Is God good? Is God loving?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

f God is good and God is loving what is the evidence? This is all about evidence. I don’t want to see any scriptures because they are not evidence.

Don't you think that it would be best to first establish that God IS -- before trying to figure out whether He is like this or like that? I mean, you never ask whether the Flying Spaghetti Monster is good or bad, and I presume that's just because you don't think the FSM exists.

So, same question about God.

Look around you in this world. What evidence do you see that would indicate that a good/loving God exists? I am trying to be objective about this rather than being influenced by my own feelings and life experiences which do not constitute evidence.

I'm afraid the news is very bad. Objectively, everything that lives will die -- and (at least for the sentient ones) mostly in pain and/or fear. And they'll leave grief-stricken others behind. Dying in pain is probably not a good thing, and being grief-stricken (as I know personally) is no great shakes either.

So, no. I have to tell you, I see no evidence whatever of any "god," and even less (if that's possible) of one that is good or loving.

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't you think that it would be best to first establish that God IS -- before trying to figure out whether He is like this or like that?

That can never be established, only believed...
So the question is: IF God exists, is God good and loving?

I'm afraid the news is very bad. Objectively, everything that lives will die -- and (at least for the sentient ones) mostly in pain and/or fear. And they'll leave grief-stricken others behind. Dying in pain is probably not a good thing, and being grief-stricken (as I know personally) is no great shakes either.

So, no. I have to tell you, I see no evidence whatever of any "god," and even less (if that's possible) of one that is good or loving.

I have to admit that objectively I see pretty much what you see, so no, there is reason to believe that God is good or loving, unless one 'believes' what is in Scriptures.

 

[Lain]

How would you call an omnipotent, omniscient and omnimalevolent creator being? I call it evil God.

Malevolent according to what? What does "malevolence" precisely mean to you? I ask because if you just allow me to go with how I'd define things concerning that term then the question would be incoherent, but as you're asking it I'm assuming it isn't, so I need to understand your idea of this concept.

 

[DNB]

Whereas I can agree with what you said in principle I do not know how you can explain the suffering of innocents, humans and animals, if God is good and loving. I cannot accommodate that in my logical mind, I just cannot make it work. Life is not a gift for everyone, it is unmitigated suffering for many people. Moreover, in spite of the potential for man to be good there are many things that happen that are not caused by the free will choices and actions of man, things that are fated by God.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man forced to endure them because God set it up that way. I know all the religious apologetic about how suffering is supposed to be beneficial for spiritual growth but it really does not help. Maybe it is beneficial but many people never reap the benefits in this life.. We are told we will see the benefits in the next life, but that requires a lot of faith since there is no proof of the afterlife.

And what about nonbelievers, those who do not even acknowledge God's presence? Do you think that is their own fault?

I cannot add anything to what you already stated as far as explanations go. Yes, I believe that there will be inevitable suffering for all while men are on this earth, and that such calamities are both within his control, and beyond it. And, that the afterlife will recompense all according to the injustices done to them, or the injustices that they committed. This does require faith, as you stated, but, I believe that such an acquisition of faith is within all men's reach. We cannot deny God's existence, nor His supremacy, transcendence, and thus, perfection. God will not be mocked by His creation, nor will His will be circumvented or sabotaged by the efforts of man, or any of His creation. I believe that life's tragedies are meant to display both man's impotency, and the necessity for his reliance upon God. But, also, God's impending wrath - we all deserve to die, no one has done their best to obey, honour and love God, or his neighbour.

God's punishment is just, ....but, His mercy is beyond gracious. We all deserve to die, and thus, we have absolutely no excuse to not accept His free offer of Redemption, ...and, yet, same still don't. You tell me who's to blame?

 

[Trailblazer]

I cannot add anything to what you already stated as far as explanations go. Yes, I believe that there will be inevitable suffering for all while men are on this earth, and that such calamities are both within his control, and beyond it. And, that the afterlife will recompense all according to the injustices done to them, or the injustices that they committed. This does require faith, as you stated, but, I believe that such an acquisition of faith is within all men's reach. We cannot deny God's existence, nor His supremacy, transcendence, and thus, perfection. God will not be mocked by His creation, nor will His will be circumvented or sabotaged by the efforts of man, or any of His creation. I believe that life's tragedies are meant to display both man's impotency, and the necessity for his reliance upon God. But, also, God's impending wrath - we all deserve to die, no one has done their best to obey, honour and love God, or his neighbour.

God's punishment is just, ....but, His mercy is beyond gracious. We all deserve to die, and thus, we have absolutely no excuse to not accept His free offer of Redemption, ...and, yet, same still don't. You tell me who's to blame?

All true and well-stated. Everything you said about God and suffering is fully congruent with my Baha'i beliefs.

To be honest, I have been posting mostly to atheists on this forum for a long time, and I think it has taken its toll on my thinking even though I did dot realize it. It never took a toll on my religious beliefs or my belief in God but it has affected my feelings towards God, whether God is good and loving. Only after I start posting to believers again do I realize that I am suffering from cognitive distortions because it does not even make sense to think that God is not good or not loving. I see a lot of suffering in the world and in my own life but the best response is that I am not God so I don't fully understand why but I will know more in the afterlife.

No, it is certainly not God who is to blame for those who have rejected Jesus and the cross sacrifice became God gave everyone free will to choose as well as the capacity to choose.

 

[DNB]

Is this the planet earth you're referring to?

for starters, yes...

 

[firedragon]

I am now under the impression you are not using the words 'necessary' and 'contingent' as in modal logic, but in some other way. Is this correct?

If you do the research you would understand. I recommended what to read.

 

[DNB]

All true and well-stated. Everything you said about God and suffering is fully congruent with my Baha'i beliefs.

To be honest, I have been posting mostly to atheists on this forum for a long time, and I think it has taken its toll on my thinking even though I did dot realize it. It never took a toll on my religious beliefs or my belief in God but it has affected my feelings towards God, whether God is good and loving. Only after I start posting to believers again do I realize that I am suffering from cognitive distortions because it does not even make sense to think that God is not good or not loving. I see a lot of suffering in the world and in my own life but the best response is that I am not God so I don't fully understand why but I will know more in the afterlife.

No, it is certainly not God who is to blame for those who have rejected Jesus and the cross sacrifice became God gave everyone free will to choose as well as the capacity to choose.

I know exactly what you mean. This site is full of atheists, that I always seem to receive more contention to my posts, than agreement. Like you said, it doesn't undermine my faith, necessarily, but it forces one to realize what a minority a monotheist can be at times (many are called, but few are chosen?) Or, more critically, the dichotomy that exists between a certain type of people's perception, compared to another (the fool says in his heart, ...).

Although I do love the challenge, I too am feeling a strong desire to discuss these issues with like-minded people, rather than antagonists. Not because I'm not up to the confrontation or feel a threat to my beliefs at all, but because I don't believe that there's any merit to the atheistic view, and I'm tired of constantly dealing with a demography who's views stem from a bad place in their heart - it's ugly and negative, and devoid of truth. One can only tolerate ignorance and willful blindness for so long.

 

[Truthseeker]

Look around you in this world. What evidence do you see that would indicate that a good/loving God exists? I am trying to be objective about this rather than being influenced by my own feelings and life experiences which do not constitute evidence.

I've told you this story before.

Once upon a time I had a dream where the Bab appeared. He told me that I would soon get married.

This is not about miracles, so I'll cut to the chase. An assistant to the auxiliary board who lived in the Cleveland area came to a deepening in Greene County near Dayton, Ohio and for some strange reason thought I was a match for a woman in the Cleveland area. Her name then was Karen Hengeli. Later she changed her first name to Sara because from the beginning her mother had called her Sara and her mother died in about 1991.

Anyway, this matchmaker called me and asked if I would meet Karen for a date, essentially. I told her I could not meet her because I was moving to San Antonio soon. After a while I was lonely there. Yes, unsocial autistic people get lonely too. I called the matchmaker and asked for her address. When I wrote her it was as if I already knew her, I was so honest with her about me. I was astonished at how fast I got a letter back. i was numb in shock for the next day. We wrote back and forth and you know the rest. God was good to me to get me a wife. I was a very shy person and no one would have chosen me without god's assistance, in my opinion. My written skills are so much better than my oral skills.

Another occasion I never told you about before. I lost my job in January, 2001. In December 2000 my mother died at 77. I was very surprised that my parents had a trust for us children of over $500,000. If it wasn't for that trust I wouldn't have been able to live decently at all. In addition, she had left her insurance policy to me and it came at a time when we were running out of money months later. Months after that, thanks to my wife who kept doggedly at it, just as I was in despair of finding a job the government approved my disability insurance. There was a back payment that allowed us to pay over $10,000 in Huququallah. They didn't know at that time I was autistic. The diagnosis had been ADD and generalized anxiety. A man I dimly remember said that don't usually give disability for ADD. God was good to me on all of those occasions. I was able to not live in some slum.

Oh, yeah, in March 2017, my last brother died, and in the will of my mother all of the money that had been used for my brothers was to come to me. It seemed and I didn't know it at the time that the money for Sara and me was running short, because we had been drawing more per month than would hold up long term.

Yes, you might say God gave me the limitations I have through my genetics, but nevertheless I believe that God is good.

 

[Truthseeker]

If God is good and God is loving what is the evidence? Look around you in this world. What evidence do you see that would indicate that a good/loving God exists? How is all the suffering that is not brought on my man's free will decisions indicative of a good/loving God?

You handicap me by not letting me use scripture and analyzing it. You will not find answers otherwise except by accepting what the Manifestations and the interpreters said. You know that you are wrong in thinking that God has bad characteristics, but you cannot get beyond your reasoning.

 

[Truthseeker]

And what about nonbelievers, those who do not even acknowledge God's presence? Do you think that is their own fault?

I don't know how much is their fault. How can anyone? We haven't led their life. However, as I understand it, without using scripture, all progress in the next life, however bad it seems to them at first, which of course we don't know.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and from what I can see you have led a very good life and treated people well.

Thanks Trailblazer. Yes, I have tried to live a honest life, have enjoyed its ups and down and generally been careful about my responsibilities. 80 is good enough. Perhaps a few more years, but it does not really matter.

 

[Truthseeker]

Maybe it is beneficial but many people never reap the benefits in this life.. We are told we will see the benefits in the next life, but that requires a lot of faith since there is no proof of the afterlife.

You believe in the next life, don't you? It is the choice of many of those who don't reap the benefits in this life, though I recognize that doesn't include all people.

 

[Trailblazer]

You handicap me by not letting me use scripture and analyzing it. You will not find answers otherwise except by accepting what the Manifestations and the interpreters said. You know that you are wrong in thinking that God has bad characteristics, but you cannot get beyond your reasoning.

Anybody can use scriptures to try to say that God is good and loving but that is not evidence.
I wanted to know about evidence aside from the scriptures, objective evidence.

Whether I am wrong or not is a moot point.
You can say that I cannot get beyond my reasoning but I can just as easily say that you cannot get beyond your scriptures and think for yourself.

 

[Truthseeker]

I imagine you hold these beliefs because of the biblical scriptures or maybe your own life experiences, but what about people who don't believe in these scriptures or have good life experiences?

I have had good life experiences that detailed to you. I also believe in the scriptures. I guess those contributions I made to you are null and void.

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe in the next life, don't you? It is the choice of many of those who don't reap the benefits in this life, though I recognize that doesn't include all people.

I believe there is a next life but as you know I do not look forward to it. Even if there is an afterlife that does not magically waft away all the suffering some people have to endure in this life.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have had good life experiences that detailed to you. I also believe in the scriptures. I guess those contributions I made to you are null and void.

No, that's not true. I just view things differently than you do because I am different person.

 

[Truthseeker]

Anybody can use scriptures to try to say that God is good and loving but that is not evidence.
I wanted to know about evidence aside from the scriptures, objective evidence.

Whether I am wrong or not is a moot point.
You can say that I cannot get beyond my reasoning but I can just as easily say that you cannot get beyond your scriptures and think for yourself.

Yes, but we both believe in the same scriptures, except for some by 'Abdu'l-Baha evidently, and I am thinking for myself about those scriptures. I believe in those whose scriptures by using reason and an inner voice that tells that they are from God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Notice you say we meaning human men.
And you personally did not start there.

No. In the referred post, I mean all things in the universe, living and non-living, without any exception, including a dead body, when I said 'we'. That is the standard Advaita non-dual Hinduism statement.
Yes, what constitutes me started 13.78 billion years ago (the molecules) and will last till the end of universe.

 

[Truthseeker]

Not all people are equally able to handle the pain of life and see it as good and that is not their fault. It is because of many things that were predestined by God which contributed to their hereditary disposition and childhood upbringing.

That's true. You are using your own experience, of course. May God be good to you in the rest of your life, and in the next life.