Is faith a choice?

[Link]

I don't know about that, either.

If you put an onion on my tongue, I'm going to be repelled. I didn't choose my dislike of onions, I was made that way.

God is hard to accept because of hell, I get it. But first the heart is afraid, but when it's get's familiar with the being and gets to know it, it will see it's beauty.

I had a hard time accepting God due to hell for a period of my life as well.

Giving God a chance and to become familiar with the truth, this is all a choice.

 

[Twilight Hue]

That's problematic, at very best. I really think we at RF should be beyond showing such things. They're not edifying -- at least in my view.

Faith has many faces and that is one of them.

 

[SalixIncendium]

We can choose to search the truth regardless if our environment made it easy or not. I understand some people are poor and don't have time to search and are almost into economic slavery, these people, are to be forgiven.

Yes, different circumstances make it easier or harder to seek the truth, but at the end, what I described in the OP are all choices.

How did we get from "we choose our experience and how we contemplate is a choice" to "we can choose to search for the truth?"

What "truth?"

 

[JustGeorge]

God is hard to accept because of hell, I get it. But first the heart is afraid, but when it's get's familiar with the being and gets to know it, it will see it's beauty.

I had a hard time accepting God due to hell for a period of my life as well.

Giving God a chance and to become familiar with the truth, this is all a choice.

Couldn't the same be said of the idea of 'non God'(sorry, clumsy phrasing)? Or any other religious path?

 

[Link]

How did we get from "we choose our experience and how we contemplate is a choice" to "the truth?"

What "truth?"

From the paradigm that proofs for the truth exist. It's the attitude we take towards it and other factors I described in the OP, that will lead us to see the proofs or not.

 

[Link]

Couldn't the same be said of the idea of 'non God'(sorry, clumsy phrasing)? Or any other religious path?

Yes, it can be said. Whatever the truth is, factors factor in and it's not an on or off switch.

 

[SalixIncendium]

From the paradigm that proofs for the truth exist. It's the attitude we take towards it and other factors I described in the OP, that will lead us to see the proofs or not.

Oh, so you created this thread to preach "the truth."

Your truth isn't everyone's truth. I thought you'd have realized that by now in your tenure here.

 

[Link]

Oh, so you created this thread to preach "the truth."

Your truth isn't everyone's truth. I thought you'd have realized that by now in your tenure here.

Understanding the paradigm I see faith as a choice is useful. Because people don't realize all these factors come in from my paradigm. They think it's just "assess evidence"- and boom - one will believe if it's proven or disbelieve if not. I'm describing why I believe there's more to it and there is bunch of factors that come in.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Understanding the paradigm I see faith as a choice is useful. Because people don't realize all these factors come in from my paradigm. They think it's just "assess evidence"- and boom - one will believe if it's proven or disbelieve if not. I'm describing why I believe there's more to it and there is bunch of factors that come in.

IF you are claiming that faith is a choice, then I propose this challenge to you: make the choice to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and also part of the Godhead, and that believing that is necessary for salvation -- that is, a chance at "the next world." After all, God apparently made all of this very clear long before Mohammed heard a different story, and it is unthinkable that God would invent such a lie to fool people to believe in Christianity -- the largest faith on earth.

And one you have made that choice, believing it should not be a problem, or so you seem to be saying.

 

[Link]

IF you are claiming that faith is a choice, then I propose this challenge to you: make the choice to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and also part of the Godhead, and that believing that is necessary for salvation -- that is, a chance at "the next world." After all, God apparently made all of this very clear long before Mohammed heard a different story, and it is unthinkable that God would invent such a lie to fool people to believe in Christianity -- the largest faith on earth.

And one you have made that choice, believing it should not be a problem, or so you seem to be saying.

You don't seem to understand the OP. I'm saying it's not a choice like that, but a multi-factors of choices leads to be able to see the truth and accept it or blind oneself to the truth and reject it.

So the choice is not on and off switch. Your reply is the reason I made the op, a lot of people think faith is like that, but it's not.

Rather different factors are like a tug war, and make it easier to believe or reject. Sins make it easier to reject truth and caprice can easily blind one to the truth especially if one becomes attracted to a transgressor.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You don't seem to understand the OP. I'm saying it's not a choice like that, but a multi-factors of choices leads to be able to see the truth and accept it or blind oneself to the truth and reject it.

And since there can only be one "truth" about any single matter, you are suggesting to us that only people that share your particular faith are able to observe those "multi-factors of choices," select the correct ones and interpret them correctly.

Big claim. Seems to me to require some evidence before anyone need accept it.

 

[Link]

And since there can only be one "truth" about any single matter, you are suggesting to us that only people that share your particular faith are able to observe those "multi-factors of choices," select the correct ones and interpret them correctly.

Big claim. Seems to me to require some evidence before anyone need accept it.

I'm trying to show why it's not a simple on and off switch from the paradigm that there is a religion with proofs of it being true.

 

[Madsaac]

Salam

Some people feel faith or lack of it is not a choice. I think it's not in a vacuum.

Do we want there to be a next world or do we want this life to be the only life?

An advantage in this being the only life, is that you don't worry for moral accountability for your actions.

An advantage in being a next world is that you do worry for moral accountability for your actions.

Did I just contradict myself? No. They are both advantages but for a different part of you respectively. For lower self or for higher self. For animal self or for spiritual reality part of you.

There is also other factors. Sometimes we want to sin, then don't want to be wrong, we want the act to be okay or even good, and as the only religion with proof condemns it, so we avoid to seek the proof for religion and instead create our own morals or choose a religion based on what we desire out of caprice.

There's more to it. To be convinced of philosophical proofs or spiritual truths, takes a bit of discipline. It takes silencing the mind from irrational thought and seeing the truth in a humble grounded way. Are we ready to be be humble?

Still, while faith is not on and off switch there are other factors. For example, we may love our family, our people, or a person we are attracted to and don't want it to be they are on falsehood or that they are evil and so we will deny reality as is, the true justice and balance and measurement of deeds, all so the people we love are not accounted in a negative way.

Reflection can be a headache. It can literally hurt the head. It's easier to just go with small talk, life goals, party, have fun, and not think about things involving justice. It's easier to not see the solution for world problems but ignore them. Easier to be apathetic then live a life striving for justice.

Still, more to it. Is that we choose to be truthful to ourselves or not. If we come across proofs and are dishonest about it to ourselves, then this a choice.

Lying to ourselves or being true to ourselves is a choice.

Being honest about what one knows or not, is a choice.

Running away from the higher road towards all "fun and games" is a choice.

Not regretting our evil actions and seeing it as good to deceive ourselves we are good is a choice too.

How important truth is for us is a choice.

All these factor in.

And if we know God exists, if we decide to want to be guided by his guidance or seek the world while just blindly following clergy class is a choice too.

If God revealed a book, how we read it, is a choice. Are we playful? Are we sincere? To we impose our opinion on it or seek to learn from it? Do we take seriously the plausibility of it or come towards it seeking faults without acknowledging our bias maybe the fault generator?

Do we see miss the forest for the trees when reading God's book?

This all factors in. Did we reflect over what would prove himself or his religion? This is a choice. To read the book with reflection or ignore it or not read at all except what some people quote here and there is all a choice.

Isn't your faith simply determined by what your parents or guardians believed in or what country or culture you were born into.....well 90% of the time?

 

[Koldo]

Salam

Some people feel faith or lack of it is not a choice. I think it's not in a vacuum.

Do we want there to be a next world or do we want this life to be the only life?

An advantage in this being the only life, is that you don't worry for moral accountability for your actions.

An advantage in being a next world is that you do worry for moral accountability for your actions.

What you really mean is not moral accountability though, but rather God's punishment, right?

Did I just contradict myself? No. They are both advantages but for a different part of you respectively. For lower self or for higher self. For animal self or for spiritual reality part of you.

There is also other factors. Sometimes we want to sin, then don't want to be wrong, we want the act to be okay or even good, and as the only religion with proof condemns it, so we avoid to seek the proof for religion and instead create our own morals or choose a religion based on what we desire out of caprice.

There's more to it. To be convinced of philosophical proofs or spiritual truths, takes a bit of discipline. It takes silencing the mind from irrational thought and seeing the truth in a humble grounded way. Are we ready to be be humble?

Still, while faith is not on and off switch there are other factors. For example, we may love our family, our people, or a person we are attracted to and don't want it to be they are on falsehood or that they are evil and so we will deny reality as is, the true justice and balance and measurement of deeds, all so the people we love are not accounted in a negative way.

Reflection can be a headache. It can literally hurt the head. It's easier to just go with small talk, life goals, party, have fun, and not think about things involving justice. It's easier to not see the solution for world problems but ignore them. Easier to be apathetic then live a life striving for justice.

Still, more to it. Is that we choose to be truthful to ourselves or not. If we come across proofs and are dishonest about it to ourselves, then this a choice.

Lying to ourselves or being true to ourselves is a choice.

Being honest about what one knows or not, is a choice.

Running away from the higher road towards all "fun and games" is a choice.

Not regretting our evil actions and seeing it as good to deceive ourselves we are good is a choice too.

How important truth is for us is a choice.

All these factor in.

And if we know God exists, if we decide to want to be guided by his guidance or seek the world while just blindly following clergy class is a choice too.

If God revealed a book, how we read it, is a choice. Are we playful? Are we sincere? To we impose our opinion on it or seek to learn from it? Do we take seriously the plausibility of it or come towards it seeking faults without acknowledging our bias maybe the fault generator?

Do we see miss the forest for the trees when reading God's book?

This all factors in. Did we reflect over what would prove himself or his religion? This is a choice. To read the book with reflection or ignore it or not read at all except what some people quote here and there is all a choice.

I agree with your general point that we can be heavily biased. The best way to deal with bias, as far as I know, is to try to see merit in the opposing view.

 

[LuisDantas]

Salam

Some people feel faith or lack of it is not a choice. I think it's not in a vacuum.

Do we want there to be a next world or do we want this life to be the only life?

An advantage in this being the only life, is that you don't worry for moral accountability for your actions.

An advantage in being a next world is that you do worry for moral accountability for your actions.

There are a few serious problems with the above.

First, the definitions of the terms. "Faith" has several meanings, but you seem to be using it with the specific meaning of "belief in the existence of a paradise and/or a hell after death".

By that perspective, what you call faith is not a choice; it is, instead, a form of emotional, mental and/or epistemological harm.

Beyond that, you are committing a common but serious mistake: you are taking for granted that those beliefs are useful or even necessary to sustain moral behavior and perhaps moral mentality as well.

The very opposite is true.

It is not very clear whether you consider those beliefs to be voluntary (they mostly are not, IMO). You talk about advantages, but we must not forget that there is no true choice of whether there will be an afterlife involved - let alone a reward/punishment oriented afterlife.

Did I just contradict myself? No. They are both advantages but for a different part of you respectively. For lower self or for higher self. For animal self or for spiritual reality part of you.

Don't assume that belief in Allah, Jannah ("paradise") and/or Jahannam ("hell") are indicators of spirituality. They are just beliefs - and not very refined nor very constructive from a religious perspective, at that.

There is also other factors. Sometimes we want to sin, then don't want to be wrong, we want the act to be okay or even good, and as the only religion with proof condemns it, so we avoid to seek the proof for religion and instead create our own morals or choose a religion based on what we desire out of caprice.

Sorry, those are just not functional understandings of the meaning of those words. If that is religion, then religion is an unworthy thing that serves only to misguide believers.

It is interesting that you talk about "wanting to sin". That is a bit odd to me. Apparently you use a conception of sin that is a consequence of unhealthy desires, as opposed to lack of wisdon and proper awareness of the consequences of our actions.

As for creating our own morals... that is indeed necessary. Each of us people must take responsibility for our own morals. If we do not, then we are being little more than taught animals.

Obedience is not religiosity.

 

[RestlessSoul]

How so? If one experiences the death of one's child, is that a choice? Does one choose for their child to die?

If one contemplates that experience, is this something that was premeditated before the child's death was imminent?

It's helpful to think about what another says before one responds.

We are powerless over most things that happen in our lives. But we are not powerless over how we respond. We have some choice there; when tragedy strikes, or when good fortune does, do we take the opportunity to learn and grow? I suggest it’s easier to do so, if we have even a little faith that the universe is in good hands, and that some mighty purpose underlies all things.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I think it's a choice if we seek to build on knowledge which requires proofs or conjecture. A lot people of follow conjecture.

Well, I don't believe in strong objective proof, as I so far have never come across it other than in the abstract sense for formal reasoning.

 

[McBell]

I think it's a choice if we seek to build on knowledge which requires proofs or conjecture. A lot people of follow conjecture.

How is anything "known" about God anything other than conjecture?

 

[SalixIncendium]

We are powerless over most things that happen in our lives. But we are not powerless over how we respond. We have some choice there; when tragedy strikes, or when good fortune does, do we take the opportunity to learn and grow?

Certainly. My response was to a the statement that what we choose to experience is a choice. Often this is not the case, but one can, indeed, choose how one responds/reacts to an experience.

 

[stvdv]

I don't believe we get to choose our experiences

Many experiences we do choose
Today I experience "binge-eating"
Or drink lots of whiskey etc

If I get sick, I didn't choose that, either.

Tomorrow (or in 10 years)
I experience "get sick"
Again, we choose that too
By choosing "binge-eating"