus, philosophy, psychology, sociology, and so on. But nothing on any higher level. Very renaissance style. I know a little about everything, but much of almost nothing. )

 

[Rick O'Shez]

We understand it slightly differently now because the divine evolves-

Sorry but I have no idea what this means or how it relates to what we were just discussing. It seems like you throw in these one-liners at random intervals.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Evolution is actually quite anarchic - the idea of a conscious sense of evolutionary change, which by nature is bound to an endless variety of different variables, is pretty ignorant.

 

[Robert.Evans]

It does, and it's interesting that neanderthals had a bigger brain (in volume) and required 6,000 kcal per day. Could be a part why they couldn't survive when the ice age hit. H. sapiens have a smaller brain in volume, but more intricate folding, and consume less energy. It's basically more efficient, which might be our luck compared to neanderthals. It's possible that our more advanced brain helped us find shelter and food during that time, when neanderthals couldn't.

Much like you can get a more efficient engine. It's almost as if there is some sort of print that everything is following.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I can't find it right now, but there was some priest long time ago suggesting that God was evolving. Universe, man, God, all in one evolving, changing reality.

Don't trouble yourself too much on my account.... I agree with it. That is my understanding. Of course I cannot say that is the Origin doing that, but only the Image.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I disagree on that. Things are not that honed, perfect, or complete at all. It's a jumbled up hash of things, and some things work a little better than others, but there are few perfect or complete "designs" in nature. Ask a biologist about the different pars in our body and if they're really that perfect or not. You'll learn about how the tubes for male organs are taking a weird detour loop that's part of causing problems when he gets older. Or the nerves for the vocal box that starts next to where it ends, but takes a long path down to the heart first and up again, slowing nerve signals. Or how the blink reflex for a dog is going next to their ears, causing risks of losing blink reflexes if they have to have an ear surgery. Or an immune system that can deal with some diseases perfectly, but is completely incapable in other cases. And so on. Did you know that sickle cell disease (a genetic disease) will kill a person who has both pairs from both parents, but will survive if he has only one. And in fact, will survive better than a non-sickle cell person if infected by malaria (which is why sickle cell is increasing in countries with malaria), but at the same time, a person with one sickle cell gene can't run very long and can even die from exhaustion. So here is an example of something that's bad, but good, but kinda bad, yet kinda good... It's not perfect, but it gives a slightly better deal in some specific situations. It's like playing poker and having the best hand, that's the best had at the table, not necessarily a royal straight flush. The species aren't royal straight flushes, but they're rather two pairs, flush, a small straight, a full house, in each game where there were other, worse hands.

I didn't wish to imply that I thought it was ''perfect'' perfect, if you see what I mean. I find the examples interesting and they make some sense to me why they would be that considering the divine print.

 

[Ouroboros]

I didn't wish to imply that I thought it was ''perfect'' perfect, if you see what I mean. I find the examples interesting and they make some sense to me why they would be that considering the divine print.

Right. The divine print might be that life is guaranteed to evolve in this universe. Some mathematician or scientist has suggested as much, based on entropy and laws of thermodynamics. Since entropy isn't a straight line from order to chaos, but it's a very dynamic system with pockets of higher and lower energy, it might be unavoidable that we get energy-consuming entities in between these states, which leads to life systems.

Another thought I had, dinosaurs ruled the earth for a very long time, but never gained any particular high intelligence or capacity to build machines etc, same with the dolphins, even though they're quite smart. I believe that there's something to bipedalism and opposable thumbs that are necessary to evolve further to tool making and then concepts, art, education, philosophy, engineering, ... I'm not sure dolphins could develop the kind of society we have, or short armed T-rexes for that matter.

 

[Laika]

I think the consensus in science, even atheist scientists, is that the big bang is right, and that at some point the universe will die. Some say it might freeze and others think it might be a big crunch etc. I certainly see it as having a beginning and an end. Though I have no difficulty with the multiverse idea either, though I think the realities of existence of us and everything are infinite.

yeah, I might be on my own on that one. I want to believe that something came from something, not that something came from nothing. The "big bang" doesn't make sense. Maybe I should be a creationist.

The development, or, evolution, of the universe and everything in it, is like water looking for a recess or base level in order to run into. Once this is done, it is what it is. If you look at some of Goswami or Hagelin's work, they say that at the micro level, on the smallest of the small level, everything is an ocean of existence, and that we are like the waves on that ocean.
To me, we are the offspring of that original existence.

I don't know either of the two people you mentioned, but I'll take you're word for it.

I wouldn't call it a blue-print, but rather, a print. The reason is because error occurs with in the print, which you would not expect in a blue-print. That goes into Theology a bit so I won't trouble you. The short of it is, error gets thrown out, and is why, ultimately, we exist in this physical plane.

No that makes complete sense. There is so much going on, that it cannot simply follow a single divine plan or blueprint. it works for scientific knowledge as it is always incomplete and imperfect. there are anomalies, accidents and errors along the way that don't fit into our understanding.

To project our own Selfs into the universe, to me, is not a problem, as I believe in the Divine. You have to ask yourself why it is that we can explain so much of the universe in the first place. Do you not find that quite absurd? I mean, really, apes got a bit cleverer, and then decided to fly to the moon and nuclear power. Some apes! We accept it as we see it. But if you think about it, if you were to write about it without knowledge of such things, it would sound a little over the top I think.
The Theology behind us understanding the universe is because we were part of creating it. It is the same consciousness as us and of the Divine. Does that make sense then how we can understand it? Sure. But as time goes on, we forget, so we have to look and learn again for something we already know, but have forgotten.
That is the same with evolution.

I confess that whilst I find the big bang absurd, I don't find the existence of our consciousness absurd. I think this might be more to do with intuition than reasoning alone. Perhaps I'm simply more used to it and that's the difference. Although I may have watched too many Planet of the Apes movies.
The idea that man came from apes seems natural and logical to me because we have so much in common, particularly because we are social and empathic creatures; just one had evolved the brains to articulate it with thought, language etc. With that comes knowledge and possibilities!

I don't know really. is it perhaps that we learned to see the world differently and therefore find different things absurd?

 

[Robert.Evans]

........Another thought I had, dinosaurs ruled the earth for a very long time, but never gained any particular high intelligence or capacity to build machines etc, same with the dolphins, even though they're quite smart. I believe that there's something to bipedalism and opposable thumbs that are necessary to evolve further to tool making and then concepts, art, education, philosophy, engineering, ... I'm not sure dolphins could develop the kind of society we have, or short armed T-rexes for that matter.

That is quite an amazing thing to say! Interesting. But that has to relate to difference in brain function and growth of intelligence, right? But the bipedal system, to me, is part of the first principle, which is, the separation of the left and right (or masculine and feminine if you like). So what you said would make great sense.

Interesting that the hands to show an opposite, don't you think? They are a mirror image are they not? To me that is right because it shows the mirror print, again part of that first division of the divine. Words like that just light up to me. They make great sense.

 

[Robert.Evans]

yeah, I might be on my own on that

one. I want to believe that something came from something, not that something came from

nothing. The "big bang" doesn't make sense. Maybe I should be a creationist.

I have no problem though with the multiverse, and if you listen to Micheo Kaku, he has a wonderful way of explaining it all.

I don't know either of the two people you mentioned, but I'll take you're word for it.

If you look them up, they are not accepted by mainstream science. One might call it theory, or perhaps not. I'll try and post something about them if your interested. My signature shows Hagelin.

No that makes complete sense. There is so much going on, that it cannot simply follow a single

divine plan or blueprint. it works for scientific knowledge as it is always incomplete and

imperfect. there are anomalies, accidents and errors along the way that don't fit into our

understanding.

Yes!

I confess that whilst I find the big bang absurd, I don't find the existence of our consciousness

absurd. I think this might be more to do with intuition than reasoning alone. Perhaps I'm simply

more used to it and that's the difference. Although I may have watched too many Planet of the

Apes movies.

I like the singularity of the big bang as I see everything coming from a Singularity, but one that is the Origin of everything. Following that same print again, we would expect to see that here, and we do. It is part of the ''Let there be light'' idea in Genesis 1. That is my understanding.

Is it just me, or have you ever thought that the planet of the apes was more about the fear of blacks taking over whites, than apes?

The idea that man came from apes seems natural and logical to me because we have so much in

common, particularly because we are social and empathic creatures; just one had evolved the

brains to articulate it with thought, language etc. With that comes knowledge and possibilities!

I don't know really. is it perhaps that we learned to see the world differently and therefore find

different things absurd?

 

[Ouroboros]

That is quite an amazing thing to say! Interesting. But that has to relate to difference in brain function and growth of intelligence, right? But the bipedal system, to me, is part of the first principle, which is, the separation of the left and right (or masculine and feminine if you like). So what you said would make great sense.

Bipedalism was definitely a very important step (pun alert!) in the right direction. It was kind'a necessary to develop hand agility.

Interesting that the hands to show an opposite, don't you think? They are a mirror image are they not? To me that is right because it shows the mirror print, again part of that first division of the divine. Words like that just light up to me. They make great sense.

But most important, the thumbs. We can grip small things.

Oh, another thing I thought about yesterday regarding being "perfect" or such. Humans have a different kind of muscles. We evolved to have endurance. We don't run fast, but we can run far. Most animals have the fast kind'a muscles, meaning a panther can run 30 mph (or something), but only for some short distance. The panther's speed is perfect for it to hunt the way it does, by surprise. Human's slow speed but endurance is perfect for wearing out the fast animals until they can't run anymore, but we can. So perfect in different ways.

 

[Laika]

I have no problem though with the multiverse, and if you listen to Micheo Kaku, he has a wonderful way of explaining it all.

If you look them up, they are not accepted by mainstream science. One might call it theory, or perhaps not. I'll try and post something about them if your interested. My signature shows Hagelin.

I'm a fan of Micheao Kaku as he did some documentaries about the "science of the future", so I will have to look it up sometime. And no probs, I'm open to what may be called pseudo-science if it's convincing from a philosophical point of view. I find the philosophical controversies in Soviet Science interesting even though there completely ignored nowadays I like exploring what possible and being heretical as it's more fun. If you want to post a link you're very welcome to.

I like the singularity of the big bang as I see everything coming from a Singularity, but one that is the Origin of everything. Following that same print again, we would expect to see that here, and we do. It is part of the ''Let there be light'' idea in Genesis 1. That is my understanding.

intuitively I want it to be a "steady state universe"; it's a little alarming that something as big as the universe can be "born" and "die". Maybe I just find it alarming and that's why I'm not keen on the Big Bang.

Is it just me, or have you ever thought that the planet of the apes was more about the fear of blacks taking over whites, than apes?

Yeah. that is one possible interpretation. I think in the 19th century, Social Darwinists argued that black people were more "primitive" in terms of their civilization and attributed it to racial/genetic reasons. They argued that black people were therefore lower in the evolution chain/closer to apes. complete b******t of course, but as a racist slur it's still stuck.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Without intelligence it is still luck.

That just about sums it up for me and since I'm not a big believer in luck...

 

[Kirran]

That just about sums it up for me and since I'm not a big believer in luck...

I think it's more accurately described as chance - the process wasn't directional, or teleological.

 

[SkylarHunter]

I think it's more accurately described as chance - the process wasn't directional, or teleological.

I believe in chance as much as I believe in luck. When I see too many coincidences, I start seeing connections.

 

[Kirran]

I believe in chance as much as I believe in luck. When I see too many coincidences, I start seeing connections.

Views of how things work vary. It's all an illusion thrown up by the mind in any case, so it's of little importance. IMO.

 

[leibowde84]

Some amazing things in evolution. Got any others?

Milk is made from blood, in short; proteins etc; are taken out of the blood to make milk. It is possible that blood is found in the milk.
Women can keep their milk up as long as it is needed. This might be why there is such a fascination with breasts by men and women alike; it might have been a survival tactic many years ago. In other words it was noticed that the young suckled on them, so adults started to also when they were short of food or water. It would seem to make sense why there is such a fascination with them in the first place, and especially they are bigger.

But how on earth it evolved is anybodies guess.

Interesting how it is made out of blood however, considering it is the blood of the Saviour that saves us.

Even the sound of a baby crying can start the milk flowing. Again, how that would occur without any intelligence in evolution is beyond sense. Saying it is beneficial is one thing, and saying because of that it would be selected is another, but to say that it even occurred in the first place, considering it is so advantagous, just seems plain stupid.

I shall add to the list the form of the face. Why, someone asked on TV, is the face the way it is. That answer by a sceintist was that there was a very good reason why it was that way. And that is: when we lift food to our mouth, we see the food, and then smell the food, BEFORE it goes into our mouth.
Makes sense when you think of it. But how would this occur by sheer chance? Again, it is not a surprise that it had some advantage so was selected, but that it should happen in the first place so that it could be selected. That is the fascinating thing about it. It is akin to saying that it is of no surprise that someone had to win the race, after all, someone has to be first, right? But the surprise is that, without intelligence, they all end up at the venue on the right day, right time, right event, trained and ready to race. Now that is amazing!

What else is strange?

How about eyebrows?
They say that eyebrows are there to stop sweat going into your eyes. So how did those who had no eyebrows go on? Did they die because they could not see? It would hardly seem like much of an answer. So what then ?

The shape of the nose seems to sweep away water from the mouth, just as the shape of the lips sweeps away anything coming out of the nose. The lips tend to protude which also tends to keep things out. They eyes are sunk in so that if you bang your face you do not hit the eye. It might be easy to see that those who had protuding eyes-- like some animals-- died, but to say that there were others waiting there with sunken eyes seems a little rich to say the least.

Intelligence thrown into the equation answers it all straight away though. With intelligence we have an evolving conscious nature. Now there seems to be some sense in why these things do what they do. But without it, how do we accept that the runners all turn up at the right venue, right day, right time, right event? Is that not luck without intelligence?

Now some will say it is a process or mechanism. Fine. But how does that come about? Without intelligence it is still luck. So now we have an automatic bus system that picks everybody up. That would seem to work. All the athletes arrive at the right time. But who organises the bus? Does that not require intelligence. ......

got any others?

Evolution is merely an explanation of what is seen in reality. To say that it has a consiousness seems pretty absurd. But, I get your confusion. It can be dismantled with a simple understanding. Evolution is based on mutations. Before a beneficial mutuation occurs, there were most likely thousands, if not millions, of mutations that had a negative effect. Thus, if there is a designer, they would be far from perfect or even pretty decent. Considering that, on average, millions of unhelpful mutations plague a species before one comes along and helps it makes a designer seem unfounded, imho.

 

[Kirran]

Evolution is merely an explanation of what is seen in reality. To say that it has a consiousness seems pretty absurd. But, I get your confusion. It can be dismantled with a simple understanding. Evolution is based on mutations. Before a beneficial mutuation occurs, there were most likely thousands, if not millions, of mutations that had a negative effect. Thus, if there is a designer, they would be far from perfect or even pretty decent. Considering that, on average, millions of unhelpful mutations plague a species before one comes along and helps it makes a designer seem unfounded, imho.

Modern-day examples - honeybees die when they sting you, hereditary diseases, cancers,

 

[leibowde84]

Modern-day examples - honeybees die when they sting you, hereditary diseases, cancers,

Exactly.