• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is genocide ok if God tells you to do it?

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
So why make us fight for 34 pages to establish that? Why not just admit it up front? I guess you're not very proud of your so-called "morality." Of course, to someone who thinks genocide is moral, I guess a little lack of consideration is as nothing.
We didn't fight for 34 pages. I didn't start posting till like the 11th or 12th page, and our debate didn't start till about the 20-22 page.

I could have "admitted" it up front. But I saw your agenda lurking behind your posts. I guess I got distracted by all the hatred that was dripping from your words and felt that I might as well attempt to wash the acid of hate from you. I should know by now (in all my years of debating people such as yourself) that attempting to get you to stop hating is something I am unable to do.

So now you're defining "victory" to mean "genocide has been achieved?"
Victory depends on the reason for war. In those cases, victory was the elimination of the other people.

I think the best thing for all of us is to lock you up now, before you act on your moral principles. At a minimum, please do not take care of anyone else's children.

I never said that these ideas were applicable to everyone for all time. Another assumption that you have reached due to your hatred.

btw, did you notice that your morality contradicts your own asserted morality. What I mean is, you said that genocide is immoral. Then you said it's moral, if God commands it.
Genocide is immoral unless God commands us to do it.

So, let's say you're a Hebrew soldier. The battle is over. You're back at camp. Moses tells you to return to the prisoners and kill all the baby boys. Do you do it?

If God had told me to eliminate the people the first time, I would have done so then. I don't like to leave a job unfinished.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
God is one. That means that outside of God nothing exists. Without going into the entire Kabbalah of the nature of God and the realms He created, the simple answer to your question is that I don't believe in Satan. There is no supernatural opposite figure waiting around to make us sway from God's will. There is only God.
Okay then, try this: through technology and trickery, there may be a person or group of people who are capable of putting on some sort of display that would be astounding enough to make you believe that the source of the display is God. Not through any supernatural source, just through ingenuity, effort, and potentially some non-supernatural technological advances that aren't yet common knowledge.

Say you're confronted with this apparition or what-have-you and believe it could have no source but God. It then commands you to do something. Would you automatically do whatever this apparition told you, or would you evaluate the command to decide whether it's reasonable or moral? Would you be able to consider the nature of the commands you're hearing to decide whether it's really God or just someone doing a really good con job?

If victory is defined as the elimination of the other people, then the fact that fighting stopped does not mean that victory was achieved.
How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?

Yes. Because no one has the authority to command anyone else to do anything.
Hang on: you're talking about moral war, but you say that nobody but God has the authority to command anyone else? Exactly how would this army of yours function?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Knight is right. I have an unreasonable hatred against genocide and an irrational prejudice against infanticide. But that's just me.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
You're a disgrace.

Do you ever post any sort of reasoning in your posts? I'm beginning to notice a patter with you. You post a few words concerning the nature of a person based on your assumptions of their character, but you never really give any reasons or show any logic behind it...

Okay then, try this: through technology and trickery, there may be a person or group of people who are capable of putting on some sort of display that would be astounding enough to make you believe that the source of the display is God. Not through any supernatural source, just through ingenuity, effort, and potentially some non-supernatural technological advances that aren't yet common knowledge.

Say you're confronted with this apparition or what-have-you and believe it could have no source but God. It then commands you to do something. Would you automatically do whatever this apparition told you, or would you evaluate the command to decide whether it's reasonable or moral? Would you be able to consider the nature of the commands you're hearing to decide whether it's really God or just someone doing a really good con job?
I would be forced to question whether or not the apparition was truly of God. If I could not find evidence to support a 50%+ probability of the apparition being of God, then I should not do what the apparition says.

How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg?
Victory in war means accomplishing the goals for which you went to war. The goals change from war to war and thus the terms of victory change from war to war.

Hang on: you're talking about moral war, but you say that nobody but God has the authority to command anyone else? Exactly how would this army of yours function?
I didn't say that no one has the authority to command anyone else. No human being has the power to determine what is moral for another human being.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Knight is right. I have an unreasonable hatred against genocide and an irrational prejudice against infanticide. But that's just me.

You have an unreasonable and irrational hatred of religion. Hating genocide and infanticide is perfectly fine (and expected from any normal human being).
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Unless God commands you to do it. And hating that is unreasonable?!?


One should still hate it even if God commands it. Just because on has to take life does not mean that one should enjoy it. You assume that if God told me to kill someone that I would get all excited and happy.

I would still be saddened, for the loss of a human life is a tragic thing.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
One should still hate it even if God commands it. Just because on has to take life does not mean that one should enjoy it. You assume that if God told me to kill someone that I would get all excited and happy.
So you would hate good morality?

I would still be saddened, for the loss of a human life is a tragic thing.
Of course you would! Inside you there is still a normal, caring person who hates infanticide, as is natural for all people. Religion has not completely dulled your natural sympathy and morality. Unfortunately, as 9/11 demonstrated once again, it may persuade you to overcome it to do what is "right," no matter how immoral.

And you call my objection to that an unreasonable hatred.

As a Jew, and a child of a concentration-camp survivor, I have a strong abhorence to religious justification for genocide. It's not theoretical. There are people alive right now who believe as you do, and who also believe their God has commanded them to kill innocent babies. And you agree with them that if this were the case, they would do right to do so. The only place you differ is a factual question: did God in fact so command them? Morally, you're identical.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I would be forced to question whether or not the apparition was truly of God. If I could not find evidence to support a 50%+ probability of the apparition being of God, then I should not do what the apparition says.
So... when confronted with a sufficiently convincing divine apparition, you would do absolutely anything it told you to do, no matter how odd, evil or just plain nutty?

Victory in war means accomplishing the goals for which you went to war. The goals change from war to war and thus the terms of victory change from war to war.
The goals change, but they remain within the context of military strategy. Genocide of a the civilians of a subdued enemy falls outside this context.

I didn't say that no one has the authority to command anyone else. No human being has the power to determine what is moral for another human being.
You didn't?

But if anyone else commanded the exact same action, it would be immoral, right?

Yes. Because no one has the authority to command anyone else to do anything.

Did you mis-phrase your earlier reply?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
One should still hate it even if God commands it. Just because on has to take life does not mean that one should enjoy it. You assume that if God told me to kill someone that I would get all excited and happy.

I would still be saddened, for the loss of a human life is a tragic thing.

Hmm.

Psalm 127:7-9:


7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
From The Torah: A Modern Commentary - W. Gunther Plaut
An early attempt was made in Talmudic days. The Hebrew for "show them no pity" (lo teHannem) was read as "do not grant them [land]," as if the text read lo taHnem), that is, do not sell real estate to "them-a rendering which leaned on the warning in Exod. 23:33 not to let them dwell "in your land". But even if one would deem this interpretation feasible (which. it is not, in view of the clear Masoretic text), one could not argue away the provision of Deut. 20:16 which, using another word, unequivocally says, "You shall not let a soul remain alive.

The text has further been defended on the grounds of necessity: unless the native people were done away with, they would ensnare Israel with their idolatrous practices, and the maintenance of the Sinaitic covenant was a task overshadowing all else. God's plans for humanity could not and cannot be measured by human considerations. To emphasize this point, S. R. Hirsch interpreted the twice issued injunction of verses 2 and 16 to show that repetition was needed because it went so much against the sensibilities of the Israelites. However, no student of history can easily accept such a reading, for all too many humans have fallen victim to inquisitors and crusading warriors who pretended to act out of the highest religious motives. And already in talmudic times the notion was rejected that an Almighty God would agree to wipe idolatry off the face of the earth, though He had the power to do so.

One comes closer to an understanding of the Torah if one abandons efforts to shield it from criticism and sees it in the light of its own time, its values, and standards. "The custom to 'dedicate' an enemy to the deity, or to ban him, or after a victory to annihilate him, is told us of various Near Eastern nations as well as of the Greeks, Romans, Celts, and Germans. Since the sensitivities of the ancients were not offended by the rigor of this procedure, Moses could use this harsh war practice as a means to shield Israel from pagan infection .

But even this interpretation does not do the text full justice, for it ascribes to Moses a point of view which may not have been his at all. Moreover, and most important: the unyielding tenor of these provisions stands in sharp contrast to the fact that such a policy of annihilation was, never carried out-the Canaanites were not annihilated. In fact, in Judg. 3:1, God himself is said to have abrogated His original command (see above, at verse 22). Later, in retrospect-taking Deuteronomy to be a post-settlement and not a Mosaic document-the reader was told that the rampant idolatry which characterized Israel's history for centuries could have been avoided had the native peoples been destroyed. Note that the sermon warns the Israelites not to intermarry with the idolaters -the very idolaters who were supposed to be doomed!

A proper understanding, then, would view these passages as retrojections of what could and might have been, and the sentiments were acceptable in view of the common practices of the times.​

From Deuteronomy: The Traditional Hebrew Text with the New JPS Translation - Jeffrey H. Tigay
Modern scholars hold that this law is purely theoretical and was never in effect. In their view, the populations of only a few Canaanite cities were annihilated, but most were not. There is much evidence in favor of this view. Archaeology has found only a few Canaanite cities that seem to have been destroyed by the Israelites when they arrived in the land at the beginning of the Iron Age (ca. 1200 B.C.E.). As noted above, pre-Deuteronomic laws, in Exodus, speak of the Canaanites being expelled rather than annihilated, and the narratives of Judges, Kings, and Joshua 15-17 indicate that many were neither expelled nor annihilated but were spared and subjected to forced labor.3 Some scholars suggest that even Deuteronomy did not originally require annihilating the Canaanites. In their view, Deuteronomy's original law consisted only of 20:10-14, according to which all cities are to be offered terms of submission. They note that Joshua 11:19,Joshua 15-17, and Judges all reflect this form of the law. In this view the following paragraph in Deuteronomy, verses 15-18, is a later supplement that modifies the original law by restricting the requirement to offer the option of surrender to foreign, non-Canaanite cities. This supplement is reflected in Deuteronomy 7:1-5, 16-26, and the narratives of Joshua 6-11 (except for Joshua 11:19-20), but it is based on a theoretical reconstruction, conceived at a later time when the Canaanites had ceased to exist as a discernible element of the population in Israel, to account for their disappearance.

If this is the case, where did the idea of proscribing the Canaanites come from? The historical books, as noted, indicate that the invading Israelites did proscribe some Canaanite cities. Proscription was a well-known practice in the ancient world. One type of proscription was the religious practice of devoting property, cattle, or persons (perhaps the victims of sacrificial vows, such as Jephthah's daughter) irrevocably to a deity, that is, to a sanctuary and the priests, sometimes by destruction or killing. Another type was punitive proscription, which consisted of executing those who committed severe offenses against the gods. This type is prescribed by Exodus 22:17 for individual idolaters, and by Deuteronomy 13:13-18for idolatrous cities. Proscription of enemy armies and populations to the gods is known from various places in the ancient world. King Mesha of Moab proscribed the Israelite inhabitants of some towns in Transjordan to his god when he recaptured former Moabite territory there. Other parallels are known from Mesopotamia and ancient Europe. In the context of ancient warfare, in which the gods were believed to be the main fighters and human antagonists their enemies, proscription of the enemy's population seemed to be a natural way for an army to express devotion to a deity. A case in point is God's command to Saul to proscribe the Amalekites to avenge their ancient ambush of the Israelites. Proscription was not considered necessary or obligatory in most cases, but was something that an army might vow to do to induce divine aid in critical circumstances, such as before a crucial battle or a counterattack following a defeat. Examples of this are Israel's proscription of Arad and Ai after initial defeats by them, and the proscription of Jericho at the start of Israel’s campaign for the promised land.

Deuteronomy appears to have inferred from cases like these that the disappearance of the Canaanites was due to a systematic policy of proscription. Aware that there were no discernible Canaanites left in Israel, aware from Exodus and Numbers that the land was to be rid of them, aware of Exodus 22:17,which requires proscription of Israelite idolaters, and mindful of its own law requiring proscription of idolatrous Israelite cities, Deuteronomy must have assumed that God, in His zeal to protect Israel from exposure to pagan abominations, had required eliminating the Canaanites by the same means. It is interesting, however, that Deuteronomy never speaks of proscribing the victims to God. It uses proscription in a purely secular way, meaning simply "destruction." It is not a sacrifice to God but a practical measure to prevent the debasement of Israelite conduct.

Traditional Jewish commentators, as mentioned, do not believe that Deuteronomy means to proscribe the Canaanites unconditionally. The Sifrei and other halakhic sources reason that since the express purpose of the law is to prevent the Canaanites from influencing the Israelites with their abhorrent religious practices (v. 18), if they abandoned their paganism and accepted the moral standards of the Noachide laws they were to be spared. Maimonides holds that verse 10 requires that Israel offer terms of surrender to all cities, Canaanite included. In his view, when verse 15says "thus you shall deal" with non-Canaanite cities, it is not referring to, and limiting, verse 10, but verse 14, which calls for sparing the women and children of a city taken in battle. In his view this means that all cities must be given the option of surrender; the difference between Canaanite and foreign cities is only that if foreign cities reject the offer, only their men are to be killed, but if Canaanite cities reject the offer, their entire population is to be killed. This view is compatible with Joshua 11:19,which implies that Canaanite cities could have saved themselves by surrendering: "Not a single city made terms [hishlimah] with the Israelites; all were taken in battle."

These arguments notwithstanding, it is clear from 7:1-2 and 16 that Deuteronomy's demand for proscription of the Canaanites is indeed unconditional. The rabbis' rejection of this view is a reflection of their own sensibilities. As M. Greenberg has observed, they must have regarded this understanding of the law as implausible because it is so harsh and inconsistent with other values, such as the prophetic concept of repentance and the prediction that idolaters will someday abandon false gods, and the halakhic principle that wrongdoers may not be punished unless they have been warned that their action is illegal and informed of the penalty. In effect, they used interpretation to modify and soften the law in deference to other, overriding principles.
 
Last edited:

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Again:
The rabbis' rejection of this view is a reflection of their own sensibilities. As M. Greenberg has observed, they must have regarded this understanding of the law as implausible because it is so harsh and inconsistent with other values, such as the prophetic concept of repentance and the prediction that idolaters will someday abandon false gods, and the halakhic principle that wrongdoers may not be punished unless they have been warned that their action is illegal and informed of the penalty. In effect, they used interpretation to modify and soften the law in deference to other, overriding principles. [ibid]
And it is precisely this sensibility and deference to overriding principles that is entirely lacking from TheKnight's disgusting apologetics.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
So you would hate good morality?

It's not a matter of hating the morality of it. One can do an action and not feel good about doing the action. I hope that I never feel good about killing someone, that doesn't mean I won't if it is necessary.



The only place you differ is a factual question: did God in fact so command them?
Indeed. This would be the question that had to be answered.


So... when confronted with a sufficiently convincing divine apparition, you would do absolutely anything it told you to do, no matter how odd, evil or just plain nutty?
If there were evidence of a 50%+ probability of that thing being a representation of God, then yes.

You didn't?



Did you mis-phrase your earlier reply?

My apologies. I did miss-word it, or rather I thought what I was saying was clear. My point was that a human being does not have the authority to determine what is objectively moral for someone else. We can't force others to live by our standards of morality because none of us is any more special or superior then the other.

Hmm.

Psalm 127:7-9:


7 Remember, O LORD, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
"Tear it down," they cried,
"tear it down to its foundations!"

8 O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us-

9 he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.

Poetic use of language to convey a concept, not a literal view.

-snip for brevity-

Essentially you posted a large amount of writing about what I had already said. All attempts to save life should be made.
 

averageJOE

zombie
TheKnight,

Wow...just wow.

You've stated time and time again that you would kill infants if God told you to. You would feel bad afterwards but you would still do it. No one here is going to change your mind. I draw two conclusions from your posts;

1) You cannot think and make desicions for yourself. You would obay a voice in your head that tells you to do things you know to be wrong, because that voice is God.

2) Charles Manson claimed that all he was doing was exactly what God told him to do. Other people truley believed that God was speaking to him and helped him slaughter innocent people. Osama Bin Laden also claimed that 9/11 was "Allah's Will". That Allah (God) told him to do it. You sound just like these guys. (or try to anyways)
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
TheKnight,

1) You cannot think and make desicions for yourself. You would obay a voice in your head that tells you to do things you know to be wrong, because that voice is God.
Of course I can't. I only listen to the voices in my head. Surely that is what is wrong with me.

For the record, I can and do think for myself. I can and do make decisions for myself. I would not obey a voice in my head because that wouldn't be God.

I don't know anything to be wrong because right and wrong are not objectively determined things. I determine right and wrong based on a higher standard of morality that I believe God delivered to the Jews 3300 years ago at Sinai.
 
Top