Is Evolution Conscious (Some amazing points about evolution)

[Ouroboros]

Do you think Evolution is a complete theory as it stands?

A scientific theory is never complete. It only explains things. It doesn't have all explanations, and sometimes it contains the wrong explanations. A fact is complete, however, it stands on its own. A fact just is. A theory is a model to explain the facts.

Evolution is a fact in the sense that we do know that species evolve, based on the evidence.

The Theory of Evolution is the model to how and why it does this, and it's a compilation of many different sciences and facts all together. Not everything in the theory is always correct or complete, but that's what scientists are constantly testing, to see which parts hold up to scrutiny and test, and what doesn't. So far, that species evolve holds up in all tests.

 

[bmk2416]

Why do you think that I consider a scientific theory a "fact"? I never said that, and I certainly do not consider that to be the case. A scientific theory is one that is based on observations rather than ideas or things that "make sense" subjectively. It is merely a strengthened theory, if you will. Obviously, even evolution might be found to be incorrect down the road. That is surey possible, but it is certainly the best explanation that has been developed thus far, as it has been shown to be consistent with scientific discoveries time and time again.

Well then again if you're not implying it's a fact, a substantiated theory is still a glorified way to say guess in my opinion.

And yes I think that is where we differ I think there is more evidence for a theistic explanation.

 

[leibowde84]

So what is a secular Christian?

Do you think Evolution is a complete theory as it stands?
My idea is that without some sort of direction, it is hopeless. It would be like having balls on a flat surface. Nothing happens. introduce a slope and suddenly it all makes sense and things happen.

A secular Christian is one who strongly feels that religious beliefs have no place in government, no matter how strongly those beliefs are held (even by the majority).

I do think that it is possible for evolution to stand on its own. Mutations occur naturally, we know this. Life has been around with these mutations for roughly 3.5 billion years. Most mutations will cause individual animals to die more quickly. But, once in a while, one will come along that is beneficial (like the one that made Polar Bears white, for example), and allows that animal to live longer and reproduce more. The only drive that is necessary is the will to survive and the will to reproduce.

 

[bmk2416]

A scientific theory is never complete. It only explains things. It doesn't have all explanations, and sometimes it contains the wrong explanations. A fact is complete, however, it stands on its own. A fact just is. A theory is a model to explain the facts.

Evolution is a fact in the sense that we do know that species evolve, based on the evidence.

The Theory of Evolution is the model to how and why it does this, and it's a compilation of many different sciences and facts all together. Not everything in the theory is always correct or complete, but that's what scientists are constantly testing, to see which parts hold up to scrutiny and test, and what doesn't. So far, that species evolve holds up in all tests.

I agree, but that means that the theistic theory holds just as much weight if neither can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt

 

[leibowde84]

Just don't start any wars.

Did Churchill "start a war?" Or did I misunderstand your comment?

 

[Robert.Evans]

A scientific theory is never complete. It only explains things. It doesn't have all explanations, and sometimes it contains the wrong explanations. A fact is complete, however, it stands on its own. A fact just is. A theory is a model to explain the facts.

Evolution is a fact in the sense that we do know that species evolve, based on the evidence.

The Theory of Evolution is the model to how and why it does this, and it's a compilation of many different sciences and facts all together. Not everything in the theory is always correct or complete, but that's what scientists are constantly testing, to see which parts hold up to scrutiny and test, and what doesn't. So far, that species evolve holds up in all tests.

Well, I suppose you know some of my thinking. But let me ask you, (seeing as I don't think I can take my questions any further as the answers that comes back are usually the same), Do you think that there is needed some form of direction, some form of intelligence, some form of 'knowing', just something that makes evolution 'tick'; something that makes it move the way it moves, something that makes random mutations, which are mostly bad, actually have a few that are good, and then be passes onto the next generation, etc.... What do you think?

 

[leibowde84]

Well then again if you're not implying it's a fact, a substantiated theory is still a glorified way to say guess in my opinion.

And yes I think that is where we differ I think there is more evidence for a theistic explanation.

How can you use theistic evidence to demonstrate that your theory is accurate (demonstrate your theory, in other words)? You are free to have your opinion, I would just ask that you back up your position.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Did Churchill "start a war?" Or did I misunderstand your comment?

It's my understanding that we gave an ultimatum to Germany and they did not respond so we were then at war with them. I don't think Hitler declared war on us did he?

 

[leibowde84]

Well, I suppose you know some of my thinking. But let me ask you, (seeing as I don't think I can take my questions any further as the answers that comes back are usually the same), Do you think that there is needed some form of direction, some form of intelligence, some form of 'knowing', just something that makes evolution 'tick'; something that makes it move the way it moves, something that makes random mutations, which are mostly bad, actually have a few that are good, and then be passes onto the next generation, etc.... What do you think?

The law of probability can explain this pretty well. Nothing is constant. Mutations, assuming there are trillions of them, are not going to all be negative.

 

[leibowde84]

It's my understanding that we gave an ultimatum to Germany and they did not respond so we were then at war with them. I don't think Hitler declared war on us did he?

Hitler declared war on the United States after we declared war on Japan directly after Pearl Harbor. We didn't have to declare war on Germany because Hitler, in fact, did preemptively declare war on us. Fyi.

 

[leibowde84]

It's my understanding that we gave an ultimatum to Germany and they did not respond so we were then at war with them. I don't think Hitler declared war on us did he?

Wait, are you from the US? Probably should've asked that first. haha.

 

[Robert.Evans]

A secular Christian is one who strongly feels that religious beliefs have no place in government, no matter how strongly those beliefs are held (even by the majority).

I do think that it is possible for evolution to stand on its own. Mutations occur naturally, we know this. Life has been around with these mutations for roughly 3.5 billion years. Most mutations will cause individual animals to die more quickly. But, once in a while, one will come along that is beneficial (like the one that made Polar Bears white, for example), and allows that animal to live longer and reproduce more. The only drive that is necessary is the will to survive and the will to reproduce.

Interesting ending.

So you're a Christian then?

So we still need some direction there, and you are saying it is reproduction and the will to survive. So that's kinda lucky, is it not, because without that will, nothing gets going.

 

[Ouroboros]

I agree, but that means that the theistic theory holds just as much weight if neither can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt

Sure. And I tend not to argue against theistic evolution. I do however argue against specific creationism where all species were created as is and some thousand years ago.

 

[Robert.Evans]

The law of probability can explain this pretty well. Nothing is constant. Mutations, assuming there are trillions of them, are not going to all be negative.

But the ''reproduction'' and ''survival'' and now ''probability'' are all part of directing evolution aren't they? Is that not like an artificial intelligence AI?

 

[Ouroboros]

What do you think?

Maybe, maybe not. I can honestly say that it's impossible to really know right now, so I'm very agnostic in that area. I don't hold it against someone who thinks there is.

Behe tried to prove this with irreducible complexity, but he hasn't succeeded yet.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Hitler declared war on the United States after we declared war on Japan directly after Pearl Harbor. We didn't have to declare war on Germany because Hitler, in fact, did preemptively declare war on us. Fyi.

Ahhh... okay. I think you are American and I am English. Perhaps I am thrown by your avatar...haha (or I don't know history which is aslo a good possiblilty)

 

[leibowde84]

But the ''reproduction'' and ''survival'' and now ''probability'' are all part of directing evolution aren't they? Is that not like an artificial intelligence AI?

No, silly, it is the basis of evolution. Species that do not have a will to survivie and procreate don't last long. This "will" is a chemical reaction in the brain, present in animals that have this instinct, not present in those that don't. It's like empathy with sociopaths. There are those whose brain did not develop correcty and are without empathy. Thus, they become sociopaths and are considered to be "incurable."

 

[Robert.Evans]

No, silly, it is the basis of evolution. Species that do not have a will to survivie and procreate don't last long. This "will" is a chemical reaction in the brain, present in animals that have this instinct, not present in those that don't. It's like empathy with sociopaths. There are those whose brain did not develop correcty and are without empathy. Thus, they become sociopaths and are considered to be "incurable."

....and they apparently run big companies.

But my point is that it stills acts like an artificial intelligence; it is part of what is needed. You don't agree?

 

[leibowde84]

Ahhh... okay. I think you are American and I am English. Perhaps I am thrown by your avatar...haha (or I don't know history which is aslo a good possiblilty)

My mistake. I just love Churchill (and England to tell you the truth ... but not as much as the USA!!!). In regards to England, you are still incorrect. Brittain did declare war on Germany, but Germany certainly "started the war," as it was already under way before Brittain "declared" it. Brittain joined the war officially, but Germany had already invaded Poland and had begun to invade France.

 

[bmk2416]

How can you use theistic evidence to demonstrate that your theory is accurate (demonstrate your theory, in other words)? You are free to have your opinion, I would just ask that you back up your position.

Sure, (this wont be all the evidence but it the general road map)

First, the universe had a beginning, it seems to me more likely that something created something out of nothing as opposed to nothing created something out of nothing,

In order for a universe with time space and matter to be created it has to have been created by something that transcends time space and matter

Second we have morals and higher consciousness which no other creature on the planet has,

Third the fine tuning of the Universe seems to suggest that we couldn't exist unless countless variables lined up in the exact way that they are now.

Fourth the complexity of DNA which in much the same right if it were off would change everything

Fifth Jesus existed and is still without a doubt the most influential figure in the history of the world

All this points to an all powerful, moral, personal God, and then on top of that and the personal truths from the Bible for which I can never convey evidence to you of

Again all are up for debate but none are facts provide beyond a reasonable doubt, to me the most logical conclusion is a God.