Is Evolution really all there is????

[Ingledsva]

Tell me the possibilities for wonderful events. I see those as having a Greater possibility. Knowledge will increase at a faster rate the more we discover. Perhaps together we can figure out how to stop the end of the world from taking place. How about directional boring a hole to vent the build up of pressure. We could vent the lava into the ocean, create more land then build little pink houses for the starving people in the world today.

There is always a way. Why be a Victim when one can always Create???

I can not for-the-life-of-me understand why you keep bringing up these asides.

We know how this works, and you can go to any science site and read about it.

And no earthling is going to stop the total destruction of Earth, because that will be caused by our dying Sun.

*

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

regardless of how long it took, the techniques, the process- there was one utterly essential ingredient for the watch to ever exist: creative intelligence- the desire, purpose to make it happen.

Why? Why must it be so that in order for something to exist someone or something wanted it to exist? Please explain to me why this is a necessity.

If I were forced to try to account for the watch without it?

But we can account for the creation of a watch; by intelligent hands; to meet a need and to perform a specific purpose. But watches are not biological organisms. Bad analogy because we are comparing apples to rocks.

I might first propose that the watch simply always existed, no creation and therefore no creator (static, eternal, steady state universe models)

But that proposition, of course, would be wrong. That proposition does not answer how the watch came into being. That proposition (along with the "steady state" model) defies the natural order of things; that all things have a beginning and an end.

Once we dated the watch to a specific creation event, I might be forced to shift to a cyclical system whereby the watch re-creates itself (Big Crunch)

Except that we have no observation of an inanimate object creating itself. Self-replication requires some degree of life. Watches have no life. Apples to rocks. Analogy fails.

once this too was debunked, I'd probably be forced to conclude an infinite probability machine that can create anything and everything spontaneously

But that conclusion would be wrong. It would be wrong because the first two "propositions" were also wrong; thus we are coming to this ridiculous conclusions based on false pretenses and failure of logic.

(except a watchmaker of course- this infinite probability machine must have a safety mechanism to prevent this ever happening)

But that conclusion would be wrong. It would be wrong because the first two "propositions" were also wrong; thus we are coming to this ridiculous conclusions based on false pretenses and failure of logic.

Watches are not biological organisms. Your entire argument is bogus.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Then, as with everything in this world, we find that the Challenges lead to adaptation and growth in everything physical and in who a person is to become. Hmmmm? Whoever thought up such a system totally based on one concept has got to have High Intelligence especially since the world works so very well. What do you think?

You simply do not understand. Challenges do not led to "adaption"; there is no "force" or "intelligence" at work that says, "Oh, the weather's changing, need to create more (or less) fur, so we'd better alter the genetic code". It doesn't work like that. Get a pack of dogs of mixed breeds; small to large, short haired to long haired; and those canines which are most fit for their environment will naturally survive (passing down their genetic makeup to successive generations) and those which are not fit for their environment will die. It's really that simple. You insert an intelligent, creative force where there is no real evidence of such an intelligent, creative force. And you say "works out so well"; well, that's entirely a matter of perspective. There are an estimated 5 billion extinct species which would surely disagree with you that the world "works so very well".

Selection of a superior design goes entirely without saying, it's why the Ford Mustang outlived the Pinto. It's how automobiles evolved from scratch in fact. No argument there!

How you attain each significantly superior design in the first place, to then be selected.. is the far more relevant part, and usually skipped over by evolutionists. Perhaps because it relies 100% on complete utter fluke- a random mutation spontaneously creating significant design advantages.. millions of times over till a single cell becomes human. it's a little problematic to say the least, and the reason most people are skeptical of the theory.

"Superior design" is again a matter of perspective. Place mankind in an environment with insufficient oxygen in the atmosphere; and all of a sudden, our design isn't that "superior", now is it? Put a human in a cage of hungry lions and all of that illusion of "superior design" goes away quite quickly, don't you think?

And there is that "most people" argument from popularity crap; that, if refuted, leads to "academic elitism" conspiracy theory.

Hopefully... if it is not, as has often been the case, held back by atheist ideology, ever seeking to close the case on the simplest most superficial 'God refuting' theory at hand.

Darwin was a Christian.

 

[Bird123]

You simply do not understand. Challenges do not led to "adaption"; there is no "force" or "intelligence" at work that says, "Oh, the weather's changing, need to create more (or less) fur, so we'd better alter the genetic code". It doesn't work like that. Get a pack of dogs of mixed breeds; small to large, short haired to long haired; and those canines which are most fit for their environment will naturally survive (passing down their genetic makeup to successive generations) and those which are not fit for their environment will die. It's really that simple. You insert an intelligent, creative force where there is no real evidence of such an intelligent, creative force. And you say "works out so well"; well, that's entirely a matter of perspective. There are an estimated 5 billion extinct species which would surely disagree with you that the world "works so very well".



"Superior design" is again a matter of perspective. Place mankind in an environment with insufficient oxygen in the atmosphere; and all of a sudden, our design isn't that "superior", now is it? Put a human in a cage of hungry lions and all of that illusion of "superior design" goes away quite quickly, don't you think?

And there is that "most people" argument from popularity crap; that, if refuted, leads to "academic elitism" conspiracy theory.



Darwin was a Christian.

Challenges do lead to adaption. As we speak, plants and animals are adapting to environmental changes such as air pollution and acid rain. It's all about challenges because without challenges the need for change would not exist.

All those dogs will make it. Do you think we are giving up on man's best friend? My dog would not last a week on his own, Worry not. I'll buy the dog food.

As for oxygen, there are ways of getting oxygen. Isn't chemistry grand. Do you know what is for supper? It's those lions. Mankind's intelligence wins. He has an automatic weapon. Hmmm? How do you like your Lion cooked?

In the big scheme of things, there are reasons for extinction. Do you know why all those buffalo had to die? Sure they killed the buffalo to starve the Indians but there is another side. How can you have a modern society with billions of buffalo roaming around? What about my interstate highway?

There was a time when lots of extra species were on Earth for the simple matter that it did not change things. Life is about change. The stage will always be set for the next Show.

 

[Bird123]

I can not for-the-life-of-me understand why you keep bringing up these asides.

We know how this works, and you can go to any science site and read about it.

And no earthling is going to stop the total destruction of Earth, because that will be caused by our dying Sun.

*

We do have some time before that happens. I'm looking at Terra forming another planet or one might be able to reseed the sun and keep it going. Ah yes, those wonderful challenges. It will force us all to get smarter.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Challenges do lead to adaption. As we speak, plants and animals are adapting to environmental changes such as air pollution and acid rain. It's all about challenges because without challenges the need for change would not exist.

That's my point; the idea that "adaption" or "genetic mutations" occur because there is a "need" for change. Adaption and evolution happen simply because that's the natural order of things; they don't happen because there's a need to be met or a challenge to be overcome. You imply consciousness and creative intent where there is none.

 

[Bird123]

That's my point; the idea that "adaption" or "genetic mutations" occur because there is a "need" for change. Adaption and evolution happen simply because that's the natural order of things; they don't happen because there's a need to be met or a challenge to be overcome. You imply consciousness and creative intent where there is none.

None that you can see. I understand.

 

[serp777]

As we look around us we see there is a process of unfolding going on. People are created from a few cells to grow into a person. Animals go through this same process. Plants and trees unfold from tiny seeds into massive complex structures.



If you were God with limitless intelligence, how would you create it all? Choice 1. With a Poof, it's all here. Choice 2 With an automated, unfolding, expanding universe that grows into complex structures, systems, and life forms all coming from a single point.



Which choice is more intelligent? Poof leaves one wonder of the how and why while choice 2 has life forms in the expansion able to watch and study the processes.



Evolution fits well into choice 2 unfolding. Some say everything is evolution and that the universe is nothing but evolution. Is that really true?



I'm sure in the early days, survival of the fittest played an important role in the development of people and animals. This leads to the question: Is evolution really all there is? After all with mankind's humanity, the fittest are not the only ones surviving today. All those couch potatoes are making it too. There must be other factors involved.

What do you think????

I'd do it with both. I'd give proof and have a complex, unfolding universe. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. People should be able to know, unambiguously, if God exists or not.

 

[Bird123]

I'd do it with both. I'd give proof and have a complex, unfolding universe. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. People should be able to know, unambiguously, if God exists or not.

Perhaps there is a way to discover unambiguously God exists. God does not just give knowledge away. Mankind has worked hard through science and discovery. Look what all has been discovered.

Perhaps, it's all a test of intelligence. Who can discover? Since mankind and religion are failing in the discovery of God department, following and accepting probably is the wrong choice.

 

[serp777]

Perhaps there is a way to discover unambiguously God exists. God does not just give knowledge away. Mankind has worked hard through science and discovery. Look what all has been discovered.

Perhaps, it's all a test of intelligence. Who can discover? Since mankind and religion are failing in the discovery of God department, following and accepting probably is the wrong choice.

Why wouldn't God give knowledge away? If he cares about people believing in him he should make the knowledge accessible to those who aren't as intelligent. Basically you're saying that God discriminates against dumb people.

 

[Shad]

Selection of a superior design goes entirely without saying, it's why the Ford Mustang outlived the Pinto. It's how automobiles evolved from scratch in fact. No argument there!

You comparison is flawed. The Pinto was a niche design for a purpose. When it no longer had any appeal due to economic issues the line was cut. When consumers no longer had an interest in it the model was cancelled. Since you are comparing cars to animals this would be akin to saying animals which are consumed by predators far less than others animals will become extinct. Animals which are not consumed by any predator will become instinct. Yet with the bullfrogs in Australia we see an animal with no natural predator in the area not only thriving but threatens other species it consumes with extinction. The animals which the bullfrog, consumer, favors at a food source are in danger. Yet according to your think these species should be not be in danger but thrives due to being consumers at a greater rate than normal. The bullfrog should actually be extinct.

How you attain each significantly superior design in the first place, to then be selected.. is the far more relevant part, and usually skipped over by evolutionists. Perhaps because it relies 100% on complete utter fluke- a random mutation spontaneously creating significant design advantages.. millions of times over till a single cell becomes human. it's a little problematic to say the least, and the reason most people are skeptical of the theory.

It is also skipped over by you when you compare consumer products to animal yet forget what a consumer product actually is.

 

[Bird123]

Why wouldn't God give knowledge away? If he cares about people believing in him he should make the knowledge accessible to those who aren't as intelligent. Basically you're saying that God discriminates against dumb people.

Why should God care whether a person believes in Him or not?? If life is about the kids,why would God make it about Himself??

Look back throughout history. Intelligence dominates. Brains wins! Perhaps this is not discrimination, it is rewarding those who take the effort and the struggle to discover and become more than they are. Even dumb people know that knowledge advances one in so many ways.

Finally, there is wisdom. A person can be just given knowledge, but that does not bring wisdom. Perhaps wisdom is acquired in the struggle to attain knowledge. I know every time I work on my own car, I get better at it. How many could fix that car even though you told them how? Those that have walked the path fixing as they go could.

 

[serp777]

Why should God care whether a person believes in Him or not?? If life is about the kids,why would God make it about Himself??

Look back throughout history. Intelligence dominates. Brains wins! Perhaps this is not discrimination, it is rewarding those who take the effort and the struggle to discover and become more than they are. Even dumb people know that knowledge advances one in so many ways.

Finally, there is wisdom. A person can be just given knowledge, but that does not bring wisdom. Perhaps wisdom is acquired in the struggle to attain knowledge. I know every time I work on my own car, I get better at it. How many could fix that car even though you told them how? Those that have walked the path fixing as they go could.

It was a hypothetical saying if God cared about belief in him. Fixing a car and believing in GOd are entirely different things. I can believe that a car can be fixed without knowing how to fix it. Its a bad example because one thing is simple belief, and one is a complex series of steps that depend on pre existing knowledge.

 

[Bird123]

It was a hypothetical saying if God cared about belief in him. Fixing a car and believing in GOd are entirely different things. I can believe that a car can be fixed without knowing how to fix it. Its a bad example because one thing is simple belief, and one is a complex series of steps that depend on pre existing knowledge.

As I see it, it is all the same thing. Most discoveries start with a belief of the possibility of something. The next step is working at the discovery of the facts. Conclusion: you end up with facts and the belief is no longer important.

The accumulation of facts brings real advancement. Mankind has come a long way accumulating knowledge. On the other hand, that knowledge must constantly be questioned because the only way to really advance is have the true facts. Anything else wanders one away from knowledge.

Should not this be the way with everything including God? Can one really be content with beliefs without moving forward to discover the truth?? It's not in me.

 

[serp777]

As I see it, it is all the same thing. Most discoveries start with a belief of the possibility of something. The next step is working at the discovery of the facts. Conclusion: you end up with facts and the belief is no longer important.

The accumulation of facts brings real advancement. Mankind has come a long way accumulating knowledge. On the other hand, that knowledge must constantly be questioned because the only way to really advance is have the true facts. Anything else wanders one away from knowledge.

Should not this be the way with everything including God? Can one really be content with beliefs without moving forward to discover the truth?? It's not in me.

What facts are you even talking about? There are no facts that prove the existence of God. Most of the time its a feeling or vision for people or that they were brought up to believe. Either way, a peasant in the 12th century could never fix a car, be he or she could easily believe in God. They aren't the same thing. Believing in something doesn't necesserily require facts or the advancement of knowledge. Also what do you mean belief is no longer important? You believe your facts are in fact facts right?

 

[Bird123]

What facts are you even talking about? There are no facts that prove the existence of God. Most of the time its a feeling or vision for people or that they were brought up to believe. Either way, a peasant in the 12th century could never fix a car, be he or she could easily believe in God. They aren't the same thing. Believing in something doesn't necesserily require facts or the advancement of knowledge. Also what do you mean belief is no longer important? You believe your facts are in fact facts right?

With education, that peasant could fix a car. Everyone is capable of a belief. Without beliefs, we would lock up like my old computer when all the facts were not known.

How was a car invented? It started with a belief that it was possible followed by lots of work to discover the facts. Look at the reward.

People limit themselves with assumptions. Your assumption; There are no facts that prove the existence of God.

When one limits themselves with beliefs, one places a wall between them and true discovery.

Logical deduction: If God exists, then God can be found.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

How was a car invented? It started with a belief that it was possible followed by lots of work to discover the facts.

That "belief" arose out of facts and knowledge about motors that was previously unknown. This does not, in any way, equate to belief in supernatural beings.

Your assumption; There are no facts that prove the existence of God.

This is not an assumption. No facts support the existence of any deity.

Logical deduction: If God exists, then God can be found.

Then where is the "god"? People have been looking for him (and his "supporting facts") for 30,000 years or more. He hasn't shown up yet!

 

[Bird123]

That "belief" arose out of facts and knowledge about motors that was previously unknown. This does not, in any way, equate to belief in supernatural beings.



This is not an assumption. No facts support the existence of any deity.



Then where is the "god"? People have been looking for him (and his "supporting facts") for 30,000 years or more. He hasn't shown up yet!

You said belief rose out of facts about motors that was previously unknown. If it was unknown, how could it be a fact?? You do not make sense.

Have people really been looking for God for 30,000 years?? I find very few people who want to find God.

Next, as we look at this world we see that knowledge is never given. One must work at discovering it. We know that matter contains an almost unlimited amount of energy. If mankind could covert it into say electricity, mankind could dump the polluting fossil fuels. There is a way to do this cleanly. Look at the sun. Funny thing, just like God, the conversion factors just have not shown up. There is no proof it can not be done so that leaves us with a choice. Do we continue the struggle for discovery or do we give up because it is so much work?

Since, God doesn't just show up and say here I am, I think it is fair to assume God does not care whether anyone believes in Him or not. With this, it is safe to assume religion does not know God at all when they say believing in God is everything. If religion is wrong on that, what else are they wrong on? Indeed, one needs to question. With this in mind, if we base God on what religion describes, we don't have a clue about God. If we don't have a clue about God, can one ever hope to find Him?? Deductive reasoning???

 

[Trichakra]

I believe in God, evolution, evolutionary-creationism, nature spirits, etc..

I believe in God too. Peoples can't prove God doesn't exist.

 

[Sapiens]

"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" Theodosius Dobzhansky