• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is Faith Evidence of Things Not Seen?

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
However, science IMV, is a real substitute for religion for many people who have talked themselves out of "believing" and put their faith in science instead. It is argued as passionately as if their life depended on it. I can never quite understand why they need to do this. What does it matter if we believe the Bible rather than the musings of science.

Does it matter if we believe things that are true or not?

Surely all are free to believe as they wish?

I don't think that's really in question, no.

Is it really that important to pull the rug on believers when these ones have simply swapped one set of beliefs for another? Neither can be proven.

This is yet further equivocation. The fact that things in the world can't be "proven" as absolute fact doesn't mean therefore all beliefs are equally reasonable or aligned with the evidence. We should prefer a worldview that is able to accurately, testably map the world we experience, shouldn't we?

Please understand that I have no problem with substantiated, demonstrable science.....I love it, and what it opens up for us...the many wonders of creation. You see, "expert scientific opinion" is often swayed by theory, not fact. I can see that science has things that it can 'demonstrate' by experimentation such as adaptation....but to suggest that their theory of evolution goes beyond what they can prove, is not promoting scientific facts.....that is offering supposition masquerading as fact.

Incorrect. There are countless threads on this site alone where you could educate yourself on how evolution works and the ample evidence we have for it. Again, I think it's too large of a rabbit trail to go there in this thread.

I am somewhat amused that science had to give the word "theory" a new definition....if you look it up in a dictionary, it is very obvious what a theory is....a hypothesis...."a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation." As far as I can see, evolution has never stepped out of its 'hypothetical' status and on into proven fact. The truth is...there are no solid facts.

You are simply uninformed regarding the state of scientific evidence, as I said before. Regarding terminology, language changes - I actually don't know if your usage or the scientific usage is older, but it's irrelevant for the discussion here.

Is it? What if the evidence for the existence of an Intelligent Creator is very personal? It is not 'shown off' as something to make the nightly news, but quietly takes place out of the limelight.

But you could make that excuse about any zany belief. Well, no, I don't have evidence I can show you that I caught a fish 50 feet long who spoke Swahili to me...but I did! It was just a very personal experience, out of the limelight, no cameras around.

Would you accept that kind of reasoning from anyone of another religion arguing their deity is the true one and their religion is the correct one? I doubt it. So why should anyone accept it when it comes to yours?

Since the "evidence" that science presents is more about what they "believe" took place all those millions of years ago, I can see with my own eyes that we did not pop out of thin air, and neither did our universe, or our very unique home. Evidence for intelligent design is everywhere. It takes a special kind of 'blindness' to miss it IMO.

Your strawman description of "what science presents" demonstrates you really don't understand what you're arguing against. No one thinks you "popped out of thin air."

And that is the point......how do you know that it is inaccurate? Who do you believe?...and why do you believe them? Don't we all have to answer those questions?

I believe research scientists and public health professionals and organizations who have literally dedicated their careers to disseminating accurate, verifiable public health information. And the verifiable empirical research they have done to arrive at their conclusions.

How easily are our perceptions influenced?
Can we be collectively "conned"? If so....who is doing it?...and why?

Unfortunately, we can be quite easily conned, particularly if we haven't developed sound critical thinking skills and media and research literacy. I wish religious institutions taught more of that and less strawmen about people "popping out of thin air" and other such things.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Leftyji, we disagree about how the mind functions and its place in the scheme of experiencing spiritual things. I wonder if you aren't speaking more of the functions of the regular intellect tool (mediating and interpreting)? In either case, the "we" which you say cannot experience without an assist from mind is the "we" of ego, our false identity, the "I." It's the egoistic "I" which operates mind and intellect. Experiencing one's Self (Spirit or God or whatever one calls It) happens outside of and necessarily without the intervention or use of intellect, ego, mind and senses. Those tools won't work and must not be plugged in at all (meditation and/or chanting of mantra helps accomplish this). If someone really wants to obtain spiritual knowledge, he must set aside his usual knowledge-gathering tools and use the tools designed for that purpose, that is, his third eye and/or sacred heart.

This may just be a semantic difference in your tradition, I'm not sure. How does one determine if the information gathered via these alternate means is accurate?
 

Gargovic Malkav

Well-Known Member
Didn't some scientific experiments also reveal that "reality" changes when it's being observed and depending on how it is observed? Like the double slit experiment?
I don't have the right brain to understand and follow all this. But maybe someone who does could explain more about this subject..
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ah, NOW, my dear Trailblazer, you have my attention!
Yet I can pile evidence for no-God as high as the Andes, and ─ forgive me ─ I suspect it won't shift you.
What would be evidence for no God? You cannot prove God does not exist because you cannot prove a negative. All you can do is say "I don't believe God exists because" [fill in the blanks]. So for example you could say you do not believe in God because you see suffering in the world, but that assumes something not in evidence, that there would be no suffering in the world if God existed, but there is no way to know that, so that is just a personal opinion..
So what kind of evidence are we talking about?
Evidence that would disprove my religion, say finding out that the character of Baha'u'llah was not what I believe it was or finding out that He did not do what He claimed to do on His mission from God, stuff like that.
These kinds of questions sooner rather than later bring up the foundational question, how is 'truth' defined? You know I use the 'correspondence' definition ─ that truth is a quality of statements, and that a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality. I don't recall any believer here setting out a coherent definition of ─ hence test for ─ truth. So on what basis should we proceed, do you say?
Here are some statements about truth and reality that we can start with:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
If you think that then you do do not know what the steps of the scientific method are, let alone grasp them. Science and faith are antithetical. In science conclusions follow the evidence. In faith, you come to conclusions without evidence, or depending on your religion, in the face of contradictory evidence. Is science failsifiability is required. In faith, falsifiability is scorned. In science, absolute certainty is considered to be strutting arrogance. In faith, absolute certain is a matter of pride.

Faith is not only religion, it is also knowledge of the truth, as it is defined as absolute trust. Religion exist to keep life in tact. Faith in life is hope, and science is moot, only interferes with life, that is unless the dharma gives children, which would be a miracle, thus creating learning.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
and science is moot, only interferes with life,
Then quit using the products of science. Quit using all tools. Your computer. Your home. Money.Clothes Sticks. Agriculture. The alphabet. The wheel.

Go ahead. :smiley::tearsofjoy::laughing:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Does it matter if we believe things that are true or not?

From the perspective of unbelievers the answer is No....because they don't believe that they have anything to lose. But from the perspective of Christians, we have been given a commission....not to convert people, but to inform them of a situation that exists in this world that explains why humans are absolutely hopeless at successfully ruling themselves....and offering them a better alternative. The hearers can then evaluate the information and either act on it or ignore it.....its up to them.

I don't think that's really in question, no.

Freedom of religion is written into the constitutions of many nations.....it is a precious freedom, valued by the spiritually minded, but not valued at all by those without faith.

This is yet further equivocation. The fact that things in the world can't be "proven" as absolute fact doesn't mean therefore all beliefs are equally reasonable or aligned with the evidence. We should prefer a worldview that is able to accurately, testably map the world we experience, shouldn't we?

I would acknowledge those "accurate" "testable" pieces of "evidence" if they existed. I have been arguing with evolutionists for years and not once has anyone come up with convincing "proof" for what they claim. I have been given a wide range of suggestions...assertions....insinuations and lots of "could have's" and "might have's", but real science is not prefaced by such terminology.....it is the language of wishful thinking....and fudging of the "evidence" IMO.
The science buffs claim that science is not about "proof"....well, how convenient.
ashamed0003.gif


There are countless threads on this site alone where you could educate yourself on how evolution works and the ample evidence we have for it. Again, I think it's too large of a rabbit trail to go there in this thread.

I have read them and dismissed them all on the same grounds.....they did not 'educate' me one bit on "how evolution works" because there was nothing offered for which they could furnish proof.......the "evidence" itself is not ample, but the interpretation is......volumes of it......all assertions not facts. We have the same evidence as they do and come to a completely different conclusion because science is not our religion.

You are simply uninformed regarding the state of scientific evidence, as I said before. Regarding terminology, language changes - I actually don't know if your usage or the scientific usage is older, but it's irrelevant for the discussion here.

"Uninformed"...hmmmm where have I heard that before...? :rolleyes:
No matter...it is an old argument that never gets past testability. Science's claims for the interpretation of their evidence always turn up very short, but that is their problem. We can believe them or not....I choose not.

No one thinks you "popped out of thin air."

Again, this is an old argument. The number of times we Bible believers get accused of believing in some big wizard in the sky 'poofing' things into existence....and yet what do we find in science's explanation of how life on planet earth evolved and what it evolved from...? Turns out that abiogenesis is a taboo subject in evolutionary science because that branch of science itself suggests that life just 'poofed' itself in to existence for no apparent reason, and somehow morphed itself into every life form that exists on this planet......and that somehow this "life" came fully equipped with written information that makes sure that each lifeform stays the same. The whole "beneficial mutation" argument falls apart when you consider how many beneficial mutations can actually be named. We all know that a mutation is not something that is beneficial to 99.9% of any organism. How many 'accidents' do you know of that were beneficial?

I believe research scientists and public health professionals and organizations who have literally dedicated their careers to disseminating accurate, verifiable public health information. And the verifiable empirical research they have done to arrive at their conclusions.

I hope you understand who 'owns' the health system and who 'drives' the science institutions...?
They are paid well to keep to the status quo. No dissenters last long there. Whether their findings are "accurate and verifiable" is up for grabs in a world of egos and money....but hey, that is for us to decide whether to trust them or not.

Unfortunately, we can be quite easily conned, particularly if we haven't developed sound critical thinking skills and media and research literacy.

I think that the majority are conned, despite the fact that the intelligentsia believe that they can't be. "Sound critical thinking skills" can also be lost on those who have swallowed a very big lie.

I wish religious institutions taught more of that and less strawmen about people "popping out of thin air" and other such things.

I have to agree with you here, as I do not belong to one of those. There is no big magician in the sky waving a magic wand.....the Creator is just that....a careful and mindful Creator. He took a very long time to produce a habitable earth and I firmly believe that each environment was thoughtfully put in place before he created its tenants....including us. As I said, Intelligent Design is seen everywhere because creation is not a series of undirected flukes.....but you can believe that if you wish.....
ashamed0001.gif
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Depending on your favorite translation, Hebrews 11:1 reads:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Some religious folks believe that their faith itself is evidence that what they have faith in is actually true. This is particularly the case, it seems, when it comes to supernatural claims or ones that don't have good evidence for them.

In my view, this is a manifestly absurd and circular position. People believe all kinds of things, some true, some untrue. The fact that I believe, for example, that the world is flat, is not evidence that I'm correct about that.

Do you believe faith is the evidence of things not seen? Why or why not?

First of all, could you consider changing that picture?

I'm sorta oddly homophobic. That is, I'm fascinated by lesbian relationships, but two guys makes me throw up inside my mouth. Something about excess body hair vs two very soft bodies. I think I'm strongly gynosexual, so that just traumatized me.

Second of all, I think you misunderstand this. The author is not saying faith is blind hope. It's the substance of things hoped for (as in, a substance is something you can touch). That is, you have your hopes come true, you have your proof.

Faith =/= beliefs

Faith is about commitment. Faithfulness. It is abour remembering the good that God has done in our lives, even when we live in tough times. Remembering those times and how God got us through it.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
If faith is evidence of thought, and thoughts can't be seen, then faith would definitely be evidence of things not seen.

Yes, the hard problem of consciousness in a sense. How come we are not p-zombies and all that? I do think that is a derail, so we might not want to go there.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
What you are trying to do won't work. You are trying to claim that logic doesn't work for God in order to avoid the logical incoherence of your claims. If God is not subject to human logic, then there are no human sentences that can apply to it. Without human logic, no human sentence is true about anything at all. Not even "God is."

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-paraconsistent/

So if God operates in a paraconsistent logical manner, then you might be able to talk about. But personally I believe God to be unknowable.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
Then quit using the products of science. Quit using all tools. Your computer. Your home. Money.Clothes Sticks. Agriculture. The alphabet. The wheel.

Go ahead. :smiley::tearsofjoy::laughing:

That is unless I can believe in God without apprehension, and still find science planted the garden, the divine middle if you will.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
From the perspective of unbelievers the answer is No....because they don't believe that they have anything to lose.

How many unbelievers did you query to arrive at that answer? I've never met a single unbeliever who didn't care about believing things that are true. What we have to lose is our life, our ability to successfully navigate and understand the world.

Freedom of religion is written into the constitutions of many nations.....it is a precious freedom, valued by the spiritually minded, but not valued at all by those without faith.

Again, how many unbelievers did you ask about this? I care very much about freedom of religion.

I would acknowledge those "accurate" "testable" pieces of "evidence" if they existed. I have been arguing with evolutionists for years and not once has anyone come up with convincing "proof" for what they claim. I have been given a wide range of suggestions...assertions....insinuations and lots of "could have's" and "might have's", but real science is not prefaced by such terminology.....it is the language of wishful thinking....and fudging of the "evidence" IMO.

Really? How much formal science education do you have?

The science buffs claim that science is not about "proof"....well, how convenient.
ashamed0003.gif

It's not convenient, it's just definitional. :shrug: Science deals in evidence. Proof is for math and logic.

"Uninformed"...hmmmm where have I heard that before...? :rolleyes:

Do you hear that a lot? Why do you think that is?

No matter...it is an old argument that never gets past testability. Science's claims for the interpretation of their evidence always turn up very short, but that is their problem. We can believe them or not....I choose not.

So you have a problem with beliefs that are untestable, is that right?

Again, this is an old argument. The number of times we Bible believers get accused of believing in some big wizard in the sky 'poofing' things into existence....and yet what do we find in science's explanation of how life on planet earth evolved and what it evolved from...? Turns out that abiogenesis is a taboo subject in evolutionary science because that branch of science itself suggests that life just 'poofed' itself in to existence for no apparent reason,

No, it doesn't. This is a strawman. For someone who's supposedly read "all" the threads on evolution on this site, I'm baffled that your misunderstanding would be this basic.

and somehow morphed itself into every life form that exists on this planet......and that somehow this "life" came fully equipped with written information that makes sure that each lifeform stays the same. The whole "beneficial mutation" argument falls apart when you consider how many beneficial mutations can actually be named. We all know that a mutation is not something that is beneficial to 99.9% of any organism. How many 'accidents' do you know of that were beneficial?

Again, there are members here who thrive on evolution threads and would be eager to answer your questions/objections as they have done for creationist after creationist. I'm not one of them, though. :shrug:

I hope you understand who 'owns' the health system and who 'drives' the science institutions...?
They are paid well to keep to the status quo. No dissenters last long there. Whether their findings are "accurate and verifiable" is up for grabs in a world of egos and money....but hey, that is for us to decide whether to trust them or not.

I'm professionally part of the health system, so yes I have a decent idea how it works. We have no reason to lie about the efficacy of masks. If we're wrong, people die. People who are worth much more to us alive, if you think we're driven by pure greed. Our purpose is literally to save people's lives. That you want to dismiss us with a conspiracy theory is honestly rather insulting to the many, many people who dedicate their lives to public health.

I have to agree with you here, as I do not belong to one of those.

Then why do you keep repeating caricatures that don't represent what people actually believe? I wish you wouldn't.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Yeah, and as with Left Coast, it ends here:

Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

So the claim that the world is natural and not supernatural is as much only a very strongly held belief, just as the reverse one.

Faith is not belief. Belief is hope.
What is the difference between faith and hope? | GotQuestions.org

That is, if I believe that the rain and sun will be just right for growing crops, this is to say I have hope. It may not turn out right.

How, faith is more like knowing something in your heart, and being able to suffer for it.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
First of all, could you consider changing that picture?

No.

I'm sorta oddly homophobic. That is, I'm fascinated by lesbian relationships, but two guys makes me throw up inside my mouth. Something about excess body hair vs two very soft bodies. I think I'm strongly gynosexual, so that just traumatized me.

Yikes.
 
Top