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Is Evolution really all there is????

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So God is not necessary, were you necessary? What is, is not always necessary. On the other hand, it might just be our limited views that allow us to make our judgment calls. Science is still working to understand everything just like we all are. What are you going to do when they discover God? I do think science will discover God before religion will. They are at least headed in the right direction.
Occam's razor. The process does not require an intentional intelligence magically manipulating things, so until either a need for this in the process or evidence of such a personage is discovered, the reasonable thing is to assume so such force is there.
If we start including unnecessary &/or non-evident factors in our explanations of things, even the simplest action would find us buried in a million possible factors. There is no end to the complexity of the Rube Goldbergs you could construct just to tip over a glass.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Evolution, in the most general sense, is nothing more than changes that occur over time. Biologically, it could be how modern humans evolved from smaller ape creatures to our current status. With something like technology, it could describe how early computers were very large and could to very little to our powerful microprocessors of today. Change may be the only constant, but there certainly is much more out there, like gravity.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's only "fit" in the evolutionary sense (and this applies to not being a couch potato, too) if it leaves offspring that can survive whatever selective pressures bear on the population--competition for resources, sex selection, parasite and disease burden, predation, etc.--and ensure survival of the genes in the gene pool. It's likely, as rich people control the resource of biological manipulation of the genetic code, that they will ensure that their traits are more likely to survive than those carried by the general, unmodified genes in the population.
But rich people have fewer children than poor people...
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
But rich people have fewer children than poor people...
But they can control which genes get passed into the future generations...will they use their own genes and modify them to make "better" future persons, or will they use just anyone's genes and modify them? It's expensive and difficult to engage in genetic manipulation, at least so far--if it proves to be successful to engage in genetic manipulation, the selection will be based not on traditional evolutionary factors (predation, disease, sex selection, etc.) but on human decisions on how to make humans "better adapted" to civilization, not on the random recombination of genes in the gene pool.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Who knows what those rascally hominins will do in future? If they override natural selection and start designing themselves, anything might happen. They've already removed themselves several steps from the usual evolutionary feedback loops. They're breeding like an infectious organism, and seem on the verge of killing off both themselves and their host.
A decidedly unfit species, IMHO.
 

NewGuyOnTheBlock

Cult Survivor/Fundamentalist Pentecostal Apostate
Evolution fits well into choice 2 unfolding. Some say everything is evolution and that the universe is nothing but evolution. Is that really true?

It is difficult to grasp what you are trying to say; as has been pointed out to you the Theory of Evolution is a law of biology and has nothing to do with the cosmos. Everything "evolves"; as in"changes"; but not everything that "changes" that can be crammed into the dictionary definition of "evolve" or "evolution" fits into the "Theory of Evolution". We're talking 2 different languages; if that make sense.

I'm sure in the early days, survival of the fittest played an important role in the development of people and animals. This leads to the question: Is evolution really all there is? After all with mankind's humanity, the fittest are not the only ones surviving today.

What do you mean, "all there is?" I don't understand what you are trying to say.

"Survival of the Fittest" is a bastardization of Darwin's theories, made popular by Herbert Spencer; and the phrase was first used by him. When Darwin used the phrase later, he meant it as 'that which is most fit for its environment". So if a "less powerful" species coexists with a more powerful species in an environment that is detrimental to the more powerful species, odds are that the more powerful species will succumb to that environment and the less powerful species will continue on.

You are confabulating a lot of stuff; please separate Theory of Evolution from Cosmology from Social Darwinism. Understanding those three things will go a long way in expanding your horizons and understanding.

As we look around us we see there is a process of unfolding going on. People are created from a few cells to grow into a person. Animals go through this same process. Plants and trees unfold from tiny seeds into massive complex structures.

This is not Evolution. This is the biological process of growth. I also want to point out that there is no rule, law, expectation or principle in ToE that stipulates a population must become "more complex" or "more" ... anything.

I think that science has allowed us to peer into the amazing processes involved in life. And the deeper science peers, the less likely it becomes that such amazing design simply sprang undirected into being, and undirected, produced the staggering and awe inspiring life forms that fill the earth. As Michael Behe opined about recent discoveries of the human cell, what is being discovered “is a loud, clear, piercing cry of ‘design!’” So life was not "poofed" into existence, IMO, nor is there any convincing evidence that life evolved. Rather, the evidence clearly proves to me a grand Creator, with unimaginable power and unfathomable intelligence, designed and constructed life in all it's forms.

Logical fallacy of agenticity. There is no evidence of design or a designer. There is only evidence for ToE.

Here is a more logical choice for you.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Then God said, "Let the earth produce every sort of animal, each producing offspring of the same kind—livestock, small animals that scurry along the ground, and wild animals. Everything God created reproduces its same kind from its own seed.

So, spontaneous generation through an unprovable deity is "logical"?

SpockAmused.jpg


There is too much evidence all around us for random chance to create it all.

That's because you don't understand.

Perhaps genetic engineering when it advances enough will get evolution back on track.

Back on track to "what"? To insinuate "back on track" you insinuate that evolution has a "plan" or "goal" or "final outcome" in mind. As there is no path, track, plan, goal, expected outcome, etc, there is no "track" for Evolution to follow; except that biological organism will evolve.

Fittest doesn't mean strongest or healthiest. Survival of the fittest means more like survival of the populations with features enabling them able to bring the most offspring to breeding age. Evolution works on populations.

Humans are an oddity, as technological advances spread immediately through the population, allowing 'defective' individuals to thrive.

Well spoken; thank you.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
As we look around us we see there is a process of unfolding going on. People are created from a few cells to grow into a person. Animals go through this same process. Plants and trees unfold from tiny seeds into massive complex structures.



If you were God with limitless intelligence, how would you create it all? Choice 1. With a Poof, it's all here. Choice 2 With an automated, unfolding, expanding universe that grows into complex structures, systems, and life forms all coming from a single point.



Which choice is more intelligent? Poof leaves one wonder of the how and why while choice 2 has life forms in the expansion able to watch and study the processes.



Evolution fits well into choice 2 unfolding. Some say everything is evolution and that the universe is nothing but evolution. Is that really true?



I'm sure in the early days, survival of the fittest played an important role in the development of people and animals. This leads to the question: Is evolution really all there is? After all with mankind's humanity, the fittest are not the only ones surviving today. All those couch potatoes are making it too. There must be other factors involved.

What do you think????
Genesis describes a point of alteration.....manipulation
(Chapter Two)
that event is not evolution
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Logical fallacy of agenticity. There is no evidence of design or a designer. There is only evidence for ToE.

Molecular machines are evidence of design to me. So is DNA, and millions of living things that are obviously designed. Trying to hide the obvious truth that "Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God", is like trying to hide a mountain range by holding your hand in front of someone's face. (Hebrews 3:4)
Such concepts as "agenticity" are simply sophistry, IMO.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Molecular machines are evidence of design to me. So is DNA, and millions of living things that are obviously designed.
Not so obvious.
Why do natural phenomena following ordinary chemical or physical laws need magical "explanations?" The ordinary mechanisms of natural selection, &c, account for the "millions of living things" whose origins evidently baffle you.
Declaring 'Goddidit!' as an explanation for a process you evidently don't understand is a cop-out.
 

McBell

Unbound
Just can't make you Happy about anything here, can I? I'm sorry to shine any ray of light of possibilities into your eyes.

Let me make it easier for you. If you were God, how would you create the universe?

Now you might have to get out of that box of beliefs to do it. You can pretend if that helps. Let yourself go!! Free your mind. The rest will follow!
Your condescension, though comical, aside....
IF there is a god, I stick with the "theory" that the universe and everything in it is nothing more than a bowel movement from said god.
Flushed and forgotten billions of years ago.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
You assume the god intended to "create"...
Yeah, what if it's just like "God left the loaf of bread on the counter and a mold colony showed up"? :D

Everything God created reproduces its same kind from its own seed.
What about hybrids?

Wouldn't a slower, messier, more complex method be downright stupid?
God has all eternity. What's the rush? :p

When genetic engineering advances enough, mankind will get rid of those less fit.
The problem with eugenics is that it almost always becomes "I want more people like myself, adaptability be damned." There are plenty of "fit" people who would die within a week if lost in a forest or desert.

On the other hand, choosing a fit offspring to take care of us in our old ages might be the best choice.
Ah, the hopes of offspring to become slaves for no other reason than the parents couldn't deal with life themselves....

Perhaps genetic engineering when it advances enough will get evolution back on track. Every parent will be able to pick the very best in their kids.
Sorry, not a Nazi.

Get up and run 1 mile. When you get back, you will understand.
It is a matter of if I need to or not. I am not physically fit, but toss me a bee or a bear or an angry dog or whatever and I can amaze you, LOL.
If we're going to reference Genesis, shouldn't we consult the Tibetan book of the Dead, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, as well?
I like Native American and Chinese and Japanese myths. Egyptian ones are cool, too. :)
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not so obvious.
Why do natural phenomena following ordinary chemical or physical laws need magical "explanations?" The ordinary mechanisms of natural selection, &c, account for the "millions of living things" whose origins evidently baffle you.
Declaring 'Goddidit!' as an explanation for a process you evidently don't understand is a cop-out.

What you propose is "natural phenomena" that sprang into existence. How? Then are these "ordinary" chemical and physical laws. Laws require a Lawgiver, IMO. I find thoroughly unconvincing the theory that "natural selection" is responsible for DNA. Professor John Barrow said that belief in “the evolution of life and mind” hits “dead-ends at every stage. There are just so many ways in which life can fail to evolve in a complex and hostile environment that it would be sheer hubris to suppose that, simply given enough carbon and enough time, anything is possible.”
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
What you propose is "natural phenomena" that sprang into existence. How?
Really? Goddidit is a better explanation of how the universe came to be than admitting that we don't at this time know exactly it happened, but that we suspect that there is a natural cause? Goddidit is certainly more certain, and makes it easy to not ask questions or investigate too closely.

Then are these "ordinary" chemical and physical laws. Laws require a Lawgiver, IMO.
The fact we use the term "law" does not constrain the universe to having a universal Lawgiver. Likewise, we often say "creation" because the evolution of our language included the story of creation to explain the universe that we observe. However, existence DOES NOT imply anything, natural or supernatural, that is, a CREATOR...or, necessarily, a natural cause of the "laws."

Even if we accept that "Laws require a Lawgiver," there is no necessary connection between what that lawgiver actually is and the Biblical God you seem to be arguing for. For example, "Okay, God did it; that God set the rules in place and the universe in motion--and has not interacted with it ever again." That is, the Deistic God. Or, Brahma (or Vishnu, I've seen both versions and have no idea which if either are valid) started to dream, while floating on his lotus on the Milky Ocean. We have hundreds of existing variations on creation stories that are not rooted in science, but in ancient mythologies...which one should we choose? On what basis do we make that choice? Yours? Because you say so?:rolleyes:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Who needs more than the natural world filled with all of evolution's gifts?
I don't.
I could do without its curses though, eg, mosquitoes, poison ivy, botflies, lawyers.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What you propose is "natural phenomena" that sprang into existence. How? Then are these "ordinary" chemical and physical laws. Laws require a Lawgiver, IMO. I find thoroughly unconvincing the theory that "natural selection" is responsible for DNA. Professor John Barrow said that belief in “the evolution of life and mind” hits “dead-ends at every stage. There are just so many ways in which life can fail to evolve in a complex and hostile environment that it would be sheer hubris to suppose that, simply given enough carbon and enough time, anything is possible.”
How the universe sprang into being, how the "laws" governing it happened, is an active field of cosmology and physics. If you're really interested in the nature of reality I suggest you look into these disciplines. But be warned, the mathematics involved are complex and the physics bizarre.

As for laws, a natural law is not the same as a legislative ruling. Don't conflate the two. Natural laws describe the observed relationships and interactions of the stuff of the universe. No legislator required.

The unlikliness of life is a dead issue. Life happened, however many lifeless alternatives might exist.
The likelihood of any given rock lying at any particular spot on Earth is mind bogglingly unlikely. The very existence of that particular rock in that time and place is statistically nearly impossible. Everything we see has more possible alternatives than there atoms in the Universe.

Positing an invisible personage managing things is not the obvious and inevitable explanation of phenomena we don't understand, and, of course, it just shifts the question back a step to "who created God?"

Abiogenesis is a series of small, understandable steps no more mysterious than any other chemical reactions. DNA is a simple polymer. There's nothing chemically complex about it.

The history of science is a long series of discoveries of the mechanisms of previously mysterious phenomena attributed to magical intercession. Why should today's mysteries be any different?
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
Fittest doesn't mean strongest or healthiest. Survival of the fittest means more like survival of the populations with features enabling them able to bring the most offspring to breeding age. Evolution works on populations.

Humans are an oddity, as technological advances spread immediately through the population, allowing 'defective' individuals to thrive.

Yes, you are right. There are many many factors besides strongest and healthiest. On the other hand, someone said that if mankind was not so doing so well, survival necessities would change the dynamics making strongest and healthiest more important. Of course, intelligence levels would increase survivability.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Who needs more than the natural world filled with all of evolution's gifts?
I don't.
I could do without its curses though, eg, mosquitoes, poison ivy, botflies, lawyers.

Mosquitoes are part of that wonderfully balanced food chain. You are eating at the top of the food chain. Would it really hurt to give some back to the bottom of the food chain?

Lawyers might be a different story. I have to believe there exists some really Great lawyers doing wonderful things to make life better for all of us. Keep looking. They might be hard to find.
 
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