Yeah, but things can be multidimensional. God can be sorry that He created, because some use this life for evil. However, he knows that some will be righteous and therefore creation as not mistake, even though it may have painful sides.
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Is God Omniscient as people say?
- Thread starter Faithofchristian
- Start date
Yeah, but things can be multidimensional. God can be sorry that He created, because some use this life for evil. However, he knows that some will be righteous and therefore creation as not mistake, even though it may have painful sides.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Axe Elf
Prophet
Wait, surely you're not suggesting that you, a mere mortal limited in perspective to a single almost infinitesimally tiny point in time and space, can determine God's purposes to the extent of declaring definitively that something God has done is pointless?
If you are, I'm just going to have a big belly laugh and move on.
It's not an exercise in futility, it's an exercise in creating the evil necessary for His purposes.
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." --Isaiah 45:7
"The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil." --Proverbs 16:4
"You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?" --Romans 9:19-21
You make it sound as if someone could, upon discovering that their actions are predestined, CHOOSE to sit back and let things unfold rather than taking an active role in their fate. Obviously, if one takes a passive, helpless role in life, they were predestined to do so, and if one takes an active role in their fate, that course of action was also predestined.
Cateau
Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee
Do you then agree then with the scholars who say right after their creation some angels staight out rejected god? Or they were convinced by Lucifer to leave their domain? Or both?
Axe Elf
Prophet
I'm not totally convinced that Lucifer isn't a character like Adam & Eve--not real, but useful in the instruction of spiritual principles. If he IS real, then the story goes that Lucifer wanted to be like God, to be his own god, and led a factions of angels in rebellion, all of which were ultimately thrown out of the pool along with Lucifer.
This makes a lot of sense, in that the desire to be their own gods was also what Lucifer temped Adam & Eve with, and to this day, the Church of Satan is more a religion of indulging oneself--being one's own god--rather than literal devil worship.
So it wasn't really that the rebellious angels rejected God, per se, more that they were just preferring to be ruled by Lucifer. And Lucifer wasn't really trying to convince them to leave their domain, per se, he just attracted some to fight on his side against God. Getting thrown out of the pool, like their ultimate defeat, may have come as a surprise to them.
I'm not sure what all that has to do with predestination, other than that if that story does relate some version of actual events, then we can be pretty sure that they were also predestined by an omniscient God.
Cateau
Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee
Riiiight, sooo I mean with predestination it can't rlly be one or the other...like you say you are born accepting or rejecting god, sooo I suppose it is the same for the angels right? B/c the bible and book of Enoch do refer to multiple angels (lucifer, Azazel, Semjaza, Belial, ect. [that differ from demons and do not call themselves "legions" b/c they are chief commanders] of distinct hierarchies (arch angel, ect.)) leading their comrads (?) out of their domain. Which is to say if the angels already had it in their hearts not to love their creator (predestined/we'e born accepting or rejecting god) then they cast themslves out by acting upon the perversion in their hearts and not by just having rejected god as the cause. So being an atheist or of different faiths wouldnt be enough for god not to let us in the New Jerusalem, unless we act on that rejection (biblically) through sin and getting the mark of the beast.
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Axe Elf
Prophet
That seems largely reasonable. Just keep in mind that whether or not one acts on that rejection is a choice wholly of the Lord's, as it was with the angels; it wouldn't be a matter of personal choice if God is the creator of spacetime.
Cateau
Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee
Uhmmm yeaaaa.....i know that god (the biblical god) can be argued to be omnipresent since the bible foreshadows many events in the future and god of course is there, but in Genesis it states that the Word was with god and god is the word. Now when we think of words, which all of creation came into being from, (Enoch states god spoke/speaks Hebrew) we think of frequency/vibrations (which all in all we are vibrating minerals/molecules/atoms as princess Diana put) so naturally what can come to mind when we speak of god (as in the god head of the holy triune) is His 3 natures. One of them is a force, hence The Word/frequencies/vibrations reverberating through space by which healing/miracles occure b/c prayer/meditation/the law of attraction works from thoughts or words the universe taps into. The other is the Holy Spirit or a malak/angel, the next is a human being. So if god can be considered the universe/mother nature/father time then we can conclude in this state He can be considered omnipresent because He is every where at all times, and that would serve as the reason the bible is able to show us things that are yet to come. But predestination does not show us that it is god's choice, besides free will being the reason for sin we can see by example that god is more than willing to have a person change their mind for better or worse but not in a bend to my will or I will seek vengence type way, as most make out god to be, but in a paternally strict way. Being able to see the future makes you act differently towards someone, god saw what would happen to Lucifer so He gave Him everything and treated him like a son but the end result was still as predicted Satan didn't want the love but the power. With Pharoe god gave warnings to him by sending Moses which he did not heed, meaning god had to act harsh and He sent plagues to get him to change his mind but he did not heed. With Saul, god spoke to him from Raquia and startled him into no longer slaying his people, I think also he made his donkey speak to him, as god sent his messenger to kill him, but the donkey didn't go forward so he was spared. What this indicates is that god would not predestine someone to sin even though from the start they may not have loved Him or accepted Him that does not mean they bear no free will to go against him or follow Him or that anyone is set in their ways/have their story written in the stars. In Enoch the Malak repented and wanted to return to their domain, however they were cast into darkness and chained for the transgresson caused against our planet and will be sentenced (maybe by us as it says in the bible we will judge angels, but who knows maybe we will just act as witnesses against them) after the second coming.....i think they are freed in the end times for like a millenia before being destroyed. Way I see it god is everyone's father not just a diety so distant from us, He cares deeply for everything, each hair on our head is counted and every tear drop collected in jars. To say that god created the devil is a misunderstanding, He tried to stop a lot of ppl from going the wrong way even if that's where they started.
Axe Elf
Prophet
Dude, have you ever heard of paragraphs? Ok, let's get started here...
Well, I wouldn't want to debate the merits of Princess Diana's Vibrating Minerals Theory of Existence, since she's not here to defend herself, but words are only a "vibration" when they are in a medium that propogates sound waves, e.g., when they are spoken. A word is more than just its spoken sound--it's also the shape of its letters on a page and more than both of those expressions of it, a word is a concept--a symbol for the aspect of reality that it represents.
When I think of Jesus being referred to by that... uh... word, I think of it as an allegory for Jesus being the tangible, earthy representation of God. Jesus is a symbol for God, the body of God that stands for the mind of God. And here is where I would also speak of God's 3 natures--the blueprint for our own image of His triune nature--a body (Son), mind (Father) and Spirit.
But you have some other nonsense to say about His 3 natures...
This is quite literally nothing but unadulterated poppycock, you realize that, right?
If you do not (yet) realize that, then first show me any effect of this force--show me scientific evidence that prayer works to effect healings and/or miracles, reliably and replicably.
Then demonstrate how this force propagates that effect via measurable vibrations in space.
Then give me an example of a thought or a word that the universe taps into (defining what you mean by that first, of course).
Ok, I guess that's close enough for the body and the Spirit (although it's not really an angel, it's just the impersonal force that makes inanimate matter alive).
Ok, I could tear this whole thing down brick by brick, but frankly I'm just getting tired of teaching today. So I'll just let the Bible speak for itself regarding predestination.
And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac, and the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them], it was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? --Romans 9:10-21
The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil. --Proverbs 16:4
Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent] --Ephesians 1:4-5
[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will, --Ephesians 1:10-11
For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]. --Ephesians 2:10
We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being]. --Romans 8:28-30
A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure. --Proverbs 16:9
The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]. --Proverbs 16:33
Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. --Proverbs 19:21
Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way? --Proverbs 20:24
O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23
No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. --John 6:44
And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father. --John 6:65
Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! --Psalm 65:4a
And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). --Acts 13:48
What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God's favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it). As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day. --Romans 11:7-8
[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight. --Phillippians 2:13
Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness. But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His firstfruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth. --2 Thessalonians 2:11-13
For in this city there actually met and plotted together against Your holy Child and Servant Jesus, Whom You consecrated by anointing, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and peoples of Israel, to carry out all that Your hand and Your will and purpose had predestined (predetermined) should occur. --Acts 4:27-28
It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you. --1 Peter 1:20
The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as are the watercourses; He turns it whichever way He wills. --Proverbs 21:1
Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. --Jeremiah 1:5
Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. --Psalm 139:16
Since a man's days are already determined, and the number of his months is wholly in Your control, and he cannot pass the bounds of his allotted time --Job 14:5
And He made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men to settle on the face of the earth, having definitely determined [their] allotted periods of time and the fixed boundaries of their habitation (their settlements, lands, and abodes), --Acts 17:26
The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come. --Revelation 17:8
Cateau
Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee
Uuuhuuu......quoting bible verses does no justice as I will obviously look at it from a different angle (beauty is in the eye of the beholder type thing) based on my own perspective/experiences. As you will also. I mean I have read the bible, just 2 weeks ago I finished it and a month before i finnished the book of Enoch which I believe is filled with myraid allegories/hyperboles/parables, which are erroneously (in my view of course after much studying) taken literally even in the bible. This is the cause of the extensions of faith, the exceeding growing number of denominations. I don't even fall under any existing ones lol. But I guess when it comes down to it, even if god does subjugate us to ruler positions or subservient positions based on our "future selves" to do his will, it does not rule out agape being used to change the course ppl are on for salvation. He does after all love us but He does have His seed as does satan have His but it does not mean He is not fighting for our souls even if we are predestined.
But bad things can happen to good ppl without satan having to make a wager with god. Some are due to generational sins/curses, others are consequences for poor decisions that follow us, and some are untimely events/accidents. It is rather hard to have to hear "oooohhhh god needed another little angel" as the reason for someone's death. Or "yesssss, thank god finally they got was coming to them." Why is it hard to hear? B/c no one but the Son is in Raquia and justice will be served when the judgment is here so till then we shouldn't take what comes around goes around to heart (you can read specifically about it on Amazingfacts.org in the Bible study section under Hell Tuth & I highly recommend you read Who is Michael as well under the same category (SPOILER ALERT: He's of the holy triune.) We are all sinners and deserving of death, we should not seek the universe to pay back anyone b/c we were once in those frenenenemie's shoes but lived long enough to repent and we must love our enemies/neighbors and pray for those that persecute us.
Actually it makes much sense, some scholars think god created the universe through saying "let there be light, ect." And that the Malak were made by using symbols/words in writting. There is a notion (maybe you can find it, i cant seem to) in which the bible is looked at as an explanation of existence (through reverberating sound waves/frequencies/molecules/minerals) in that the apple from Genesis is the Adams apple and the glottis is the snake b/c of it's snake fang look. But of course as believers we cannot assume all in the bible is an allegory or explanation of science with words and examples of another time unable to describe what was being theorized or was actually written purposely in symbology to be deciphered by the elect only. But I do think it could fit perfectly into The Evidence Bible.
The reason I mention princess Diana is b/c she recorded some tapes concerning the royal family being other worldly (demonic) and confessing to her the occult knowledge mentioned above about this "matrix" we are in. Her attempted suicide (throwing herself down the stairs) while pregnant with Harry (?) had to do with this fact of being used as a pawn/breeder and her death seems to have been a sacrifice. You can find an article explaining her death as a ritual on VigilantCitizen.com in the search engine using any relevant keyword. But I would recommend watching Fallen Angels and the New World Order on Freedocumentaries.org (.com?) or YouTube before hand so you can understand how the conspirital ties in with the biblical.
In this regard of being the universe/mother nature/father time/ frequency...ect, god is omnipresent/omniscient b/c He is everywhere at all times. To regard the godhead as such. I recommend The Divine Matrix which goes into greater depth about the prayer/meditation/law of attraction business and about molecules, atoms ect reacting on it. But to go along with it Defiled: the dangers of alternative medicine b/c the authors need balance in their teachings. Funny enough they anonymously mention each other negatively in their books lol, only caught it b/c I was reading the two at the same time (Oh the spare time one has at youth, now I'm lucky if I get through one.) But I believe you can find the article of a University on the Tibetan Monks, the study had one pray or meditate for contaminated water, which did yield substantial results.
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Axe Elf
Prophet
I do appreciate that you took my note on organizing your thoughts (such as they may be) in paragraphs, but I'm afraid that the rest of my regularly-scheduled response has had to be cancelled due to the nonsensical nature of your post.
I'm an atheist, but I say there's certainly nothing that prevents 'god' from being omniscient. It simply means that he sees the entire span of creation from beginning to end (or without beginning or end?).
It's only when you start adding Bible verses that things get hairy.
It's only when you start adding Bible verses that things get hairy.
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with love comes understanding. with god comes all knowing. if God is Absolute then god only has to know itself and not something otherwise
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
The philosophical idea of omniscience (as well as the other omni- ideas) don't seem to me to fit God. God is not constrained by ideas from Aristotle. Plus, they seem to result in weird arguments such as, "Can God create something so heavy he can't lift it?" Complete nonsense.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
There is no where in the Bible, that's written that God is all knowing.
People will say, God is all knowing, That's people saying.
No where in the Bible that is written, God as being all knowing.
aristotle would have influenced the jews of jesus' time. the roman invasion saw to that.
Aristotle and Judaism | My Jewish Learning
we know to well that judaism was influenced by other cultures; so it only follows that...............
the word omniscience didn't become a word until the 1620's
omniscience | Origin and meaning of omniscience by Online Etymology Dictionary
the idea is inferred. it isn't explicitly labeled. zoroastrianism influenced judaism through the babylonian exile.
The points of resemblance between Zoroastrianism and Judaism, and hence also between the former and Christianity, are many and striking. Ahuramazda, the supreme lord of Iran, omniscient, omnipresent, and eternal, endowed with creative power, which he exercises especially through the medium of his Spenta Mainyu ("Holy Spirit"), and governing the universe through the instrumentality of angels and archangels, presents the nearest parallel to Yhwh that is found in antiquity.
Cateau
Giovanni Pico & Della Barba Devotee
Rlly, it's nonsensical? And that is just a brief summary of the top of the iceberg bruh. And you dare not look at my references in opposition of you for fear it will waste your time? (oooorrrr for fear it will blow your mind?) Is that really how one maintains that their opinions are right (by ignoring (critical) information that may or may not further prove your point or disprove it)?.....I honestly don't know why I'm not taken srsly enough to have my opinions investigated, I feel like Rorschach (from the 2009 film Watchmen) *cries.*
But in all fairness I did mention before that the whole using quotes from the bible, even scientific studies will ultimately be looked at from a perspective of what we already know to be true for ourselves and use it as leverage to fuel the fire instead of debate ourselves using someone else's information. Why? because we are already convinced we are right. But I guess that's why the bible says it's ppl die from lack of knowledge, thinking we know enough.
I for one will study your subject and since I know you will do nothing of the sort with mine, I will subject you to an experiment; and though it may or may not work (but I unlike you have faith in prayer) you probably will not even report the results. But oh you will see results indeed......you are sooooo going down (not to hell lol, it's not a curse.) I'm just gonna pray the scales fall from your eyes, that you wake up about what you completly ignored because either god is a myth and satan/demons/legions too or they arn' t (not that god is and satan is not.) Please note I will be praying this for myself too, as hard as it is to awaken, it is 100x more easier to go back to sleep.
Do not reply just keep this in mind.... so you'll remember this when you wake up (sounds creeper status but noooo, I just like to win and when I'm wrong I change directions and I like to give ppl' s ideas a chance in changing my direction, that may not be you and I have no choice but to respect that (and pray to change that lol...ok bye.)
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Yes, I agree. Philo was certainly influenced by him.