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Is Free Will Incompatible with Neuroscience?

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I don't see how random quantum events could imply free will either. Even if quantum events affect our actions, we still don't have control over them, at least I can't see how we could. @Polymath257 is probably the most informed forum member when it comes to this stuff. I'm curious what his thoughts on free will/determinism are.

well, in some increasingly popular interpretations of QM, if our choices would be the result of quantum events, we would split the universe. The copy of us who chose X would live in a world consistent with that choice, while the copy of us who chose Y would live in another world consistent with that choice. And both universes would be in a superposition of states.

so, we would not actually choose only one course of actions. But all of them, making things even more interesting.

again, assuming our choices are reducible to coherent quantums states (huge if), and the Everett interpretation of QM is correct (vastly smaller if).

ciao

- viole
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The definition I've heard before for free will is the "ability to have acted differently." So, if it were possible to "rewind" the universe to the exact same physical state as it was at a previous time, would we have made the same decisions? If our decisions are purely determined by predictable physical processes (much like the behavior of stars and planets on a much more complex scale), then wouldn't our decisions turn out to be exactly the same if the physical composition of the universe was the same? I'm not a physics expert by any means, so I don't know. Sam Harris has used this argument to basically claim determinism as a scientific fact. I don't know if he's right or not, but the argument seems reasonable to me. But, I'm a physics ignoramus. So you'd know much better than I.


I'm not sure I like that definition, though. If we rewind and everything is physically the same, then so are you. Would you not expect to make the same decision if you are provided with the same background, same motivation, same outlook, same information, etc?

Or does 'free will' mean your decisions have no connection to who you are?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I agree, but if you're not aware of your choice, then how are you in control of it in any sense? To me, being in control of a choice requires awareness.

You can control your future choices. You can alter the way your subconscious mind reacts.

Yes, your subconscious mind reacts faster than you consciously can so often you react before you are consciously are aware of what is happening. What you can consciously do is analyze the result of your action and cause your subconscious mind to alter how it responds in the future.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I like that definition, though. If we rewind and everything is physically the same, then so are you. Would you not expect to make the same decision if you are provided with the same background, same motivation, same outlook, same information, etc?

Or does 'free will' mean your decisions have no connection to who you are?

Well I think people intuitively believe that they "could have" acted differently. But this would imply that their actions were not determined by the existing causal factors in the universe at the time. So I would expect to have made the same decision if everything, including me, was physically the same. But apparently this is a hard thing for some people to accept.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The definition I've heard before for free will is the "ability to have acted differently." So, if it were possible to "rewind" the universe to the exact same physical state as it was at a previous time, would we have made the same decisions? If our decisions are purely determined by predictable physical processes (much like the behavior of stars and planets on a much more complex scale), then wouldn't our decisions turn out to be exactly the same if the physical composition of the universe was the same? I'm not a physics expert by any means, so I don't know. Sam Harris has used this argument to basically claim determinism as a scientific fact. I don't know if he's right or not, but the argument seems reasonable to me. But, I'm a physics ignoramus. So you'd know much better than I.

if the physical information of the universe is conserved, as all current physical theories seem to entail, then any action I perform on the environment is bound to change the physical state of the Universe.

for instance, if I use the car instead of walking, the physical state of the atmosphere, or the road, or my car, will be different than it would be if I had chosen to walk.

But if the total information of the universe is constant, then the information of the new state, changed by me using the car, must have been contained implicitly in the state of the Universe eons before my existence, since the same initial state cannot allow two different future states. And vice-versa, the same state cannot come from two different past states.

ergo, I could not have possibly chosen differently, without violating fundamental laws of nature.

ciao

- viole
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
It seems to me that the concept of "free will" or the idea that we have control over actions is incompatible with a materialist understanding of neuroscience. We know that our neurophysiology is what determines our actions, and no one chooses her/his neurophysiology, therefore, no one is ultimately in control of her/his actions. If you were to replace all of my brain cells, neuron for neuron, with those of a psychopath, I think it's safe to say I would make vastly different decisions. So how can one believe in the notion of "free will" while simultaneously believing in modern neuroscience? How can a person truly be in complete control of their actions if their brain is what makes their decisions and they did not choose the physical makeup of their own brain?
Certainly our neurophysiology limits our control. But i would argue the lack of complete control doesn't negate free will. Rather, asserting we have no freewill is equal to stating that we have no control. Consequently if we have any degree of control, then we have free will.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I think the problem stems from an inability to recognize 'gestalt'; wherein the result achieved is greater than the possibilities allowed by the sum of the respective parts.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Certainly our neurophysiology limits our control. But i would argue the lack of complete control doesn't negate free will. Rather, asserting we have no freewill is equal to stating that we have no control. Consequently if we have any degree of control, then we have free will.

I think @Polymath257 got to the heart of the issue when he explained that if we are purely physical matter and we rewound the universe to a previous state, then we would all be exactly the same as before. And since for our decisions to be free, they must be made by us and have a connection to who we are, then of course our decisions would be the same. So if we define free will as the ability to have acted differently, then assuming our decisions are determined by our brains, then of course free will can't exist. The question is whether that definition is even interesting or not. Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett have argued over whether the inability to theoretically have chosen differently is significant or not. Harris thinks it is, while Dennett does not, and prefers to define free will differently, and instead defines it based on whether one has the physical ability to make a choice in the present. At least, that's my understanding of their differences in definitions.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
If the choice is already made before you're aware of making it, then how are you in control of that choice in any sense?
I'm not consciously in control. But my subconscious is in control and the data retrieval to the conscious mind takes a while.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I'm not consciously in control. But my subconscious is in control and the data retrieval to the conscious mind takes a while.

What is "subconsciousness" and if one is not conscious of a decision, then how can it possibly be freely chosen? It sounds to me like the brain does all of the decision making automatically and unconsciously based on its physical characteristics and then later gives itself the "illusion" of having made a conscious, free decision.
 

Yazata

Active Member
I think that it's a fundamental mistake to assume that free will somehow requires what Patricia Churchland called a "causal vacuum". Free will isn't behavior that occurs without a cause, it's behavior that has a particular kind of cause. Namely behavior that's the result or our own motives, understanding and decision processes. All of these can and probably do have neurological correlates.

It's important to recognize that causality isn't necessarily the same thing as determinism. Causality says that every event has a preceeding cause. Determinism says that the state of the universe at time A determines the state of the universe at time B. My speculation is that that at least some of that causal determination is probabilistic. In other words, causality defines a range of possible outcomes and assigns likelihoods of each one occurring. And as the time interval between A and B increases, those indeterminacies might increase as well, and the probabilities with which accurate predictions can be made of B from A decrease towards chance.

My speculation is that the path that the evolution of the universe has taken is fundamentally unpredictable. In other words, if we ran the 'big bang' all over again, with all of the same initial conditions (as close as they can be physically specified, which might not be entirely precise if things like quantum indeterminacy hold), the evolution of the universe would likely follow an entirely different trajectory the second time. Things might turn out very different.

I should add that when I use words like 'my' and 'myself', I'm not talking about 'the human soul' or Descartes' 'mind substance' or anything like that. I use those words to refer to my own on-board cognitive and volitional process.

Are my internal states caused? Sure. I think that they almost certainly are.

Are they determined? Probably 'yes' with a high degree of accuracy if we are talking about the states and experiences that immediately preceeded them, but probably less accurately if we are talking about how things were a week ago or ten years ago. And I don't really buy the idea that everything I think and do now was already determined long before I was born.

Defining 'free-will' is difficult. We all have an intuition of what it means, but putting that into words is hard. Perhaps the best way to approach it is descriptively, by following how people use the idea and what they typically mean by it in real life.

I'll say that an action of mine is a free act of my own will if it resulted from my own purposes, goals, ideas, evaluations and decisions. In other words, an act of mine is free if the decision to do it arose inside me, so to speak, from a suitable employment of my own internal decision processes, and wasn't imposed on me from outside by some external force. That's typically what people mean when they say, as they might in a court of law, 'He acted of his own free will'.

That doesn't mean that causal processes can't be how those decisions are made. Nor does it mean that our inner states don't determine our behavior. Moving my arm by free-will isn't the same thing as watching it jerk convulsively. The exercise of free-will demands that my moving my arm be the result of my own decision. And that decision isn't just a random event, it needs to have arisen as the result of my own beliefs, goals and purposes. Far from being inconsistent with local determinism, free-will seems to demand it.


It's only when people start insisting that all of our behavior is fully determined by the external environment, by things entirely other than ourselves, that the free-will problems start to arise.

What William James called the 'iron block' kind of hard determinism seems to do violence to the idea of free-will by insisting that while it may seem like my acts are the result of my own decisions, which in turn arose from my own desires, evaluations and beliefs, that all of these were in fact determined by the state of reality long before I ever appeared. Put another way, the details of my internal deliberations and the results that they give rise to were totally imposed on me by the causal force of the universe outside me.

My own belief is that the probabilistic sort of determinism might not pose nearly as much of a challenge to my kind of idea of free-will. That's because while our inner decision processes might indeed be entirely naturalistic and causal in nature, the decisions and actions they result in might not have been precisely determined by the rest of the universe outside us at all. The nature of the surrounding universe might indeed suggest that we're more or less likely to do some things than others, but few adherents of free-will would really care to dispute that. In order to explain precisely why people make the choices they make, simply describing their external environment will rarely if ever be sufficient. The inquirer will have little choice but to look at what's happening inside the person's head.

 
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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It seems to me that the concept of "free will" or the idea that we have control over actions is incompatible with a materialist understanding of neuroscience. We know that our neurophysiology is what determines our actions, and no one chooses her/his neurophysiology, therefore, no one is ultimately in control of her/his actions. If you were to replace all of my brain cells, neuron for neuron, with those of a psychopath, I think it's safe to say I would make vastly different decisions. So how can one believe in the notion of "free will" while simultaneously believing in modern neuroscience? How can a person truly be in complete control of their actions if their brain is what makes their decisions and they did not choose the physical makeup of their own brain?


Very neuroscientist freely chose their career path
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that the concept of "free will" or the idea that we have control over actions is incompatible with a materialist understanding of neuroscience. We know that our neurophysiology is what determines our actions, and no one chooses her/his neurophysiology, therefore, no one is ultimately in control of her/his actions. If you were to replace all of my brain cells, neuron for neuron, with those of a psychopath, I think it's safe to say I would make vastly different decisions. So how can one believe in the notion of "free will" while simultaneously believing in modern neuroscience? How can a person truly be in complete control of their actions if their brain is what makes their decisions and they did not choose the physical makeup of their own brain?

Personally I don't equate 'free will' with having 'complete control', but if that's how you're defining free will, then I would have to agree, no one has complete control. But that doesn't mean we don't have a degree of control and I consider that degree of control to be our free will.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree, but if you're not aware of your choice, then how are you in control of it in any sense? To me, being in control of a choice requires awareness.

Well, you *are* aware of the decision after you have made it. :)

You 'control' your decision making processes by things like education, attitude, values, motivation, etc. You can even have a conscious component to the decision making process (searching out more information, weighing the options, etc). But the actual decision is made below the conscious level.

But it is still *you* that is making the decision. it isn't made by things 'outside of you'. Nobody else is 'controlling' the decision you make. The causal nexus for the decision is in your brain, in other words, in you.

Furthermore, if things had been *slightly* different, you may well have reached a different decision: many decisions are made by weighing so many different things that which way the decision will go can't be determined ahead of time unless you know *exactly* what each and every neuron is doing, what neurotransmitters are present and in what amounts, etc.

Once again you *are* what is happening in your brain, so to make a distinction between you controlling the decision and your neural circuitry controlling it is confusing different levels of description: the two are exactly the same thing.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Well, you *are* aware of the decision after you have made it. :)

You 'control' your decision making processes by things like education, attitude, values, motivation, etc. You can even have a conscious component to the decision making process (searching out more information, weighing the options, etc). But the actual decision is made below the conscious level.

But it is still *you* that is making the decision. it isn't made by things 'outside of you'. Nobody else is 'controlling' the decision you make. The causal nexus for the decision is in your brain, in other words, in you.

Furthermore, if things had been *slightly* different, you may well have reached a different decision: many decisions are made by weighing so many different things that which way the decision will go can't be determined ahead of time unless you know *exactly* what each and every neuron is doing, what neurotransmitters are present and in what amounts, etc.

Once again you *are* what is happening in your brain, so to make a distinction between you controlling the decision and your neural circuitry controlling it is confusing different levels of description: the two are exactly the same thing.

Yeah, I think you're right. But no one's brain chooses its own chemical composition. So in that sense I'd say we certainly don't have free will. But it's mostly just a semantics discussion.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Nothing I guess. I'm just pointing out that neuroscience pretty much proves free will is an illusion.
Everyday we make choices in life that prove free will. For examples my mother could be sick in hospital. I can choose to visit her or not visit her. If I decide to visit her, I can choose to buy her flowers or not buy her flowers. If she dies I can choose to have her cremated or buried or I can choose to ask her what her preference might be or not ask her....etc etc etc.. The fact that free will is demonstrated every single day, in day to day life, for me proves that it is the thinking that neuroscience pretty much proves free will is an illusion that is the real delusion.
 
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Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Personally I don't equate 'free will' with having 'complete control', but if that's how you're defining free will, then I would have to agree, no one has complete control. But that doesn't mean we don't have a degree of control and I consider that degree of control to be our free will.

Maybe. I think the universe may be completely deterministic, though, but I certainly could be wrong. I can imagine that if there were some super-intelligent entity (this is just a hypothetical of course), then he/she/it could predict what we do just as easily as we predict when the next solar eclipse will be. I think that chemistry is applied physics, biology is applied chemistry, and thus ultimately applied physics, so if we were smart enough to discover the laws of physics that govern the behavior of biological organisms, we could predict their behaviors with the same accuracy as we predict the rotation of planets around stars. In the end, it's all just physical "stuff" following the laws of physics, it's just that biological organisms follow way more complex physical patterns. At least, that's my idea.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that the concept of "free will" or the idea that we have control over actions is incompatible with a materialist understanding of neuroscience. We know that our neurophysiology is what determines our actions, and no one chooses her/his neurophysiology, therefore, no one is ultimately in control of her/his actions. If you were to replace all of my brain cells, neuron for neuron, with those of a psychopath, I think it's safe to say I would make vastly different decisions. So how can one believe in the notion of "free will" while simultaneously believing in modern neuroscience? How can a person truly be in complete control of their actions if their brain is what makes their decisions and they did not choose the physical makeup of their own brain?
Well your brain is part of you just as every other part of your body is. If we were allowed to choose for ourselves you would have nothing but extremely good looking people with the intelligence of Einstein walking around. :)

Whether we have actual free will or the illusion of it, doesn't really make any difference for a person as an individual. There is a moral issues though, which is the same one as to whether or not it is justice to blame a mentally ill person for committing a murder or whatever. That person didn't choose to be born that way, yet we punish them for it.
My guess is that in the far future, people will look at us today and point out how unfair that way of doing things is, and probably shake or wonder why we couldn't simply fix these issues at an early stage, because its brain science 101 for 5th graders :D. Just as we look back at those before us and wonder why the hell they would burn people for being witches or whatever.
 

Secret Chief

Veteran Member
What is "subconsciousness" and if one is not conscious of a decision, then how can it possibly be freely chosen? It sounds to me like the brain does all of the decision making automatically and unconsciously based on its physical characteristics and then later gives itself the "illusion" of having made a conscious, free decision.
I believe that "free will" is a useful illusion. But then I would say that, wouldn't I. o_O
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems to me that the concept of "free will" or the idea that we have control over actions is incompatible with a materialist understanding of neuroscience. We know that our neurophysiology is what determines our actions, and no one chooses her/his neurophysiology, therefore, no one is ultimately in control of her/his actions. If you were to replace all of my brain cells, neuron for neuron, with those of a psychopath, I think it's safe to say I would make vastly different decisions. So how can one believe in the notion of "free will" while simultaneously believing in modern neuroscience? How can a person truly be in complete control of their actions if their brain is what makes their decisions and they did not choose the physical makeup of their own brain?

I've had the same thoughts for a while.
I've basically decided that belief in 'free will' has utility, even if ultimately I am finding it less likely. I'm not inclined to invest in properly studying this area of neuroscience, and suspect there is not ultimately definitive answers in place anyway. So I shall continue to live my life as if I have free will, and consider concepts like 'personal responsibility' as important.
 
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