Thief
Rogue Theologian
and if I follow you.....believing does not make it true
but a firm line of thought can set aside denial
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Is Genesis True?
- Thread starter Windwalker
- Start date
but a firm line of thought can set aside denial
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Your line of speech is confusing and I don't know your point because of it. Probably cause it's broken up as well.
What is the nature of almighty?
I know it's greater, powerful, and all of that...but Who I greater? Who is powerful?
What is the nature that these things describe?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
the adjectives speak clearly enough
imagine a line of Beings
you can join the line if they let you
would you be at the front of the line?
or trailing behind?
Dell
Asteroid insurance?
Youve been around on RF to know the scientific arguments, so obviously:
1. Um, physics 101. Energy and mass. You think the creation of all elements from Hydrogen to the least required element to build life is physically possible in 6 days from nothing not to mention in current state? The contradicting evidence is easy. To make it easy and visual for you download Cosmos, start from the CMB and hit play. Estimated that just the first stars appeared 180 million years after the big bang.
2. Go to any museum of natural history. Plenty of artifacts that will refute a 6 day creation. Most museums accurately display the last 500 million years of life forms on earth and their evolution.
3. What creditable evidence can you present to support a 6 day creation and where can I observe it?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
and a day in the life of God is like unto a thousand years....
when that was written....the people cold hardly imagine a life span
a thousand years to a day
so that would be a rough comparison
give or take a few millennials
dfnj
Well-Known Member
It's mythology. Eden represents man's innocence before puberty or childhood innocence. After puberty, man sees himself separate from his parents who are metaphorical Gods. After puberty man becomes aware of all his imperfections. Once you become aware of all your imperfections you can no longer return back to the garden of Eden of childhood.
Besides, do any of you honest think God did not know exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with naked woman prancing about! Of course he did.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
nay...
the garden event was not just a change of the bodily form of Man
the change was aimed at mind and heart.....
as such things are the twitch of your finger
Man needs to be that creature curious.....even if death is pending consequence
say.....partake and die
say again.....maybe not
see what happens
Adam and Eve passed the test
and Man would forever be that creature curious.....even in the face of death
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
The Buddha has many attributes as god. So does hindus gods such as love and compassion. Some religious gods are spirits and others are portrayed by their mythological traits and worshiped this day as Pagans.
Yet these attributes only describe these people and spirits and incarnations. They dont define them.
For example, I am an artist, short, and LGBTQ. My nature is a human being and it's defined in contrast to animals and plants.
So, artist describes a human
???? Describes the almighty.
What is: ???
Do you understand the question?
What reassures me is that this disturbing and weird scene never took place.
btw..the size of that snake is disturbing too...
btw..the size of that snake is disturbing too...
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
It's not necessarily historically true but it is symbolically true.
Actually what's weird and disturbing is watching bison mate in the background.
Actually what's weird and disturbing is watching bison mate in the background.
I've said similar things to this, that while the story has God casting us out of the Garden, the actual workings of that from a scientific perspective is that we literally stood up on two feet and walked out of our own accord, choosing to awaken rather than continuing in the slumber of ignorance of the mind. We questioned the state of our existence, even though that very thing itself was part of the natural process of evolution leading stage by stage up to us having the ability to "choose" this path vs that path.
We chose what lay ahead, to not remain where we were. It was a choice of courage, but one which came with a price. We could see our own deaths, but not the mere death of the body which we'd seen countless times before in the world, but the disappearance of that "me" which we began identifying with as making us "individuals". Now this awakens existential terror, "and they were afraid", as the story goes.
There are great deal that can be gleaned out of that story as a fascinating, and timeless story of this state of being as Plotinus put it, "Mankind is poised midway between the gods and the beasts". I see it as including, but deeper than questions of moral responsibility. Those are of course related and intertwined within it, but I see them more as secondary threads rather than primary.
We awoke to a world of awareness of non-existence, and took our natural fear for survival and it became an underlying tension to our very existence. We looked back into our minds and imagined that time in our youth when we weren't caught up in such unsettling concerns, a time when we walked happily without concern of death, where God, or bliss was more accessible to us than it is now.
We were happy then, but we aren't now. What happened? Adam and Eve, they ****ed it all up, and we can't help but keep doing the same thing as them!, not realizing this is part of what makes us human, that tension to resolve, not by going back to childhood, but awakening beyond adulthood to that state of bliss once again. But not with our eyes clouded as in childhood, but with the awareness of adulthood, but with the heart of that innocent child we once were, that Adam and that Eve, before the fall.
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Dave Turner
New Member
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
While I do believe it to be true, I also believe people don't actually realize what it says.
What most people consider are commonly-accepted ideas about what is written -not simply what is written and what those words actually say and allow for.
For example, much is assumed about even the first extremely vague statements.
("In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth", etc.)
It is usually assumed that what follows is a description of the first statement -but that doesn't even make sense in the context of the rest of scripture.
The second statement -which is more correctly translated "and the earth had become waste and ruin" not only allows for any amount of time for the creation of the heavens and earth -but indicates that what follows is in response to that undesirable state which occurred an unspecified amount of time after the heavens and earth already existed.
That allows for life on earth -even humanoid -before and in parallel with Adam's line (man by biblical definition -not scientific)
etc., etc., etc.
It is extremely difficult to read Genesis with a completely open mind, but it really is necessary even if one's intent is to disprove what is actually written and what those words allow.
If you keep spamming this you are going to find yourself in trouble. You should check the rules.
I don't translate these "creative stories", as "false claims". I see them as creative structures on which to hang the message, like Jesus walking on water and raising the dead to create the image of this individual whose nature set him apart from the rest of the religious teachers of the day.
Those are radically different points of view on the same thing, and one where I feel calling these "false claims" is highly flawed. It presumes the nature of these stories to be what you or I might be doing when trying to lay out the "facts" of history, such as doing our own genealogies, and falsely claiming we a descended from George Washington, when we have entirely different sets of resources available to us, and approach these things from entirely different mindsets than ancient man did.
The nature of mythology is deliberately laced with these images of the supernatural. But even if one removes those, that does not mean the truth that those were meant to "enhance" is false. That does not follow logically at all. Just because George Washington never actually chopped down a cherry tree, does not mean that therefore the message that honesty is better than lying is now no longer valid. Just because Adam and Eve were not actual historical people, does not mean that we as humans don't suffer a fear of death. Right?
The question of sin, is why the story was made up in the first place. Sin existed in human awareness, before the story. The story didn't create it. The story expresses it. See the difference?
Do you feel there are no shortcomings, guilts, shames, blames, fear, anger, hatreds, etc., in you own life? If so, then I congratulate you, you're Enlightened and now can teach the rest of us how you overcame these states. Then we can create myths about you, and having you walking on water and raising the dead too to elevate you as a teacher of truth for us to follow in the footsteps of.
In actuality, the story works because it gives a face to this condition of "sin" that we all share, by pure virtue of being human. It's a story. It doesn't matter if it is historically or scientifically "factual". It's not a "lie" or a "false claim", when what it points to in fact is experienced by everyone.
It could be dressed up in an entirely different myth, which a warrior hero and a sword killing a dragon that represents our sin. It's the same thing. It's not that dragons are actually real, it's that sin is, and dragons are just what the author choice to represent them. This is the nature of mythology. They are made up stories, about real things which are not actual dragons, but our own inner realities we all share.
And then those who have gone beyond being just ExChristians realize that mythologies are not the same thing as "false claims" or "lies". That understanding that it's a "lie", is like a child who first learns that Santa isn't a real person with elves at the North Pole. At first they are dismayed, "Why would mom and dad LIE to me!!!", but then they realize, it's not the facts of the story that is important, but the truths that the fictitious characters symbolize that is in fact, quite true indeed. Christmastime is magical. That is real. Not that dude in the red suit. He's just window dressing.Former Christians, who have this understanding of how humans precisely evolved , know the Biblical tales of Creation are mythological rather than factual.
Why is it disturbing?
You are Enlightened? You've never experienced the "dark night of the soul"? You've never felt separate from the world, or from others, isolated into your own mind, experiencing fear, dread, loss, anxiety, shame, guilt, anger, etc?
BTW, I don't believe I said or claimed that we collectively in our past ever "felt absolutely grounded and connected to the earth". I don't think I actually believe that. In fact, I know I don't. What I do believe however is that we can, and some have and actually do. They are what we call Enlightened individuals. That is accessible to everyone, but very few actually realize that in the experience of their humanness. I do believe that is in fact a very real state that is a goal for many, and can be realized.