Is god evil

[Sheldon]

They were just unaware
Due to lack of experience

Obviously not, else there wouldn't be so many.

Life didn't come out of nowhere.

You have no idea how life emerged, or from what circumstance. So it's bizarre you don't see how ludicrous it is to make sweeping claims like that.

 

[Sheldon]

First you have to see the character of God as being morally perfect.

No I don't, why would you assume that?

 

[ppp]

I'm just agreeing with the Bible because I am a Christian and pointing out that the arguments that deny what the Bible tells us about God are not good arguments.

Agreeing is making a judgement.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Then why does god not explain himself?

He chooses to have people doing that for him.

Jesus is not some random person on the internet, for example.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God could stop the war in Ukraine without any more bloodshed or destruction..

Of course He could.
He could annihilate each and every one of us.
..but He chooses not to .. at least, for a time.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Obviously not, else there wouldn't be so many.



You have no idea how life emerged, or from what circumstance. So it's bizarre you don't see how ludicrous it is to make sweeping claims like that.

As opposed to believing life did come from nothing for no reason, which totally defies common sense? Life didn't just happen by accident. No life that we see happening now comes from non life.

 

[stvdv]

You have no idea how life emerged, or from what circumstance. So it's bizarre you don't see how ludicrous it is to make sweeping claims like that.

You have no clue what I know and meant, so your claim is ludicrous

 

[syo]

From what I see being said...
'in the beginning adam and eve would never die, suffer, etc if they did not eat the forbidden fruit. Instead of controlling them god gave them freewill to let them choose for themselves.

They knew the consequences yet chose(that free will thing) to eat the forbidden fruit. So from then on they experienced suffering, death, etc. because of the choice they made.

Was god evil or fair since they were allowed choices, not forced one way or the other?

If I lay an apple on the table and tell you don't eat that or you will die,, but you choose to eat it anyway and die..
Is that my fault? Does that make me evil? Or did you die by your own hand and choices?

I don't know.

 

[osgart]

No I don't, why would you assume that?

For the story to work the character of God has to be morally fair, and without error in his morals. For the story to work Adam & Eve had to be created wonderfully, and perfectly capable.

 

[setarcos]

I base my morality on the concept of well being. That which increases the well being is good. That which decreases the well being in bad. Now there is a larger discussion here but when you talk about well being most people agree on specific situations on what is good.

Okay, that meshes with what Christians basically believe. I would wager though that you might disagree with how well-being is defined and can be determined.

I cannot know all of the ramifications of my actions. All I can do is do what I reason is the most just path.

If you cannot know all ramifications and your reason is necessarily limited and finite then how can you determine what is just, let alone what is most just?

But if God does exist and is all knowing and powerful then I would think he could create a reality where severe injustices do not happen.

Perhaps he could. Yet Justice is born from injustice, morality from immorality. You can be neither in a solely perfect reality and since perfection needs definition such a reality is not possible. Our perceived injustices as being incompatible with a God that is all knowing and all powerful springs from a nihilistic view of reality. There can be no justice in such a place.

Can God stop injustices? If He can then he is responsible for them since he created the world.

I think this is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation that has and is being promoted about God. I don't think God can stop injustices from happening for the reasons given above. You cannot be a God worthy of worship or glorification in a perfected creation. If your essence defines justice, morality, and holiness then in creating only those things you negate your own existence. Like a white circle painting its surroundings white. You've created nothing but the elimination of your circular existence.
If more critics would actually read scripture they would know that is says that GOD is the creator of both the light and the darkness. The point is what God wills for mankind.

 

[Brian2]

Then why does god not explain himself?

Interesting question and is one that many a believer has no doubt asked. God does give answers to people who come to Him and ask and give Him the benefit of the doubt however imo.
Certainly most of the Bible is not a book full of God giving theological discourses, which seems to happen in the scriptures of some religions.
God just does what He does and leaves it to us to make up our minds about it mainly.

 

[Brian2]

The US cannot stop the war without more destruction and death. God could stop the war in Ukraine without any more bloodshed or destruction. God's actions are evil in my opinion. It is based on my morals and ethics. Is what Putin is doing evil or is he just carrying out God's will? If God has a master plan for good to come out of this then he is not an evil person, just the means to an end for God.

God can bring good from things that people do which are evil. That does not make their actions any more evil.
It is not really up to us to judge those people however it is up to God.
It is like the brothers of Joseph who were jealous of him and his coat of many colours and sold him as a slave into Egypt. When in the end the brothers found out who Joseph was they were scared but Joseph said not to be scared for they had meant the sale for evil but God had meant it for good. Joseph was not judging them but was noting that they sold him out of evil intent. It is up to God to judge people.
God could stop the was in Ukraine without any more bloodshed or destruction but God is not the sweet civilised ***** cat God we would like. He does what He does and allows what He allows for His own purposes and lets people judge Him as if He is evil and in their ignorance of the good He is going to bring from all this evil in the end.

 

[Brian2]

Agreeing is making a judgement.

Yes I have made the choice to give God the benefit of the doubt and not to make judgements of God.
To judge someone for their actions is usually to bring a condemning judgement on someone and that is how I usually use it.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

He chooses to have people doing that for him.

Jesus is not some random person on the internet, for example.

That is not a good decision by God if he really wants to be understood.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Of course He could.
He could annihilate each and every one of us.
..but He chooses not to .. at least, for a time.

There are other ways to stop the war in Ukraine instead of killing all of us. Is this the only option God has? That is sad.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There are other ways to stop the war in Ukraine instead of killing all of us. Is this the only option God has?

You tell me?
You seem to have it all worked out..

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Okay, that meshes with what Christians basically believe. I would wager though that you might disagree with how well-being is defined and can be determined.

This is why we need to discuss morality. However, most will agree on the large issues of murder, rape, robbery etc.

If you cannot know all ramifications and your reason is necessarily limited and finite then how can you determine what is just, let alone what is most just?

I cannot. But we have no other way to determine what is most just other than our reasoning.

Perhaps he could. Yet Justice is born from injustice, morality from immorality. You can be neither in a solely perfect reality and since perfection needs definition such a reality is not possible. Our perceived injustices as being incompatible with a God that is all knowing and all powerful springs from a nihilistic view of reality. There can be no justice in such a place.

This is untrue. Justice is determined by people, even believers based on their interpretation of what god wants. No one, even believers, agree on what justice is in all situations.

I think this is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation that has and is being promoted about God. I don't think God can stop injustices from happening for the reasons given above. You cannot be a God worthy of worship or glorification in a perfected creation. If your essence defines justice, morality, and holiness then in creating only those things you negate your own existence. Like a white circle painting its surroundings white. You've created nothing but the elimination of your circular existence.
If more critics would actually read scripture they would know that is says that GOD is the creator of both the light and the darkness. The point is what God wills for mankind.

You can have goodness without badness. You can have perfection without imperfection. In heaven this will be the case right? Helping someone get up after they have fallen is still good no matter if there is evil in the world or not.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

God can bring good from things that people do which are evil. That does not make their actions any more evil.
It is not really up to us to judge those people however it is up to God.
It is like the brothers of Joseph who were jealous of him and his coat of many colours and sold him as a slave into Egypt. When in the end the brothers found out who Joseph was they were scared but Joseph said not to be scared for they had meant the sale for evil but God had meant it for good. Joseph was not judging them but was noting that they sold him out of evil intent. It is up to God to judge people.

God could stop the was in Ukraine without any more bloodshed or destruction but God is not the sweet civilised ***** cat God we would like. He does what He does and allows what He allows for His own purposes and lets people judge Him as if He is evil and in their ignorance of the good He is going to bring from all this evil in the end.

Then how can He judge us for our determination that God does evil things? He is keeping me ignorant, I have no way to determine or know His actions are moral. All the evidence points to a God that will not stop a war that He could stop. Surely any good that will come of this war can be achieved without the war if God is all powerful.[/QUOTE]

 

[dybmh]

You can have goodness without badness. You can have perfection without imperfection.

Without badness and imperfection, goodness and perfection are nothing more than neutral.

In heaven this will be the case right?

Well, that's an interesting point. Maybe that's true in the Christian paradigm, I don't know. Maybe eventhough badness and imperfection don't exist in heaven, they still exist in hell which allows for good and perfection to remain as superlatives.

 

[setarcos]

I cannot. But we have no other way to determine what is most just other than our reasoning.

Except...perhaps revelation from God I believe the proof of which is beyond reasoning and realize is also beyond that which we can determine except perhaps in hindsight.
So, for those humans who do not except revelation as an actionable truth we are left not with what is most just or even more just but with our perception of what may be just given our limited powers of reason.
Can we agree though that there must be, despite our inability to definitively discern it, a most just path to take?

Justice is determined by people

No, justice is discerned by people and as shown, most imperfectly. People don't create Justice through their action. Their action is at best determined to be just or unjust by imperfectly applying reason to the situation. Now people may define what is meant by just or unjust but cannot by example since the term is an abstraction of what is moral and such abstractions can be defined but not definitively determined to fit a particular case as much as we would like to think or hope so. Innocent people have been "justly" sent to prison only to later change the terms used to unjustly not because people decided to redefine their actions but because they didn't define them properly to begin with .

even believers based on their interpretation of what god wants.

How we define Justice has nothing to do with what we say is just. What believers determine God wants does not define what is Just but is interpreted to BE just as we have defined it.

No one, even believers, agree on what justice is in all situations.

I think even believers can generally agree on what justice means. Whether or not that definition applies to a particular instance is another matter of which believers and non-believers are imperfectly subject to. I wonder where people got the notion that since it can be shown that there are differing believers having differing notions of what is just that that proves that all believers must be wrong? Because believers can be wrong does not prove all believers to be wrong. The same as applies to non-believers.

You can have goodness without badness.

No, we can only have an awareness of a present good only in comparison to an awareness of a potential bad and once we are aware we can actualize either as autonomous persons.
It is good to help a person in need only because the potential to not help them is bad. If the potential to not help them doesn't exist then we couldn't be aware of helping them being good. It would simply be an insincere action.

You can have perfection without imperfection.

Again, I don't think so. An awareness of perfection requires an awareness of imperfection. Once you are aware of either or in order to make either of those a thing we are capable of being able to be aware of they must be capable of actualization.
Once perfection is achieved whatever that means, it would have to include an awareness of imperfection and the loss of its potential actualization. Anything less would not be perfect. Assuming perfection included an awareness of it.
Say humans were created perfect, what ever that means, this would imply imperfection in humans never existed. If it was Gods intention to be glorified by making them aware of their own perfection that perfection would have to include being autonomous or else they wouldn't be perfected as aware creatures. And since being aware of what perfection is, these creatures would have to be aware of what imperfection is, and since these creatures in their perfected state would have to be autonomous that implies ability to actualize what they are aware of since if they couldn't they wouldn't be autonomous and perfect. Hence the necessity for the potential of imperfection and if that necessity isn't met then no perfection is possible in the aware creature. So any creature given awareness must of necessity be created less than perfect in an unperfected universe in order to achieve an awareness of perfection.

In heaven this will be the case right?

I'm not sure what the case will be in "heaven" but in order for aware creatures to be perfected imperfection must be realized as well.

Helping someone get up after they have fallen is still good no matter if there is evil in the world or not.

Why is helping someone get up considered good? If nothing is considered evil in the world then not helping them get up would be just as good. If no evil existed then it couldn't be considered bad for them to have fallen in the first place. Or they couldn't have fallen. If their situation is not bad then why is changing their situation considered to be good?