Is genocide ok if God tells you to do it?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Eh, in a way. The thing about the keys is that I don't have anything external to rely on other than my own internal thoughts. There are plenty of scenarios where you have external evidence to rely on.

You've got lots of external help with your keys: you've got a reference point of where you know you had your keys. You have the knowledge of your own habits. You've got an incredible amount of firsthand knowledge, plus an ability to make judgements about yourself developed over a lifetime's experience. Homicide detectives could only dream of having that sort of insight into the subjects of their judgements.

Well, in this case, 40% would be Him not doing everything He did when He first said not to take lives. 60% would be Him doing more than what He did when He first said not to take lives.

Okay... can you show your calculations?

You've said before that showing you all the signs that He showed the ancient Israelites would get you just over 50%. I infer that 40% is for what we talked about: all of that minus frogs, locusts, and the river of blood. This means that those three miracles together are worth 10% certainty, right? How much certainty were the frogs worth by themselves? 1.5%? 4%? 8%? Whatever value you assigned to them, how did you arrive at it?

You can't be sure of anything based on logic alone (except math, math is God).

Speaking of math and not to be critical, but I'm curious: how much math have you taken in school?

 

[Autodidact]

Before you get there, 9/10, on what basis are you >50% confident that the events described actually happened?

 

[Perfect Circle]

About your "existence of the Jews" argument, consider this scenario. Let's say I'm a scam artist. I get 10000 email addresses. I pick a stock. I send 5000 people my prediction that the stock will go up, 5000 my prediction the stock will go down, and invite all of them to buy my stock predicting service. The stock either goes up or down, and I send a second e-mail to the 5000 who got the right advice, along with the name of a second stock. I tell 2500 it will go up, and 2500 it will go down. The 2500 who got the right advice both times are intrigued, so I repeat the procedure, 1250/1250, and finally once more, 625/625. I now have 625 people who think I'm an amazing stock predictor,having picked right 4 times in a row. If I send them all one last email, guaranteeing my results, against splitting them into two groups, and inviting them to send me $1000 for my amazing, guaranteed, stock prediction newsletter, I think a significant number of them will do so.

Genius!

Similarly, various groups and tribes die out eventually, but 1 will last longer than the others, just by random luck, and it does not show that the God of that group exists or is powerful. It's retro-diction, which is bogus.

And another thing, shouldn't g-d have delivered on more promises than mere existence? Shouldn't we be in a lot better shape, power and success-wise?

You made the point I've been after better than I ever could have. :bow:

 

[TheKnight]

Okay... can you show your calculations?

No. I don't assign numerical values to the events in the Torah. My point is, if something happened before when God said not to murder, than the only way that could change is if just as much happened.

Whatever value you assigned to them, how did you arrive at it?

I don't assign values outside of theoretical discussions.

Speaking of math and not to be critical, but I'm curious: how much math have you taken in school?

In high school I took up to Advanced Calculus. I'm going to major in math in college as well.

 

[Autodidact]

Genius!

You made the point I've been after better than I ever could have. :bow:

Thanks, but I got it out of some book. I do accept frubals for plagiarism, however.

 

[TheKnight]

Similarly, various groups and tribes die out eventually, but 1 will last longer than the others, just by random luck, and it does not show that the God of that group exists or is powerful. It's retro-diction, which is bogus.

And another thing, shouldn't g-d have delivered on more promises than mere existence? Shouldn't we be in a lot better shape, power and success-wise?

My point is not just that they survived, but they did so when everything says that they shouldn't have. Not only that, but the fact that the Torah predicts it...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. I don't assign numerical values to the events in the Torah. My point is, if something happened before when God said not to murder, than the only way that could change is if just as much happened.

Even if it's not a change? God saying "kill this guy - it's legal" doesn't mean that He's changed His mind about murder, i.e. illegal killing.

I don't assign values outside of theoretical discussions.

Then what exactly have you meant by "50%+"?

In high school I took up to Advanced Calculus. I'm going to major in math in college as well.

Thanks.

 

[TheKnight]

Even if it's not a change? God saying "kill this guy - it's legal" doesn't mean that He's changed His mind about murder, i.e. illegal killing.

I know there's nothing wrong with it if God tells me. However, when it comes to my knowing that God is telling me, I have to exmaine the circumstances around which He tells me. He told me once before not to take lives. Therefore, if He tells me to kill someone (that I'm not already allowed to kill) then I have to assume that He is not the one telling me unless everything that happens like the first time He told me not to take lives.

Then what exactly have you meant by "50%+"?

Two decisions with equal results and circumstances would be a 50% decision.

 

[Autodidact]

My point is not just that they survived, but they did so when everything says that they shouldn't have. Not only that, but the fact that the Torah predicts it...

Doesn't the Torah also predict, in the same circumstances, that the Jews will be destroyed? Deuteronomy 28:22, 28:24, 28:48, 28:51 And that the return to Israel only happen after the Jews as a nation returning to faithful obedience to g-d? And a bunch of other stuff that didn't happen? Sounds like the stock-oicking metaphor is pretty good, to me--you only look at the fulfilled predictions, and ignore all the misses.

 

[Autodidact]

I know there's nothing wrong with it if God tells me. However, when it comes to my knowing that God is telling me, I have to exmaine the circumstances around which He tells me.

You keep saying this, but it's wrong, and you should know that. G-d told you not to murder. Murder is unauthorized killing. Lots of killing authorized, as I'm sure you are aware. In act, sometimes it's commanded.

 

[TheKnight]

Doesn't the Torah also predict, in the same circumstances, that the Jews will be destroyed? Deuteronomy 28:22, 28:24, 28:48, 28:51

The pre-requisite to their destruction is: "

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee." ~Deut 28:15

In case you did not know, those groups that abandoned the Torah and ceased following the commandments don't exist. For instance, the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Zealots, the Karaites, etc. Every Jewish break off group in history that attempted to retain Jewish identity but not also retain observance of the Torah no longer exists.

It's only a matter of time before the same happens with Reform and Conservative movements. The only group that has consistently existed is the Orthodox group, those who oserve the commandments. After all, "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all the nations of the earth"~Deut 28:1

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Two decisions with equal results and circumstances would be a 50% decision.

Meaning what in this context? What are the two decisions with equal results and circumstances?

 

[TheKnight]

You keep saying this, but it's wrong, and you should know that. G-d told you not to murder. Murder is unauthorized killing. Lots of killing authorized, as I'm sure you are aware. In act, sometimes it's commanded.

I know that. But genocide is not. Therefore if I were to go commit genocide I would be violating the commandment of not murdering. The only way I would be able to commit genocide is if God told me to, and the only way I would have reasonable certainty that God is telling me is if He does just as much as He did the first time that He commanded that I not murder.

 

[TheKnight]

Meaning what in this context? What are the two decisions with equal results and circumstances?

Well, in this context it's not 50/50. There's much more suggesting that I should not commit genocide than there is suggesting that I should.

 

[Autodidact]

I know that. But genocide is not.

Oh for heaven's sakes. What have we been talking about for all these pages? Genocide is REPEATEDLY COMMANDED. I hate having to do the same thing over and over.

Therefore if I were to go commit genocide I would be violating the commandment of not murdering. The only way I would be able to commit genocide is if God told me to, and the only way I would have reasonable certainty that God is telling me is if He does just as much as He did the first time that He commanded that I not murder.

You do realize how circular this is, right?

Furthermore, God didn't tell you anything--you weren't there. You're relying on a notoriously unreliable source, the Torah. In fact, just about everything that can be verified in the Torah has been shown to be inaccurate. The earth was never flooded, the Jews were never slaves in Egypt, they did not conquer Canaan, the sun has never stood still, etc. etc.

 

[Autodidact]

The pre-requisite to their destruction is: "

But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee." ~Deut 28:15

In case you did not know, those groups that abandoned the Torah and ceased following the commandments don't exist. For instance, the Sadducees, the Essenes, the Zealots, the Karaites, etc. Every Jewish break off group in history that attempted to retain Jewish identity but not also retain observance of the Torah no longer exists.

It's only a matter of time before the same happens with Reform and Conservative movements. The only group that has consistently existed is the Orthodox group, those who oserve the commandments. After all, "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all the nations of the earth"~Deut 28:1

So what you're saying is that there are no reform or conservative Jews? They've been destroyed, and we only have Orthodox Jews now? Would you like to see the numbers? Not to mention apostate Jews, like me, we don't exist either, since we've been totally destroyed. And yet I continue to post. Bwa ha ha.

That's cherry picking at its finest. The Jews as a people are not following G-d's commandments. Yet they continue to exist, in direct violation of the Torah's predictions. Further, although they have not submitted to obedience to G-d's law, they have nevertheless returned to Israel, also in direct contradiction to the Torah's explicit predictions.

 

[TheKnight]

Oh for heaven's sakes. What have we been talking about for all these pages? Genocide is REPEATEDLY COMMANDED. I hate having to do the same thing over and over.

Genocide is repeatedly commanded in very specific instances. There is not, nor has there been a continuous eternal commandment for all humanity to commit genocide. Genocide was only commanded to the Israelites once. At that one time they were commanded to entirely destroy 7 different nations. That's it. There is not, however, any commandment to commit genocide in general.

Furthermore, God didn't tell you anything--you weren't there. You're relying on a notoriously unreliable source, the Torah. In fact, just about everything that can be verified in the Torah has been shown to be inaccurate. The earth was never flooded, the Jews were never slaves in Egypt, they did not conquer Canaan, the sun has never stood still, etc. etc.

None of those things have been shown to be inaccurate. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. And there is no positive negative evidence to entirely disprove it.

 

[TheKnight]

So what you're saying is that there are no reform or conservative Jews? They've been destroyed, and we only have Orthodox Jews now? Would you like to see the numbers? Not to mention apostate Jews, like me, we don't exist either, since we've been totally destroyed. And yet I continue to post. Bwa ha ha.

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote. I said "It's only a matter of time before the same happens with the Reform and Conservative movements."

I realize that currently Reform and Conservative are the overwhelming majority of Jews. Including apostates like yourself. However, how long will that last? How long will they be around before they completely assimilate? My guess is that it won't take that long.

The Jews as a people are not following G-d's commandments.

Only those who follow the commandments have existed continuously. Every Jew that identifies as a Jew (and is not a convert) has someone in their lineage within the past 4 or 5 generations that is/was observant.

 

[Autodidact]

None of those things have been verified. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. And there is no positive negative evidence to entirely disprove it.

Can someone translate this for me? Thanks.

 

[Autodidact]

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote. I said "It's only a matter of time before the same happens with the Reform and Conservative movements."

Pardon me if I don't share your confidence in your ability to predict the future, based on your track record in the Torah's predictions so far, which is spotty at best. I mean, the Reform movement didn't even come into existence for thousands of years after that prediction was made, and is increasing if anything, so saying you're sure it's going to flop in the future is hardly confirmation of the prediction that it would be utterly destroyed.

I realize that currently Reform and Conservative are the overwhelming majority of Jews. Including apostates like yourself. However, how long will that last? How long will they be around before they completely assimilate? My guess is that it won't take that long.

O.K. Now you've shown your faith, based on fulfilled predictions, to be utterly baseless, since you pay no attention to whether actual predictions are actually fulfilled. When they're not, as happens more often than not, you just arbitrarily decide that you're sure they'll be fulfilled in future.

I predict your nose will turn into a mushroom..sometime in the future. My success rate is 100%! At predicting things that haven't happened yet.
'btw, speaking of prophecy, how's Tyre doing? Still inhabited?

Only those who follow the commandments have existed continuously. Every Jew that identifies as a Jew (and is not a convert) has someone in their lineage within the past 4 or 5 generations that is/was observant.

And you know this how?

So this destruction of the Jews predicted in the Torah, the one that hasn't happened, you're counting that as a correct prophecy then?

Meanwhile, back in reality, we know that the Torah is not reliable regarding history, and not reliable regarding its predictions, but you base your life, and your willingness to kill other people's babies, on your >50% confidence that it's infallible.