Is God By Necessity An Atheist?

[Luminous]

It is indeed, but there is some real content within the humor.

The question of whether god would be an atheist is obviously silly. But the subtle sub-question of whether omniscience can prove that it is indeed omniscient is a legitimate philosophical question.

well, the question can be taken in reverse as an example:
can unomniscience prove that it is indeed unomniscient.
In example, can an agnostic proove (to themselves) that they are agnostic?
seems like an obviously silly question, ofcourse omniscience can prove that it is indeed omniscient.

 

[Penumbra]

well, the question can be taken in reverse as an example:
can unomniscience prove that it is indeed unomniscient.
In example, can an agnostic proove (to themselves) that they are agnostic?

All I have to do is identify one thing I don't know, and I've proved that I lack omniscience.

seems like an obviously silly question, ofcourse omniscience can prove that it is indeed omniscient.

Not necessarily. By definition it basically is, but in practice, does the definition truly make sense?

Similar to how omnipotence can sometimes be taken to illogical extremes (square circles, etc), it may be the same for omniscience. If a being finds that it knows everything, in the sense that there is nothing that it is aware of that it does not know, can it prove to itself that there aren't things outside of its perception that it doesn't know about? It's the ultimate example of proving a negative.

 

[Sunstone]

i think it just scares you.

I'm always scared. Everything scares me. In fact, I live only for the thrill of being scared. Especially by questions about god posted on internet forums. You can't get more scary than that.

 

[Sunstone]

It is indeed, but there is some real content within the humor.

The question of whether god would be an atheist is obviously silly. But the subtle sub-question of whether omniscience can prove that it is indeed omniscient is a legitimate philosophical question.

Fair enough. But where to put this thread if it's half joke and half legitimate?

 

[Penumbra]

Fair enough. But where to put this thread if it's half joke and half legitimate?

Well, I think that description could apply to a lot of threads in the serious sections too.

 

[Penumbra]

Dunno. Maybe I could make a thread about whether omniscience can prove its own omniscience, but I bet it would be one of those threads that gets few replies.

 

[Sunstone]

Well, I think that description could apply to a lot of threads in the serious sections too.

OK. I'll move it to a serious section, since most people want to treat it seriously.

 

[Penumbra]

OK. I'll move it to a serious section, since most people want to treat it seriously.

I think I have the flaw of treating everything seriously. hehe

 

[Sunstone]

I think I have the flaw of treating everything seriously. hehe

I don't know, maybe. But in your defense, you do have a pronounced knack for treating things brilliantly if and when you do treat them seriously.

 

[Willamena]

It is argued in some circles that god is by necessity an atheist. For, in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it. Otherwise, your knowledge of a thing is subjective. Yet, god is infinite, which means god does not stand outside and apart from anything (or else god would be limited, which is opposed to god being infinite). Therefore, since god cannot stand outside and apart from anything, god must not be objective about god, and consequently god must be an atheist about god's own existence. Is this argument conclusive? If so, why? If not why not?

Out of curiosity, what circles?

 

[Sunstone]

Out of curiosity, what circles?

I swear I overheard the question being expounded upon by two theologians in my local bar near closing time.

 

[Falvlun]

I think I probably know myself better than I know anything external to me. So, I assume God would be able to know himself. But it is a good point that God may not know himself to be a god or consider himself to be God.

 

[Luminous]

I'm always scared. Everything scares me. In fact, I live only for the thrill of being scared. Especially by questions about god posted on internet forums. You can't get more scary than that.

No. I meant the possibility that "God" is an "Atheist." which is possible, by certain definitions.

 

[Luminous]

I swear I overheard the question being expounded upon by two theologians in my local bar near closing time.

theologians?

 

[Luminous]

All I have to do is identify one thing I don't know, and I've proved that I lack omniscience.

"identify one thing you don't know"? but, if you don't know it, how can you identify it?

Not necessarily. By definition it basically is, but in practice, does the definition truly make sense?

Well if it is all knowing, then it does know that it knows, since it knows everything, and it knowing everything is part of the facts of reality. if it doesn't know that it is all-knowing, then it is not all-knowing. Most-knowing would be a different question, how can you know you are most-knowing if you are not all-knowing? how can you be all-knowing if you are not all-powerful? those are less silly questions.

Similar to how omnipotence can sometimes be taken to illogical extremes (square circles, etc), it may be the same for omniscience. If a being finds that it knows everything, in the sense that there is nothing that it is aware of that it does not know, can it prove to itself that there aren't things outside of its perception that it doesn't know about? It's the ultimate example of proving a negative.

if something is all-powerful it should be capable of paradoxs and of not being all-power while not being all-powerful, a square circle would be easy for something with every power, such as the one to understand and create square circles. after all, an infinitly large square and an infinatly large circle are the same thing, are they not?
In the sense that you suggest "all-knowing" doesn't mean all-knowing, it means all-understanding of the things which it is aware of. this sort of definition means it is not all-knowing, since it is not all-aware.

 

[uu_sage]

Since God is the creator and sustainer of all humankind, God embodies the diversity of the creation. God is beyond all human labeling and is beyond all religion.

 

[atanu]

It is argued in some circles that god is by necessity an atheist. For, in order to know something objectively, you must stand outside and apart from it. Otherwise, your knowledge of a thing is subjective. Yet, god is infinite, which means god does not stand outside and apart from anything (or else god would be limited, which is opposed to god being infinite). Therefore, since god cannot stand outside and apart from anything, god must not be objective about god, and consequently god must be an atheist about god's own existence. Is this argument conclusive? If so, why? If not why not?

Wow. The air which is inside a balloon is inside or outside?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The question of whether god would be an atheist is obviously silly. But the subtle sub-question of whether omniscience can prove that it is indeed omniscient is a legitimate philosophical question.

Interesting. Since there may conceivably exist both known unknowns and unknown unknowns (and I know people make fun of Rumsfeld for saying this, but he did have a point), how would you go about proving that you do not have any unknown unknowns?

Fair enough. But where to put this thread if it's half joke and half legitimate?

We could move all the odd-numbered posts to jokes and leave the other half here.

theologians?

They were discussing eschatology and theodicy.

 

[Luminous]

Wow. The air which is inside a balloon is inside or outside?

Not to burst your bubble but, the air which is inside a ballon is diffusing into the outside through microscopic pores within the plastic wall..

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not to burst your bubble but, the air which is inside a ballon is diffusing into the outside through microscopic pores within the plastic wall..

I have a Klein balloon. We're all inside it. And outside it.