Explain?
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Is God Evil?
- Thread starter Straw Dog
- Start date
Explain?
There's no such thing as good and evil. These are human constructs. What anybody considers good or bad is entirely subjective.
Are you trying to say that good and evil don't exist outside the human mind? If that is the case then I probably agree with you.
Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying.
As far as the quran goes, i'd like you to present the verses you're referring to, because i'm pretty sure you misunderstood at least some of them.
As for god himself committing murder or rape, i don't know how do you explain that. Could you elaborate on that?
Of course not.
Yes it does. However, just to begin with, i'm pretty sure when you're applying that on life, you haven't putted the afterlife into consideration. The concept of the afterlife explains a lot of the injustices that happen in this life.
The evil is from man? But God created man...
MurphtheSurf
Active Member
The Talmud is commentary not inspired as the Hebrew scriptures are.
My personal viewpoint of the Talmud is this;
It was the Jewish form of the New Testament written by rabbis who came to realize they missd the boat of the Messiah's coming and going, but didn't want to admit it.
From one of my sources;
What makes the Talmud unique among Jewish writings? Why was it written? How has it come to have such an impact on Judaism? Does it have meaning for the non-Jewish world?
During the 150 years following the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 C.E., academies of rabbinic sages throughout Israel urgently sought a new basis for maintaining Jewish practice. They debated and consolidated various traditions of their oral law. Building on this foundation, they set new limits and requirements for Judaism, giving direction for a day-to-day life of holiness without a temple. This new spiritual framework was outlined in the Mishnah, compiled by Judah ha-Nasi by the beginning of the third century C.E.
During the 150 years following the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 C.E., academies of rabbinic sages throughout Israel urgently sought a new basis for maintaining Jewish practice. They debated and consolidated various traditions of their oral law. Building on this foundation, they set new limits and requirements for Judaism, giving direction for a day-to-day life of holiness without a temple. This new spiritual framework was outlined in the Mishnah, compiled by Judah ha-Nasi by the beginning of the third century C.E.
There is much more that I can post on request.
And what source would that be?
MurphtheSurf
Active Member
Okay, it was by a Rabbi. Good, that makes it credible. ^_^
Still, doesn't quite answer the question of where the aphorism I quoted came from.
The Qur'an supports many sections of the Bible. This includes all the genocides committed by God and the Jews. For example, he drowned the entire world in a flood. Would a loving father drown his disobedient children? Furthermore, he commands the Jews to "take wives" of the virgins of conquered lands. I'm pretty sure they didn't all go willingly.
Much of the Qur'an is about how God purposely blinds people so they can't see the (supposed) truth of Islam and that he is going to send the majority of people to burn forever in hell simply because they're not Muslims. Every few verses is filled with how nonbelievers, Christians, and Jews are going to hell. This is more unjust than anything else. How can you punish someone for their beliefs? Especially when they're blinded and have no chance of believing correctly (according to Muslims)?
This is evil.
ATAT
Member
One possibility is that there is a God who does not want us to follow human beings claiming to hear the voice of God.
Maybe God is testing us to see if we'll choose the good over being afraid of him.
In other words, if God tells us to kill a child (or a human being claims God told him to tell us) as in Numbers 31 and elsewhere, then either directly (God really told us) or indirectly (God made human beings who claim he told them to tell us)
... one way or the other, we're getting instruction from God, or his human agents to kill a child.
I believe the correct answer to such a command is, 'Respectfully, I can not.'
Look at it this way, God makes diseases, we all agree we should save the children from diseases WHICH GOD MADE. Therefore, we are morally obligated, by God, to oppose God when God comes to kill innocents, such as children.
Think about it, God really really tells me to kill a child.
Why would I do it?
To get rewards in heaven? That's a stupid reason.
To avoid pain? Well, I admit I might lose free will when the blow torches are applied to my toes, but that just proves I'll do anything to avoid pain when faced with it.
But we can agree that it's NOT the right thing to do, especially if pain is not a factor.
To get closer to God?
Really? We should kill an innocent child to get closer to God?
Why would we do that? That's self-serving. It's also absurd.
But let's say it's really the case, I need to kill Midianite children in Numbers 31 to get closer to God.
Think about it, would you *really* want to be around a God like that?
Just trying to picture murdering innocent children get close to God... that's so absurd as to be an insult to God.
I think maybe it's all just a test, if I'm willing to murder innocent children to get close to God, then I failed the real test, which was to turn down heaven and do the right thing.
God told Moses to let God proceed to destroy the Jewish people and make a nation out of Moses.
Moses was right to intervene and argue against destroying a whole nation.
So, by example, the bible tells us to do the right thing, even against the command of God, on the rare case where the command is evil by any standard.
God told Abraham to sacrifice his innocent child, Isaac.
Perhaps if Abraham had said, "I can not, I was not made to murder, as proven by Cain being punished." All the goodness of the bible would have come about, minus the problems.
Maybe God is testing us to see if we'll choose the good over being afraid of him.
In other words, if God tells us to kill a child (or a human being claims God told him to tell us) as in Numbers 31 and elsewhere, then either directly (God really told us) or indirectly (God made human beings who claim he told them to tell us)
... one way or the other, we're getting instruction from God, or his human agents to kill a child.
I believe the correct answer to such a command is, 'Respectfully, I can not.'
Look at it this way, God makes diseases, we all agree we should save the children from diseases WHICH GOD MADE. Therefore, we are morally obligated, by God, to oppose God when God comes to kill innocents, such as children.
Think about it, God really really tells me to kill a child.
Why would I do it?
To get rewards in heaven? That's a stupid reason.
To avoid pain? Well, I admit I might lose free will when the blow torches are applied to my toes, but that just proves I'll do anything to avoid pain when faced with it.
But we can agree that it's NOT the right thing to do, especially if pain is not a factor.
To get closer to God?
Really? We should kill an innocent child to get closer to God?
Why would we do that? That's self-serving. It's also absurd.
But let's say it's really the case, I need to kill Midianite children in Numbers 31 to get closer to God.
Think about it, would you *really* want to be around a God like that?
Just trying to picture murdering innocent children get close to God... that's so absurd as to be an insult to God.
I think maybe it's all just a test, if I'm willing to murder innocent children to get close to God, then I failed the real test, which was to turn down heaven and do the right thing.
God told Moses to let God proceed to destroy the Jewish people and make a nation out of Moses.
Moses was right to intervene and argue against destroying a whole nation.
So, by example, the bible tells us to do the right thing, even against the command of God, on the rare case where the command is evil by any standard.
God told Abraham to sacrifice his innocent child, Isaac.
Perhaps if Abraham had said, "I can not, I was not made to murder, as proven by Cain being punished." All the goodness of the bible would have come about, minus the problems.
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God, can not commit murder. God created life, and he takes it. Every human that dies, dies with God's approval. The flood is not any more special than any other incident. Everybody's death is up to god.
Also, humans suffering in life does not indicate evil, because you're not putting in mind what is life, and the concept of the afterlife. We will be judged, for what we do. And, the difference in our lives will be put in mind. Each suffering that a human being endures, is going to be dearly compensated for him in the afterlife. Its all part of life and how it is.
I'm not sure about this part, i might be forgetting something. God commands the jews in the Quran?
Its not that simple at all. I think you misunderstood the verse you have in mind about god blinding people. It doesn't mean he will stop people from seeing the truth, but rather that he will not help those who meet certain criteria.
The Quran warns, it must do, since the outcome is so dangerous. If you know someone is headed for a terrible ending, you have a duty to warn him.
Also, you do not go to hell just because you're not a muslim, and you do not go to heaven because you're a muslim. Its more complicated. Its not about the label, its about certain requirements to go to heaven, and you're told these requirements.
And not every non-muslim is going to hell, and not every muslim is going to heaven.
Well, those aren't the only two sources of information about god. Humans have thought up a variety of things about god(s), so that's only a subset. I agree that the the deity presented in those texts is an evil being, but the evil came from the authors.
I'd recommend reading the Bhagavad Gita or something. I don't think it's perfect either but out of the three I'd say it's top notch.
I disagree to an extent. I think the claim of perfection increases the absurdity of the overall claim, but not the whole picture.
I wouldn't call a genocidal, tribalistic, jealous, wrathful warlord "ordinary" in our time. It might be more common when it was written but even then I'd imagine that it'd be toward the bottom of the barrel in terms of human morality.
I disagree to this as well, to an extent.
If a parent allows a child to learn to ride a bike, and the child falls and scrapes her knee, then if that's the only moment she takes into account, she may consider her parent to be evil. The parent allowed misfortune. But the parent was also helping the child to develop a skill.
Now I'm not saying this is necessarily how the universe operates, I'm just saying that it's not quite so cut and dry.
I disagree that god creates the definition of good and evil. Any sapient mind may put forth an opinion of what is good or evil, and might does not make right.
If there existed a god who, for some reason, was sadistic enough to make an entire universe just to fill it with agony on purpose, then this would be about the most evil thing that a human could think of. With your logic, this god could define such a situation as good. Changing the words does not change the effects.
Suffering existed on this earth far before humans developed. We were not the earliest creatures here.
Whew. That was probably too many multi-quotes for one post.
-Lyn
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
The parent cannot write the skill into the child's mind, or remove the risk from riding a bike entirely. God can.
This assumes a pretty specific view of what god is.
What if only god exists and she decides to experience herself through creation? In such a view, we are all aspects of god experiencing what there is to experience. She may not be able to "write the skill" into our minds.
What if god wants beings to figure out the skills for their own selves? Is it more satisfying to inherit $100 million or to ethically build a $100 million company using your intelligence, hard work, talent, and passion?
Well, some might say he has removed the risk. For instance, if someone believes in reincarnation, people basically keep trying until they get it right and remove their self from the cycle. Risk is limited in such a sense.
Others might say that without risk, there is no reward. If beings were conscious of the fact that there is no risk, would they try their hardest? Risk could be an illusion.
-Lyn
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that God is Good. IMO a person who views God as evil is really in love with evil and considers it good and by that standard since God is opposed to evil He can be viewed as evil.
The posession of power does not establish whether it is used for good or evil. Since God is all powerful it is most fortunate for those who believe in good that God is good.
I have never seen any evidence that God isn't just. However is justice then highest form of goodnes or is love higher?
AnnaTheBeast
Member
You've also never seen evidence that god is real.
thats what brings me back to saying the Pink Unicorn goddess is real.
God isnt good, he is malevolent.
If he was god he would be omnipresent omnipotent and omniscient.
Which brings me back to in the garden of eden he knew that the serpent was in the process of tricking eve, he knew that she was taking a bite of that fruit he knew adam was about to get tricked. Hell when he thought them up he would have known their future and known they'd disobey and cause them to have suffering and pain.
ma·lev·o·lent- Having or showing a wish to do evil to others.
If he made them still with this knowledge he would have had if he was all the things a god is suppose to be, he knowingly caused them pain and did evil to them.
He is evil and malevolent.
thats what brings me back to saying the Pink Unicorn goddess is real.
God isnt good, he is malevolent.
If he was god he would be omnipresent omnipotent and omniscient.
Which brings me back to in the garden of eden he knew that the serpent was in the process of tricking eve, he knew that she was taking a bite of that fruit he knew adam was about to get tricked. Hell when he thought them up he would have known their future and known they'd disobey and cause them to have suffering and pain.
ma·lev·o·lent- Having or showing a wish to do evil to others.
If he made them still with this knowledge he would have had if he was all the things a god is suppose to be, he knowingly caused them pain and did evil to them.
He is evil and malevolent.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
What about the 2 and a half million people or so that God kills or orders the deaths of in the Bible? And that's not counting the millions of people per year in the 2000 years since. All of them were justly killed?