Is Faith Evidence of Things Not Seen?

[ppp]

You didn't read my chapter did you?

No. People have to make their point on their own before I will take a reading assignment. Or I have to be curious.

People of different religions come to different conclusions, but everyone knows in themselves right and wrong.

That would be relative morality you are advocating. Where what is moral is merely a matter of personal whim.

 

[ppp]

It just shows that people are attacking people from trying to freely exercise their religions in the public square. Religions, like the freedom of the press, are supposed to breed competition, but some people want to shut them down.

I didn't ask that. I asked if you think that was appropriate behavior.

 

[ppp]

I guess you want the full description of a Manifestation of God? Okay,here is one description:

Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

And you think that these things exist because why?

 

[robocop (actually)]

I don't see that at all. Faith is not a "form of reasoning," in that it is acceptance without reason. To be "in harmony with science" seems to suggest that it should be able to do what science does -- that is, to provide results that can somehow be verified, and I have never seen the faith that could stand up to that test.

In fact, I think that if faith were a "form of reasoning," then it ought to be much easier to convince others of the the truth or value of that faith, but simply providing the reasons for it. To this day, and after much dialogue over decades, nobody has ever provided anything that appeared like "reason" for their faith to me. Maybe I'm just particularly dense, but I don't think so.

Why don't you try Alma 32 in the Book of Mormon, possibly starting in verse 17? The next step after faith is repentance, so if someone isn't willing to repent, why would they want to have faith?. No one wants to believe in a God that wants them to improve when they don't see themselves as being willing to improve.

The difference between faith and science is that science doesn't require living a certain way after; well, it does, but so does faith in the way that the faith entails.

Faith involves living the right way, and if you live the right way, you are giving it a fair trial. Reasoning doesn't work because the Universe is so complex that you just fail because you're unwilling.

That's how I see it. Maybe I am dense, but I feel the Holy Ghost right now!

 

[nPeace]

I can separate blind faith from the kind of faith that comes from deep reflection.

Blind superficial faith is the kind that children learn when they sing "because the Bible tells me so". They just accept something without thought. Blind faith to me is not "evidence of things not seen" - it's just swallowing something whole.

Deep reflection comes about when thinking and meditating deeply on spiritual questions. Some bring all their power of intuition and all their power of reasoning to a question. This can lead to accepting a divinity that someone has not seen based on all the external and internal evidence that they've examined.

At first, I thought the use of the word intuition might be out of place, until I looked at it below the surface. I hear you, and I 'm with you. That's deep.
Unless one can dive, I think they will miss this one.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I didn't ask that. I asked if you think that was appropriate behavior.

Yes. I think that it is appropriate behavior. This is exactly what is meant by free exercise of religion. Religions compete to keep everyone motivated to help each other.

I am not saying it's right to refuse the flowers. I am not saying it's wrong to refuse the flowers. I'm saying let the owner decide and see how there religion does.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you think that these things exist because why?

What things?

 

[ppp]

Yes. I think that it is appropriate behavior. This is exactly what is meant by free exercise of religion. Religions compete to keep everyone motivated to help each other.

I am not saying it's right to refuse the flowers. I am not saying it's wrong to refuse the flowers. I'm saying let the owner decide and see how there religion does.

So, it is just how the religion does that matters to you? Do the effects of actions on individuals have any meaning or moral weight to you?

 

[ppp]

What things?

Manifestations of God

 

[nPeace]

No. That's poetic gibberish.

Ask someone not familiar with the passage what "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." means and you'll get a blank stare.

Faith is unfounded belief -- period/full stop.

There goes my confidence in the hurricane and bomb shelters.

Spoiler

Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, or concept

May God help us.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So, it is just how the religion does that matters to you? Do the effects of actions on individuals have any meaning or moral weight to you?

As a matter of fact we have laws based on religion. Not to kill, not to steal, not to lie in court. So there are laws about morality that matter, and some of them come from particular religions!

And yes we can pass secular laws to help each other, but one of them shouldn't be to remove the free exercise of religion from the public square.

 

[ppp]

As a matter of fact we have laws based on religion. Not to kill, not to steal, not to lie in court. So there are laws about morality that matter, and some of them come from particular religions!

And yes we can pass secular laws to help each other, but one of them shouldn't be to remove the free exercise of religion from the public square.

Do the effects of actions on individuals have any meaning or moral weight to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Manifestations of God

I believe that they exist because they manifested themselves.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Do the effects of actions on individuals have any meaning or moral weight to you?

Yes!

 

[ppp]

Yes!

What makes protecting the ability of religions to compete more important to you than the impact of that competition on persons? You seem to value the institutions more than the individuals.

 

[robocop (actually)]

What makes protecting the ability of religions to compete more important to you than the impact of that competition on persons? You seem to value the institutions more than the individuals.

They are both important, but right now the ability of the institutions to exercise in the public square is in trouble. Think of it; religion is the primary motivator of doing right. If you are mature enough to do right without it, good for you, but there are many people who have become quite disagreeable of morality because they have been alienated or alienated themselves from religion.

 

[robocop (actually)]

What makes protecting the ability of religions to compete more important to you than the impact of that competition on persons? You seem to value the institutions more than the individuals.

All people should have their life, liberty, right of property, tranquility and free exercise of conscious protected.

 

[blü 2]

Well, you haven't solved Agrippa's Trilemma, epistemological solipsism or what reality is independent of the mind other than independent. So for knowledge you haven't yourself presented reasoning, that solves these problems.
So in effect, you believe in something, which is unknowable. So do I. I just admit it.

Agrippa's trilemma is addressed frankly by my three assumptions. Since you share those assumptions, we can talk. If we didn't, we couldn't.

Those three assumptions also demonstrate rather thoroughly that I'm not a solipsist.

 

[Left Coast]

But doesn't that validate what i just said.. no matter what one says, one can always counter with "that isn't enough proof" if one is of the opinion that "I don't believe in faith"?

No. Because at a certain point the evidence becomes so overwhelming that it becomes unreasonable to say otherwise (as with the earth being round). Not so with any supernatural claim.

Yet, that viewpoint doesn't invalided that "well, it could actually have been faith that did it".

Yes, of course it could have been faith; it also could have been aliens. But the time to believe something is when there's evidence for it, not merely when you can't prove it didn't happen.

I view it this way, like when we played basketball and someone made a three pointer.

We would throw it back to him and say "Just luck"

If he made it again, we roll it back to him where he had to move and say "Even a clock that doesn't work is right two times a day"

If he made it again, we knew that there was something behind the ball and say "you're good"

So when faith produces the evidence of those thing that were first unseen... well, we just begin to realize there is someone good behind it.

But that's exactly the evidence we don't have for faith. Faith works...sometimes. other times, it fails miserably. As I said, it's a crapshoot. So when someone throws a free throw, and half the time they make it and half the time they miss, what are we to conclude?

I don't agree. The promise of Israel being formed again is verified now. Never in all the history of human kind has a group of people that has been dispersed maintain their identity and language--they are absorbed into their new surrounding and adapt to their new culture.. Let alone come back 1900 years later and get their land back.

Most Jews globally havent maintained their language or culture, though. So just like every other people group on earth, a group of them have maintained the "old ways," and many of then have dispersed and integrated into the cultures where they live. The reestablishment of Israel as a recognized nation took place through completely human, natural means.

Great question. But as I mentioned before, there is mental assent which isn't faith. As with any situation, one must study "why".

An example:

Matt 13: 54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? 55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? 57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Jesus could of, but the people stopped his capacity because of their unbelief.

So your claim is that anyone whose prayer has ever not been answered wasn't answered because they didn't really have faith? Really? Is that really your answer? Because that's a basic No True Scotsman fallacy. You don't get to just count the Ws. You have to count the Ls as well. That's like sitting in front of a slot machine and only taking note of the times when it pays out, and thinking you have some kind of special, magic slot machine. What about all the times it didn't pay out?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Okay, but what else would you grant to this person that they might "see in this stone?" The future? Your future? (Hey, a crystal ball is just a stone, right?)

Crystal ball is a form of stone yes, used for divination. It's a tool for accessing other dimensions. But to be able to use those crystal balls one need psychic abilities of some sort. Spiritual practice can lead to those abilities.