To urge towards disobedience...
God created us without the ability to do "bad"... In my Biblical understanding...
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Is God a "false god"?
- Thread starter gnostic
- Start date
gnostic
The Lost One
If god is perfect, all-knowing and all-powerful, then why did god even bother create humans?
What is the purpose of creating world filled with humans?
Is there a larger purpose of god for creating humans that I don't know about?
For a god to create us (Adam and Eve) with free will then punishing them for making a choice, is hardly what I call a wise or just god. And it is hardly a worthy goal.
The creation (Genesis 1-3) showed that the god is hardly logical...if it is anything, it just showed how insane he is.
What is the purpose of creating world filled with humans?
Is there a larger purpose of god for creating humans that I don't know about?
For a god to create us (Adam and Eve) with free will then punishing them for making a choice, is hardly what I call a wise or just god. And it is hardly a worthy goal.
The creation (Genesis 1-3) showed that the god is hardly logical...if it is anything, it just showed how insane he is.
- He supposedly create a day, which has morning/light and evening/darkness in a day, and yet the sun wasn't even created until the 4th day.
- He supposedly create everything in just 6 days...if you were to take it literally...but we know that's not possible.
- He doesn't want people to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of good and bad, and yet he planted it there in the 1st place.
- He tell them they would die "instantly" if they eat the fruit, but they die.
- He created humans to rule all the animals in this world and want them to populate the world (Genesis 1), and yet (in Genesis 2-3) he stick them in the garden, and this so-called commandment don't even exist.
- He punish them for being bad (disobedience) and yet how are they are supposed to know what good and bad before they even ate the fruit.
- Why would he need to test Abraham's faith, through an almost human sacrifice of Isaac, if he (being all-knowing) already know Abraham's heart?
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings!
Not only is the Baha'i view of God infinitely more positive than what you described, but our view of things like Adam and Eve is quite different, too, as I will demonstrate. I quote from the Baha'i scriptures:
Question. - What is the truth of the story of Adam, and His eating of the fruit of the tree?
Answer. - In the Bible it is written that God put Adam in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and take care of it, and said to Him: Eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of good and evil, for if You eat of that, You will die. Then it is said that God caused Adam to sleep, and He took one of His ribs and created woman in order that she might be His companion. After that it is said the serpent induced the woman to eat of the tree, saying: God has forbidden you to eat of the tree in order that your eyes may not be opened, and that you may not know good from evil. Then Eve ate from the tree and gave unto Adam, Who also ate; their eyes were opened, they found themselves naked, and they hid their bodies with leaves. In consequence of this act they received the reproaches of God. God said to Adam: Hast Thou eaten of the forbidden tree? Adam answered: Eve tempted Me, and I did eat. God then reproved Eve; Eve said: The serpent tempted me, and I did eat. For this the serpent was cursed, and enmity was put between the serpent and Eve, and between their descendants. And God said: The man is become like unto Us, knowing good and evil, and perhaps He will eat of the tree of life and live forever. So God guarded the tree of life.
If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity - that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system, strength and perfection.
We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.
We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.
The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.
The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity - that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.
Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.
When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary were spread abroad, the human realities - that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties - were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, I gave My blood for the life of the world - that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins (that is, the detachment of spirits from the human world, and their attraction to the divine world) in order that souls may arise who will be the very essence of the guidance of mankind, and the manifestations of the perfections of the Supreme Kingdom.
Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.
No; it means what has already been said: Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: Let the dead bury their dead. Though those souls possessed physical life,
yet in His eyes that life was death.
This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.
Salutations be upon you.
(Abdul-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pages 122-126)
Best regards,
Bruce
Not only is the Baha'i view of God infinitely more positive than what you described, but our view of things like Adam and Eve is quite different, too, as I will demonstrate. I quote from the Baha'i scriptures:
Chapter 30
ADAM and EVE
Question. - What is the truth of the story of Adam, and His eating of the fruit of the tree?
Answer. - In the Bible it is written that God put Adam in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and take care of it, and said to Him: Eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of good and evil, for if You eat of that, You will die. Then it is said that God caused Adam to sleep, and He took one of His ribs and created woman in order that she might be His companion. After that it is said the serpent induced the woman to eat of the tree, saying: God has forbidden you to eat of the tree in order that your eyes may not be opened, and that you may not know good from evil. Then Eve ate from the tree and gave unto Adam, Who also ate; their eyes were opened, they found themselves naked, and they hid their bodies with leaves. In consequence of this act they received the reproaches of God. God said to Adam: Hast Thou eaten of the forbidden tree? Adam answered: Eve tempted Me, and I did eat. God then reproved Eve; Eve said: The serpent tempted me, and I did eat. For this the serpent was cursed, and enmity was put between the serpent and Eve, and between their descendants. And God said: The man is become like unto Us, knowing good and evil, and perhaps He will eat of the tree of life and live forever. So God guarded the tree of life.
If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity - that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system, strength and perfection.
We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.
We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.
The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.
The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity - that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.
Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.
When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary were spread abroad, the human realities - that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties - were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, I gave My blood for the life of the world - that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins (that is, the detachment of spirits from the human world, and their attraction to the divine world) in order that souls may arise who will be the very essence of the guidance of mankind, and the manifestations of the perfections of the Supreme Kingdom.
Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.
No; it means what has already been said: Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: Let the dead bury their dead. Though those souls possessed physical life,
yet in His eyes that life was death.
This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.
Salutations be upon you.
(Abdul-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pages 122-126)
Best regards,
Bruce
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Gnostic cosmology is a way to illustrate things
It should not be taken literally
There is no lesser or more pwoerful or less powerful
All things are the pleroma
What we have here is essentially the Gnostic cosmological "battle"
the battle to gain Gnosis. The Demi urge thus then becomes the ego, the spoilt, confused and selfish part of God.
Archonic forces prevent us returing to our true states, one's of divine beings who have Gnosis, who are not trapped in a realm created by the ego (demi urge)
essentially what the Gnostics are saying is that:
the christian and Jewish standard (as there are many versions) view (mainly christian here)of the creation and eden story can be seen a different way.
Now while some Gnostic groups openly stated that the mainstream were fools (particularly sethians, who for example saw the 12 apostles as fools and possibly the archons, archons: rulers, beings that were created by the ego or demi urge to control mankind, think cosmic personifications of greed, anger lust etc etc etc) others did not act in such a harsh way. For example Valentinus was nearly Pope...he could have hardly been a cnadidate if he so openly rejected edenic cosmologies....
Now this different way...
Essentially we are looking at what has become known as a mystical view... the demi urge and the gnostic cosmological view of the eden story is one where mankind becomes seperated from the divine. Here they are seperated from God. Here they are ruled over by a false being who proclaims they are god. Thus the ego, the ego is the false sense of self that says "I am god, I am thr controller, I am in charge" when this is temporary and false.
So the Gnostic story is telling us that Christ and Sophia come before adam and eve, in the form of the serpent. Here they discuss with adam and eve, and reveal that they are under the control of God's ego (the Demi urge)..and to run away from falseness. So man falls...falls from eden, in a quest to regain their true natures, the natures before being under control of the demi urge. A fall in order to gain Gnosis.
Now Gnosis can be related in many ways, a simple way to think of it is, divine contact, experiental knowledge of the divine. Now mysticism has been defined as experince of the divine (Thomas Aquinas). The Gospel of Philip (and other Gnostic texts) allude and make it clear that, Gnosis however goes further. In order to have knowledge or Gnosis one must BECOME that which you are seeking to know.
Thus in order for adam and eve (all mankind) to regain Gnosis, regain knowledge, (Know thyself) they must BECOME that which they seek to gain knowledge of....or God. The Gnostic God (not the demi urge) is the God above God, the unknowable ineffable God. This is the Tao, the way that cannot be spoken of... this is the uneding light of the kabbalists (Ain sof) and this is the Sun symbolised many handed being known to the Egyptians as the Aten.
So really worrying from a Gnostic stance whther the God in the creation/eden story is garbage, wrong etc. is silly....
Gnosticism knows, the map is not the territory.....
leave behind those that need to worry about literalism and history and materialism.
Go beyond such things....and seek Gnosis.
..........................
Let me be worthy of thy bride-chambers that are full of Light.
Jesus Christ, receive me into thy bride-chambers,
thou my Saviour. The body of death which. . . . . .
I have killed it, I have made it keep far from my members . . . . . .
indeed put me to shame. I am a maiden unspotted and holy.
Let me see thy image , my holy Father, which I saw
before the world was created, before the Darkness
presumed to stir up envy against thy Aeons.
Because of it I became a stranger to my kingdom,
I severed its root, I went up victoriously on high.
Purify me, my bridegroom, o Saviour, with thy waters
. . . . . . that are full of grace.
--Manichaean Psalm
It should not be taken literally
There is no lesser or more pwoerful or less powerful
All things are the pleroma
What we have here is essentially the Gnostic cosmological "battle"
the battle to gain Gnosis. The Demi urge thus then becomes the ego, the spoilt, confused and selfish part of God.
Archonic forces prevent us returing to our true states, one's of divine beings who have Gnosis, who are not trapped in a realm created by the ego (demi urge)
essentially what the Gnostics are saying is that:
the christian and Jewish standard (as there are many versions) view (mainly christian here)of the creation and eden story can be seen a different way.
Now while some Gnostic groups openly stated that the mainstream were fools (particularly sethians, who for example saw the 12 apostles as fools and possibly the archons, archons: rulers, beings that were created by the ego or demi urge to control mankind, think cosmic personifications of greed, anger lust etc etc etc) others did not act in such a harsh way. For example Valentinus was nearly Pope...he could have hardly been a cnadidate if he so openly rejected edenic cosmologies....
Now this different way...
Essentially we are looking at what has become known as a mystical view... the demi urge and the gnostic cosmological view of the eden story is one where mankind becomes seperated from the divine. Here they are seperated from God. Here they are ruled over by a false being who proclaims they are god. Thus the ego, the ego is the false sense of self that says "I am god, I am thr controller, I am in charge" when this is temporary and false.
So the Gnostic story is telling us that Christ and Sophia come before adam and eve, in the form of the serpent. Here they discuss with adam and eve, and reveal that they are under the control of God's ego (the Demi urge)..and to run away from falseness. So man falls...falls from eden, in a quest to regain their true natures, the natures before being under control of the demi urge. A fall in order to gain Gnosis.
Now Gnosis can be related in many ways, a simple way to think of it is, divine contact, experiental knowledge of the divine. Now mysticism has been defined as experince of the divine (Thomas Aquinas). The Gospel of Philip (and other Gnostic texts) allude and make it clear that, Gnosis however goes further. In order to have knowledge or Gnosis one must BECOME that which you are seeking to know.
Thus in order for adam and eve (all mankind) to regain Gnosis, regain knowledge, (Know thyself) they must BECOME that which they seek to gain knowledge of....or God. The Gnostic God (not the demi urge) is the God above God, the unknowable ineffable God. This is the Tao, the way that cannot be spoken of... this is the uneding light of the kabbalists (Ain sof) and this is the Sun symbolised many handed being known to the Egyptians as the Aten.
So really worrying from a Gnostic stance whther the God in the creation/eden story is garbage, wrong etc. is silly....
Gnosticism knows, the map is not the territory.....
leave behind those that need to worry about literalism and history and materialism.
Go beyond such things....and seek Gnosis.
..........................
Let me be worthy of thy bride-chambers that are full of Light.
Jesus Christ, receive me into thy bride-chambers,
thou my Saviour. The body of death which. . . . . .
I have killed it, I have made it keep far from my members . . . . . .
indeed put me to shame. I am a maiden unspotted and holy.
Let me see thy image , my holy Father, which I saw
before the world was created, before the Darkness
presumed to stir up envy against thy Aeons.
Because of it I became a stranger to my kingdom,
I severed its root, I went up victoriously on high.
Purify me, my bridegroom, o Saviour, with thy waters
. . . . . . that are full of grace.
--Manichaean Psalm
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