Is Flouting the law a game?

[michel]

We have speed cameras here - I am sure you have them too. Ours are fixed, with markings in the road so that the speeds can be calculated.

For some strange reason (To me) , the Police are not allowed to put up cameras where they chose; a camera can only be installed after there have been deaths on the road itself.

When the camera is put up, it has to be painted bright yellow - to warn the motorists that they are going to have their speed monitored.

On the main road here, not a hundred yards up the road, there is a camera; the speed limit is 30 mph; cars approach the camera 'zone' at what must be 50 mph, brake to go through the speed test zone, and accelerate out of the end of the zone, back to 50mph.....

We have laws, the law says that it is illegal to break the speed limit.

What sort of morality are we living in?

 

[Fluffy]

We have speed cameras here - I am sure you have them too. Ours are fixed, with markings in the road so that the speeds can be calculated.

For some strange reason (To me) , the Police are not allowed to put up cameras where they chose; a camera can only be installed after there have been deaths on the road itself.

When the camera is put up, it has to be painted bright yellow - to warn the motorists that they are going to have their speed monitored.

On the main road here, not a hundred yards up the road, there is a camera; the speed limit is 30 mph; cars approach the camera 'zone' at what must be 50 mph, brake to go through the speed test zone, and accelerate out of the end of the zone, back to 50mph.....

We have laws, the law says that it is illegal to break the speed limit.

What sort of morality are we living in?

I agree Michel. I remember when many people were complaining about getting speeding fines from these cameras and blaming the police from just money grabbing. I could not understand why they did not merely follow the speed limit! I remember voicing such an opinion in class once and my teacher told me, perfectly nicely, that he didn't think I would get very far with that argument. Am I missing something here? Is there some perfectly logical reason why the police should not be allowed to enforce the speed limit as a law just like every other law??

 

[Ishkbal]

Oddly enough I haven't seen any of these starnge cameras. Anyway, why do people break the speed limit? I think it has to do with the fact that people can complain about the people who actually go the speed limit. However, police will even stop people for going the speed limit as they are "obstructing traffic". The only time you can get away with speeding is if everyone else on the road is going the same speed as you are.

Cheers,

Keenan

 

[michel]

I agree Michel. I remember when many people were complaining about getting speeding fines from these cameras and blaming the police from just money grabbing. I could not understand why they did not merely follow the speed limit! I remember voicing such an opinion in class once and my teacher told me, perfectly nicely, that he didn't think I would get very far with that argument. Am I missing something here? Is there some perfectly logical reason why the police should not be allowed to enforce the speed limit as a law just like every other law??

It's abit like the absurdity that the police cannot stop a car unless they can find a legitimate reason to do so (one light not working...etc). On the continent, in Europe, if a policeman feels like stopping you to ceck your licence, your insurance and tax, they stop you.

When you hear of the number of people driving uninsured, without a licence... well, it makes my blood boil.

I remember a case of a lad - under age for driving (and therefore obviously without licence) - who killed anothe boy through dangerous driving, whilst drunk - again, under age for drinking.

What did the law say ? - he is too young to drive, so we cannot charge him for driving uninsured, without a licence; he was too young to drink, so we cannot charge him for manslaughter whilst 'under the influence'. So we'll just tell him he's a naughty boy, and if he's not careful, he'll end up in prison if he re offends within the next two years, whilst he is on probation.
:149:
GIVE ME STRENGTH.....1.2.3.4.5.6........2756....15678...ah, that's better!

 

[Pah]

Germany had the cameras primarily for cars running red lights though there was one in an underpass for speeding. I don't have a "constitutional" problem with them because they are "in loco" police

 

[Melody]

It's abit like the absurdity that the police cannot stop a car unless they can find a legitimate reason to do so (one light not working...etc). On the continent, in Europe, if a policeman feels like stopping you to ceck your licence, your insurance and tax, they stop you.

Well, I am glad the police have to have a reason here in the U.S. Why should the police have the right to harass law abiding citizens on the offchance they'll catch someone who's driving without a license, insurance, etc.? Reminds me of the person who told me they thought search and seizure laws should be revoked because if you didn't have anything to hide, you have nothing to worry about. Egad.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Well, I am glad the police have to have a reason here in the U.S. Why should the police have the right to harass law abiding citizens on the offchance they'll catch someone who's driving without a license, insurance, etc.? Reminds me of the person who told me they thought search and seizure laws should be revoked because if you didn't have anything to hide, you have nothing to worry about. Egad.

They can just pull us over in Australia for a licence check, and the only people I've ever heard whine about being harrassed by the police are people who were doing the wrong thing anyway, or in the wrong place at the wrong time, like living with their cousin the car thief when his house got raided (or in the shower with a man who had lately been involved in a rather nasty murder when HIS house was raided); they weren't driving around in a car being picked on.
We have speed cameras all over the place here, and admitedly, some of them are in places where their obvious intent is revenue raising (places where the speed limit changes by 20km without notice, etc), but for the most part, if you're not speeding, then you wont get fined. The biggest uproar here has been that the 5km +/- allowance for speedo innacurracy has been removed, so if you're speedo says you're moving at the speed limit and it's out by 1km then a camera will take your photo and issue you with a fine.

 

[Fluffy]

It's abit like the absurdity that the police cannot stop a car unless they can find a legitimate reason to do so (one light not working...etc). On the continent, in Europe, if a policeman feels like stopping you to ceck your licence, your insurance and tax, they stop you.

Hehe Im afraid me and you disagree on this point michel. I get very nervous when giving too much power to the police or the government. If they can't find a legitimate reason to stop you then they shouldn't stop you. Driving without a licence, underage driving, underage drinking, drunk driving and manslaughter should have been the five offences underwhich this boy should have been tried and convicted and I think the law needs to be changed so that this is possible if the loophole which you have pointed out still exists.

Lady_Lazarus, you can now rescind your statement "the only people I've ever heard whine about being harrassed by the police are people who were doing the wrong thing anyway" because I am doing nothing wrong and I am whining about people being harrassed by the police. It is not worth it to upset the balance of power between people and government when that government has the potential to be corrupt.

 

[Quoth The Raven]

Hehe Im afraid me and you disagree on this point michel. I get very nervous when giving too much power to the police or the government. If they can't find a legitimate reason to stop you then they shouldn't stop you. Driving without a licence, underage driving, underage drinking, drunk driving and manslaughter should have been the five offences underwhich this boy should have been tried and convicted and I think the law needs to be changed so that this is possible if the loophole which you have pointed out still exists.

Lady_Lazarus, you can now rescind your statement "the only people I've ever heard whine about being harrassed by the police are people who were doing the wrong thing anyway" because I am doing nothing wrong and I am whining about people being harrassed by the police. It is not worth it to upset the balance of power between people and government when that government has the potential to be corrupt.

Unless you personally have been harrassed by the police for no good reason while driving along minding your own business and are complaining about your personal experience, then I don't have to rescind my statement at all. The only people I personally know who have ever whined about they, themselves, being harrassed by the police were in a legitimate position to be targeted...they weren't driving their cars being pulled over for a licence check by corrupt police.

 

[Fluffy]

Unless you personally have been harrassed by the police for no good reason while driving along minding your own business and are complaining about your personal experience, then I don't have to rescind my statement at all. The only people I personally know who have ever whined about they, themselves, being harrassed by the police were in a legitimate position to be targeted...they weren't driving their cars being pulled over for a licence check by corrupt police.

Okay fair enough but that is not what your original statement implied which infact stated that the only people who whined about the police (not their personal experiences) were ones who were breaking the law. I had thought you were implying that there were no people who had NOT been affected by unjust police harrassment yet still whined about the increasing powers of the police force such as myself. Thank you for clarifying .

 

[Melody]

and the only people I've ever heard whine about being harrassed by the police are people who were doing the wrong thing anyway, or in the wrong place at the wrong time,.

Well you've just met someone. I'm licensed, insured and I wear my seat belt out of choice...not for fear of having to pay a fine. I don't drink and drive. Oh wait...I don't drink.

I just feel it's way dangerous to give the police too much power. We have search and seizure laws in this country and they didn't come about because the police did *not* abuse their power. I see no reason to give them the opportunity to do so again.

 

[Melody]

Unless you personally have been harrassed by the police for no good reason while driving along minding your own business and are complaining about your personal experience, then I don't have to rescind my statement at all. The only people I personally know who have ever whined about they, themselves, being harrassed by the police were in a legitimate position to be targeted...they weren't driving their cars being pulled over for a licence check by corrupt police.

LL
I was pulled over for not wearing a seat belt, which was a $65 fine. I *always* wear my seltbelt. The cop tried to make out like I had put it on when I saw him but I took 15 witnesses to court with me as evidence that I not only buckle up automatically, but my car doesn't get started until every person in my car is buckled. Fortunately, the judge believed me. I've also been stopped for speeding when I wasn't. Again, I was lucky to have a witness in the car and a judge who believed me.

You are either very fortunate to live in a country where the police are uncorruptable, or lucky not to have been the victim of harassment.

 

[michel]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to lady_lazarus again.

I know I am an oddity; as far as I am concerned, the police are there for a purpose.
police http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=police c.1530, at first essentially the same word as policy (1); from M.Fr. police (1477), from L. politia "civil administration," from Gk. polis "city" (see policy (1)). Still used in Eng. for "civil administration" until mid-19c.; application to "administration of public order" (1716) is from Fr., and originally referred to France or other foreign nations. The first force so-named in Eng. was the Marine Police, set up 1798 to protect merchandise at the Port of London. The verb "to keep order by means of police" is from 1841; policeman is from 1829. Police state "state regulated by means of national police" first recorded 1865, with ref. to Austria.

The police (by the above definition) are there to ensure that the administration of public order is enforced.​

Like Lady L, I have always been of the opinion that I would rather be stopped and checked, for no reason, if it means that one juvenile, who is either drunk or drugged up to the eyeballs gets stopped as well - although he may be driving normally at the time.

There are far too many deaths on the roads. People interpret the 'drink drive' rule as they see fit. How many times have I heard the "Oh, I'm fine after a couple of beers!". Tests have shown that the established alcohol limit is there for a purpose; have a greater concentration of alcohol, and your reactions are impared.

As Lady L put it "There should be no reason whatever to fear the police, or to view their stopping you - if you are innocent- what is the problem ? -all of you who 'do not approve' ?
Wouldn't you prefer to see less deaths on the roads ?

The use of mobile phones is prohibitted while you are driving; by law, to answer your phone you must pull up somewhere, switch off the engine, and then answer - every day, countless motorista pay fines because they don't care.

​

 

[Melody]

I have always been of the opinion that I would rather be stopped and checked, for no reason, if it means that one juvenile, who is either drunk or drugged up to the eyeballs gets stopped as well - although he may be driving normally at the time.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety - Benjamin Franklin

 

[Fluffy]

Like Lady L, I have always been of the opinion that I would rather be stopped and checked, for no reason, if it means that one juvenile, who is either drunk or drugged up to the eyeballs gets stopped as well - although he may be driving normally at the time.

The thing about this attitude is it is neither realistic nor idealistic and is the only attitude I have come across on a regular basis that fits neither category.

You are being realistic enough to know that humanity needs something to control them but idealistic enough to think the people who exercise this control are immune to the very faults that cause them to be purposeful.

I can, on the otherhand, completely sympathise with this attitude because I often feel it myself. But then I keep reminding myself that if I lived in Germany just before power went to the Nazis then I at least would have experienced the horrors which that attitude does let in unless we are VERY careful. In the end power has to be in the hands of the people because you can't have an infinite chain of command nor a position immune to corruption.

 

[Lycan]

It is sad that because of the few corrupt, that all police officers are seen that way. I worked for a police dept for quite some time and was in the process of becoming one myself. Police officers for the most part are honest, average people trying to do their jobs without dying. I personally think cameras at intersections and on highways and such are a good idea. It's not some kind of "power play" or attempt at "harrassing law abiding citizens", it is to keep people that have no self control from killing the rest of us. IMHO police officers should be able to pull people over for random checks. Hey, why not? It would make me feel better that they are actually doing the job to protect me and my family.

 

[CaptainXeroid]

Wow, lots of things going on here!

First, except for school zones, IMHO, speed limits are set artificially low so the police can stop people for 'speeding' when they need to raise revenue or wish to conduct warrantless searches. If you don't believe me, just cruise the interstates of Hot'Lanta at the posted speed limit and realize that just about everybody is passing you with plenty to spare.

Second, to the thread title-for many, flouting the law is a game. I used to work for an insurance carrier, so I've seen my share of accident aftermath. I take extra care not to flout the law by running red lights and stop signs.

Third, lady_lazarus, you're taking quite a beating here, and I hate to pile on, but I have to take issue with this, '...The only people I personally know who have ever whined about they, themselves, being harrassed by the police were in a legitimate position to be targeted...' Dec 30, 2003, I was rear-ended by an 18-wheeler and knocked into the car in front of me. The police officer wrote me a ticket for following too closely even though I was completely stopped before the behemoth plowed into, then she lied about my statement in court to make sure the judge found me guilty.

I realize your statement refers to people you have 'personally know', but I guess it's nice that you have never been wrongly accused of anything or harassed by the police in anyway, or that statement would be a bit naive to the fact that there are police who abuse their positions and amuse themselves by going on a 'power trip'.

Now before anyone says it, I do realize that most cops are good, but police have long been known to protect their own even when they suspect a fellow cop might be 'bad'. Until I'm convinced they are changing this mindset, I support limits their powers.

 

[Melody]

Police officers for the most part are honest, average people trying to do their jobs without dying. I personally think cameras at intersections and on highways and such are a good idea. It's not some kind of "power play" or attempt at "harrassing law abiding citizens",

I agree....but we still need protection from the power hungry ones. I don't actually have a problem with the cameras at intersections and highways, nor do I look at them as power play or harassment. I have a problem with police stopping people without probable cause and it's not something I'd like to see happen here in the states.