Is God an egoist?

[frg001]

I'm sure this has been done to death but...

Imagine I had the power to create a race of beings. Then I gave that race of beings a free-thinking mind. Then I let them use those minds to conjour up hundreds of words for me and hundreds of ways to worship me.

Then I created a place of beauty, and a place of abject misery, and when these creatures reached the end of the plane of existance that I had given them, I would re-create them, to spend the rest of eternity in one of these two new worlds.
The criteria I would use, would be 'Did this creature worship me enough? Did this creature give it's life in order to spread word of me?' - And if the answer is yes, then I'll let this one live the rest of eternity in bliss. If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

What would that make me. I think it be all of these things...
An egoist
A tyrant
Evil
And none of these things
Loving
Compassionate
Caring

I think, if the god of the bible, or the Quran exist they would fall into this category.
What are your thoughts please?

 

[may]

If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

quote] well for me the God that i worship does not teach this , i am glad to say ...its amazing how people think up these things

 

[frg001]

If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

well for me the God that i worship does not teach this , i am glad to say ...its amazing how people think up these things

That's good that your god doesn't think this way, but some people's do.

 

[mehrosh]

I'm sure this has been done to death but...

Imagine I had the power to create a race of beings. Then I gave that race of beings a free-thinking mind. Then I let them use those minds to conjour up hundreds of words for me and hundreds of ways to worship me.

Then I created a place of beauty, and a place of abject misery, and when these creatures reached the end of the plane of existance that I had given them, I would re-create them, to spend the rest of eternity in one of these two new worlds.
The criteria I would use, would be 'Did this creature worship me enough? Did this creature give it's life in order to spread word of me?' - And if the answer is yes, then I'll let this one live the rest of eternity in bliss. If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

What would that make me. I think it be all of these things...
An egoist
A tyrant
Evil
And none of these things
Loving
Compassionate
Caring

I think, if the god of the bible, or the Quran exist they would fall into this category.
What are your thoughts please?

Dear frg001,

I am pleased to see this thread of yours, It's good to learn from each other,

Yes, I agree with you that if God is like the description you have given He will certainly fall in this category.

Now as you have mentioned about the Bible and the Quran, being I muslim, I will present my thougths as per my beliefs....

Imagine I had the power to create a race of beings. Then I gave that race of beings a free-thinking mind. Then I let them use those minds to conjour up hundreds of words for me and hundreds of ways to worship me.

Then I created a place of beauty, and a place of abject misery, and when these creatures reached the end of the plane of existance that I had given them, I would re-create them, to spend the rest of eternity in one of these two new worlds.
The criteria I would use, would be 'Did this creature worship me enough? Did this creature give it's life in order to spread word of me?' - And if the answer is yes, then I'll let this one live the rest of eternity in bliss. If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

Wide imagination....WOW...

Now let me apply this to God, imagine God created us, "Then I gave that race of beings a free-thinking mind" correction: Gave us free choice, and laid down a path, chose whatever you like and I will reward you as per that.

He created Hell, and Paradise, as reward or punishment. The creatures completed the term God had given them, and then He would rise them up again NOT RE CREATE, but resurrect, That is, we muslims believe that we were first created, as souls, and then put into cold storage (a word I am using) then God created the first man with clay, and his offsprings from him, and breathed their souls into them. That is we are alive from the day we were created, then put to rest, then given life but this time the life consisted of our soul and body made of earth, then we will die, we are not actually dead but just traveling to another world, another dimension, and the so called death is the phase of second rest. Then again we will be given life to eternity.

Here we can quote this

You have no begining, and I have no End
(the poet, i refering to God)

The criteria I would use, would be 'Did this creature worship me enough? Did this creature give it's life in order to spread word of me?' - And if the answer is yes, then I'll let this one live the rest of eternity in bliss. If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

Correction: The criteria to enter Jannah (paradise is given in the Quran)

By the token of time, verily man is in lose, except those who

1. Have faith

2. Do righteous deeds

3. Enjoin God

4. And tell people to be patient

Now I don't think this is a very difficult thing to do, If he made you, gave you life when you were nothing, transformed you from drops of semen to a baby, child, youth, and then adult, gave you to eat and drink, gave you children so on....

Can't you just do these four for Him? why? why is man so selfish?

WHY DOES HE ASKS, "HOW CAN I BELIEVE IN GOD WHEN I CAN'T SEE HIM, FEEL HIM, TOUCH HIM, TASTE HIM. "

I WILL ASK HIM, "WHEN YOU SEE A PAINTING AND HAVE NEVER MET IT'S PAINTER JUST HEARD ABOUT HIM, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS PAINTING WAS PAINTED WITHOUT A PAINTER BY CHANCE, BECAUSE YOU NEVER SAW, TOUCHED, FELT, AND TASTED IT'S PAINTER"

He is the most merciful, no one can be as forgiving as HIM,
He says

"O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind.

O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you.

O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

How great is His forgivness and How great is His love. Even if all the human being become pious and worship Him alone like the most pious man, they can not do any good to Him.

When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.

SUCH A GOD IS NOT LOVING, COMPASSIONATE OR CARING.....THESE WORDS ARE TOO SMALL TO DEFINE HIM.

ONE OF HIS NAME IS WADOOD, THIS CANNOT BE TRANSLATED IN ENGLISH, BUT INTO SANSKRIT AND THE MEANING IS "SNEH" AND THAT MEANS LOVE WITHOUT BOUNDS, THAT ONE CAN GIVE AWAY EVERYTHING FOR THE PERSON HE LOVES, UNDER THIS WORD. WHICH IS FAR MORE THAN THE LOVE OF A MOTHER

Once my beloved Prophet was with his companions and he saw a women looking for a child, as soon as she saw him, she grabed him to herself and couldn't stop her tears after meeting her child when she had lost the hope. On this the Prophet saas asked his companions "Can this mother throw her son into fire", the companions said "no, until she has the power to save him", on this the Prophet replied, "ALLAH is more merciful to His slaves"

Why is man so ignorant of his creator, why does he betray himself by saying that there is no creator, all this is by chance. Where is you hand, on the mouse or the keyboard, does this have a creator, ofcourse, it would not be here if it didn't then how can you think that you, YOU, such a remarkable being can be here without purpose without a creator.


There are more connections of the brain than there are atoms in this UNIVERSE, all this by chance,

Come On...???

 

[Light]

Dear frg001,

I am pleased to see this thread of yours, It's good to learn from each other,

Yes, I agree with you that if God is like the description you have given He will certainly fall in this category.

Now as you have mentioned about the Bible and the Quran, being I muslim, I will present my thougths as per my beliefs....


Wide imagination....WOW...

Now let me apply this to God, imagine God created us, "Then I gave that race of beings a free-thinking mind" correction: Gave us free choice, and laid down a path, chose whatever you like and I will reward you as per that.

He created Hell, and Paradise, as reward or punishment. The creatures completed the term God had given them, and then He would rise them up again NOT RE CREATE, but resurrect, That is, we muslims believe that we were first created, as souls, and then put into cold storage (a word I am using) then God created the first man with clay, and his offsprings from him, and breathed their souls into them. That is we are alive from the day we were created, then put to rest, then given life but this time the life consisted of our soul and body made of earth, then we will die, we are not actually dead but just traveling to another world, another dimension, and the so called death is the phase of second rest. Then again we will be given life to eternity.

Here we can quote this

You have no begining, and I have no End
(the poet, i refering to God)

The criteria I would use, would be 'Did this creature worship me enough? Did this creature give it's life in order to spread word of me?' - And if the answer is yes, then I'll let this one live the rest of eternity in bliss. If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

Correction: The criteria to enter Jannah (paradise is given in the Quran)

By the token of time, verily man is in lose, except those who

1. Have faith

2. Do righteous deeds

3. Enjoin God

4. And tell people to be patient

Now I don't think this is a very difficult thing to do, If he made you, gave you life when you were nothing, transformed you from drops of semen to a baby, child, youth, and then adult, gave you to eat and drink, gave you children so on....

Can't you just do these four for Him? why? why is man so selfish?

WHY DOES HE ASKS, "HOW CAN I BELIEVE IN GOD WHEN I CAN'T SEE HIM, FEEL HIM, TOUCH HIM, TASTE HIM. "

I WILL ASK HIM, "WHEN YOU SEE A PAINTING AND HAVE NEVER MET IT'S PAINTER JUST HEARD ABOUT HIM, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS PAINTING WAS PAINTED WITHOUT A PAINTER BY CHANCE, BECAUSE YOU NEVER SAW, TOUCHED, FELT, AND TASTED IT'S PAINTER"

He is the most merciful, no one can be as forgiving as HIM,
He says

"O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind.

O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you.

O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

How great is His forgivness and How great is His love. Even if all the human being become pious and worship Him alone like the most pious man, they can not do any good to Him.

When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: My mercy prevails over my wrath.

SUCH A GOD IS NOT LOVING, COMPASSIONATE OR CARING.....THESE WORDS ARE TOO SMALL TO DEFINE HIM.

ONE OF HIS NAME IS WADOOD, THIS CANNOT BE TRANSLATED IN ENGLISH, BUT INTO SANSKRIT AND THE MEANING IS "SNEH" AND THAT MEANS LOVE WITHOUT BOUNDS, THAT ONE CAN GIVE AWAY EVERYTHING FOR THE PERSON HE LOVES, UNDER THIS WORD. WHICH IS FAR MORE THAN THE LOVE OF A MOTHER

Once my beloved Prophet was with his companions and he saw a women looking for a child, as soon as she saw him, she grabed him to herself and couldn't stop her tears after meeting her child when she had lost the hope. On this the Prophet saas asked his companions "Can this mother throw her son into fire", the companions said "no, until she has the power to save him", on this the Prophet replied, "ALLAH is more merciful to His slaves"

Why is man so ignorant of his creator, why does he betray himself by saying that there is no creator, all this is by chance. Where is you hand, on the mouse or the keyboard, does this have a creator, ofcourse, it would not be here if it didn't then how can you think that you, YOU, such a remarkable being can be here without purpose without a creator.


There are more connections of the brain than there are atoms in this UNIVERSE, all this by chance,

Come On...???

masha'Allah, well said! :clap

 

[sojourner]

I'm sure this has been done to death but...

Imagine I had the power to create a race of beings. Then I gave that race of beings a free-thinking mind. Then I let them use those minds to conjour up hundreds of words for me and hundreds of ways to worship me.

Then I created a place of beauty, and a place of abject misery, and when these creatures reached the end of the plane of existance that I had given them, I would re-create them, to spend the rest of eternity in one of these two new worlds.
The criteria I would use, would be 'Did this creature worship me enough? Did this creature give it's life in order to spread word of me?' - And if the answer is yes, then I'll let this one live the rest of eternity in bliss. If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

What would that make me. I think it be all of these things...
An egoist
A tyrant
Evil
And none of these things
Loving
Compassionate
Caring

I think, if the god of the bible, or the Quran exist they would fall into this category.
What are your thoughts please?

Imagine I had the power to create a race of beings. Then I gave that race the power and ability to think for themselves, freeing them from a puppet-like existence. I gave them intelligence and sentience. In wondrous variety, they express their thoughts about their beginnings, painting a marvelous picture of creation and their place in it. They relate to creation and continue to envision themselves as being created and re-created in marvelously different and surprising ways.

I created a way, when they had gone astray from my love for them, to be with me in relationship, and when they came to the end of their physical lives, because I love them so, I would draw them to myself. I would re-create them and give them wondrous new bodies that never grew old or ill, and they would live together with me in eternity, because I love them so. The criteria I would use for judging their actions on earth is simply...love. I made them, I gave them life, I want to be with them for ever. If they became separated from me, I would love them back into my arms. I would do whatever I had to do to for as long as it took to show them that I both love them and accept them unconditionally.

What would that make me? Above all, I think, it would make me:
loving,
kind,
compassionate,
gentle,
merciful,
gracious,
patient.

I think that people tend to invent a picture of God out of their own experiences and perspective. I'm sorry that you picture God in the terms you describe. No wonder you're an atheist. I would be, too!

I truly think that God is as I have described God. Maybe you should stop listening to so many judgmental, angry, religious people and simply study on the concept that God is love.

 

[frg001]

I'm sorry that you picture God in the terms you describe. No wonder you're an atheist. I would be, too!

heh. I don't picture any god. I believe 100% that he is a man-made idea. I'm just trying, (maybe badly) to convey what some people believe.

 

[frg001]

Now let me apply this to God, imagine God created us, "Then I gave that race of beings a free-thinking mind" correction: Gave us free choice, and laid down a path, chose whatever you like and I will reward you as per that.

Ok - But let's put it this way, there has been no god letting me at least know that he's created me...How am I supposed to know? And please do not say, that it is layed down in the Quran, because I do not believe that this is the words of god.(Obviously )

He created Hell, and Paradise, as reward or punishment.

This is what I mean. How can anyone send his own to an eternal hell, as punishment - Seems incredibly harsh. And as a muslim, is it not true that all non-muslims will go there? Please correct me if I'm wrong (It has been known).

There are more connections of the brain than there are atoms in this UNIVERSE, all this by chance,

Come On...???

Hmm , you see to me I think the idea of a creator is about the least likely. The universe is beyond vast, possibly infinite. In a (near) infinite universe, then anything is possible...Including my brain

 

[jewscout]

1)i don't believe hell or eternal damnation exist
2)i believe G-d grades on a curve, judging relatively, not absolutely
3) i don't believe the purpose of our existance on this planet is to build up points to cash in when the games over...

 

[Sunstone]

1)i don't believe the purpose of our existance on this planet is to build up points to cash in when the games over...

Do you mean to imply, Huff, that God is not going to honor our frubal count when we die? If so, what point to life is left for us?

 

[jewscout]

Do you mean to imply, Huff, that God is not going to honor our frubal count when we die? If so, what point to life is left for us?

no He won't use our frubal count, but He will judge us on how we got those frubals:bounce

 

[mehrosh]

Ok - But let's put it this way, there has been no god letting me at least know that he's created me...How am I supposed to know? And please do not say, that it is layed down in the Quran, because I do not believe that this is the words of god.(Obviously )

I know that you don't believe in the Quran, but if I am to explain that to you, I will first explain to you that how is Quran the word of God?

He didn't lay it down only in the Quran, He had send many messengers to the Earth, all of them gave the same message "Believe in ONe God and Worship Him alone without any partners" He has send many books, the Bible and the Quran are just some of them.

Quran is the last book it's infact not a book but lives in the breasts of 10 million people, it has no contradictions, and is the pure word of God. It confirms the previous scriptures like the Bible, Torah, Paslms and the messengers.

The Quran doesn't tells you to believe in it blindly, like most religions do, the more it is nonsense the more it is religion. The Quran tells it's reader to ponder over it, take out mistakes from it. "if it was from someone other than God, it would have had CONTRADICTIONS" to date no one has been succesfull, and Inshallah will never be. It also puts itself to fasilitation tests. We can discuss all the tests in the Quran, are you ready to accept This One God, if during our disscussion you feel that what I am saying makes sense and is something good.???

This is what I mean. How can anyone send his own to an eternal hell, as punishment - Seems incredibly harsh. And as a muslim, is it not true that all non-muslims will go there? Please correct me if I'm wrong (It has been known).

Yes, anyone who says "There is No God but God" will enter paradise (hadith) and God will forgive any sin, but will not forgive associating of partners with him.
But you don't believe in the Quran, so you don't need to get into this, because the unbelieve in Quran, unvalidates belief in hell and paradise.

Hmm , you see to me I think the idea of a creator is about the least likely. The universe is beyond vast, possibly infinite. In a (near) infinite universe, then anything is possible...Including my brain

Exactly, I gave you the example of a mouse or keyboard, when a simple thing like this cannot be there without a chance, how can such a vast universe be there without a creator.

I will be more than honoured, if you visit this page, you might find something good to read, give it a thought dear.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bigbang/

Nice reading...have a good day,

Regards,
Mehrosh

 

[frg001]

1)i don't believe hell or eternal damnation exist

handy.. but fair enough. makes more sense to me.

2)i believe G-d grades on a curve, judging relatively, not absolutely

First, why do some people put g-d rather than plain god?

And judging relitively? So if you're almost perfect, but everyone else is slightly more so , you're in trouble? Seems harsh. But then if you don't believe in hell, whats the punishment if you don't make the grade?

3) i don't believe the purpose of our existance on this planet is to build up points to cash in when the games over...

Nor do I strangely enough. I believe their is no purpose. We're a fluke.

 

[jewscout]

First, why do some people put g-d rather than plain god?

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm#Writing

And judging relitively? So if you're almost perfect, but everyone else is slightly more so , you're in trouble? Seems harsh. But then if you don't believe in hell, whats the punishment if you don't make the grade?

what i mean is, there is no template of having to fulfill A, B, C that we are graded on our actions and our intent.
honestly though this is speculation as i do not know what will truely be considered better or worse in the eyes of HaShem, i can only pray that i'm doing what is right.

as far as punishment...first Judaism doesn't have a whole lot on the afterlife so most of this is speculation as well. It is usually believed that only a handful of the truely righteous go straight to paradise, the rest of us who fall in the middle are "purified", think of it as detention, where we are cleansed of our shortcomings in life and then permitted to enter the presense of G-d. But again this is pure speculation and the focus of Judaism is not the afterlife or worrying about it.

Nor do I strangely enough. I believe their is no purpose. We're a fluke.

with all due respect, that's kind of depressing.

 

[frg001]

I know that you don't believe in the Quran, but if I am to explain that to you, I will first explain to you that how is Quran the word of God?

He didn't lay it down only in the Quran, He had send many messengers to the Earth, all of them gave the same message "Believe in ONe God and Worship Him alone without any partners" He has send many books, the Bible and the Quran are just some of them.

Quran is the last book it's infact not a book but lives in the breasts of 10 million people, it has no contradictions, and is the pure word of God. It confirms the previous scriptures like the Bible, Torah, Paslms and the messengers.

I believe that you believe this.
Ok here's one for you and no offence is meant.
If I had taken you as a newborn, and placed you with a Jewish family, you would almost certainly now be a jew. You would have been brought up in their ways, with their beliefs. You would not accept the Quran.
I was brought up, and was told about christianity. I chose not to believe it. If I had been taken as a baby and placed in a very religious muslim family as yours, I almost certainly would be a muslim now.
The reason(I believe) anyone is what they are, is simply indoctination. What we are told to be the truth, and drummed into us... A form of brain washing, when we are at our most impressionable - A child.

The Quran doesn't tells you to believe in it blindly, like most religions do, the more it is nonsense the more it is religion. The Quran tells it's reader to ponder over it, take out mistakes from it. "if it was from someone other than God, it would have had CONTRADICTIONS" to date no one has been succesfull, and Inshallah will never be. It also puts itself to fasilitation tests. We can discuss all the tests in the Quran, are you ready to accept This One God, if during our disscussion you feel that what I am saying makes sense and is something good.???

Sorry to dissapoint, but I will never believe what you do. I have thought about my existance in this universe, and have come to my own conclusions, based on scientific fact, and theory. I do however believe that you are happy in your beliefs, and that is good.

Yes, anyone who says "There is No God but God" will enter paradise (hadith) and God will forgive any sin, but will not forgive associating of partners with him.
But you don't believe in the Quran, so you don't need to get into this, because the unbelieve in Quran, unvalidates belief in hell and paradise.

I agree. I cannot go to hell myself, as it doesn't exist.

Exactly, I gave you the example of a mouse or keyboard, when a simple thing like this cannot be there without a chance, how can such a vast universe be there without a creator.

We evolved. From very simple organisms over millenia

I will be more than honoured, if you visit this page, you might find something good to read, give it a thought dear.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/bigbang/

Nice reading...have a good day,

Regards,
Mehrosh

I will...better get some work done now tho
Cheers,
frog.

 

[sojourner]

heh. I don't picture any god. I believe 100% that he is a man-made idea. I'm just trying, (maybe badly) to convey what some people believe.

I should have said I'm sorry that you see others picturing God this way.

 

[frg001]

Nor do I strangely enough. I believe their is no purpose. We're a fluke.

with all due respect, that's kind of depressing.

And with respect reciprocated, this is why life is so wonderful. We should take what we have and rejoice, be awed at the amazingness that we have this one chance of awareness, and try to enjoy life to the full, and make our lives as happy as possible.

 

[frg001]

I should have said I'm sorry that you see others picturing God this way.

It was based on a previous story I brought up about a born again christian telling me that unless I accepted jesus into my heart, it doesn't matter what else I do, however good a person I am, then I am going to hell.

 

[jewscout]

And with respect reciprocated, this is why life is so wonderful. We should take what we have and rejoice, be awed at the amazingness that we have this one chance of awareness, and try to enjoy life to the full, and make our lives as happy as possible.

i could not agree more.:clap

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm sure this has been done to death but...

Imagine I had the power to create a race of beings. Then I gave that race of beings a free-thinking mind. Then I let them use those minds to conjour up hundreds of words for me and hundreds of ways to worship me.

Then I created a place of beauty, and a place of abject misery, and when these creatures reached the end of the plane of existance that I had given them, I would re-create them, to spend the rest of eternity in one of these two new worlds.
The criteria I would use, would be 'Did this creature worship me enough? Did this creature give it's life in order to spread word of me?' - And if the answer is yes, then I'll let this one live the rest of eternity in bliss. If however, this creature denied me, did not worship me, then I'll make this one suffer...forever...

What would that make me. I think it be all of these things...
An egoist
A tyrant
Evil
And none of these things
Loving
Compassionate
Caring

I think, if the god of the bible, or the Quran exist they would fall into this category.
What are your thoughts please?

One thing seems certain to me. Someone in the OP is egocentric, and it's not the Abrahamic God. Look at how many first person pronouns are in the OP....