Is God Really Good?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It all depends, I suppose, on how you see death. Death is generally considered a bad thing, when a child dies we all go 'that's so sad' when not everyone thinks of death that way. Death is not evil, it's the opposite really.

That doesn't get rid of the Problem of Evil. If death really is better than life, then this just means that instead of being less than perfectly good for letting people die, God is less than perfect for letting people live.

Whatever standard you pick, the world doesn't match it consistently. No matter how you look at it, the world is imperfect, therefore its creator - if it has one - is imperfect.

... and if the world was perfect, it would negate the whole idea of the Second Coming. Why would Jesus swoop down and right all of the world's wrongs if the world is as right as it can possibly be? It's a central tenet of Christianity that we live in a fallen world, and that God is ultimately responsible for everything when we trace things back to their source.

But I digress, About the story of Abraham I've always found it beautiful. That Abraham so trusted God, so loved God, that He'd obey Him even in killing his own son because He knew that God had a plan and so was steadfast. Honestly I'm kind of jealous.

Abraham's story isn't about a test, or about murder or about anything else. It's about faith. Atleast, that's how I see it. God showed Abraham himself, something not very many of us get to see. Who we really are, How far we're really willing to go, how much faith and love and truth we really have in us. It was a great honor, imo.

Would Abraham's faith have been any less if he had refused to sacrifice his son? If he had said "No! The god I worship is a righteous god who would never want me to sacrifice my son! Get away, imposter!"?

As a couple of posters touched on, this would have been an accurate assessment of God, no?

The thing that Abraham is rewarded for is really for believing that God can be monstrous but staying loyal anyway. If Abraham believed that God was entirely good and righteous, he would have refused... out of strength of faith and certainty about God, not out of lack of faith.

 

[George-ananda]

As an atheist many assume that my biggest beef with god is that I don't think he is real. While that has some truth to it, for me, it is just as important if not more so to acknowledge that if god were real, I would think he was a jerk.

And to me that's actually a more tangible thing to argue against theists then the position of him being real or not. In the bible god caused a flood that killed thousands of people, he tested Abraham to kill his son Issac, he takes away everything from Job just to prove a point to Satan.

If god is so good, why didn't he save his chosen people from the holocaust? If god is so good why do life forms have to ingest other life forms to survive? To paraphrase Schopenhauer, compare the feeling of satisfaction of the predator to the agony of the prey. If our species is "so special" to be the only ones to associate with god why are so many animals equipped to kill us in a second notice?

It's these questions that I find to be more interesting then the classic scenarios of, "You can't prove god exists" and the contrasting "You can't prove he doesn't exist."

I think you are judging God on the thinking of ancient people about God. I think we need to move towards more sophisticated understandings and not think the question is just "God of the Bible" or 'Atheism'. I think the deeper answer is 'neither of the above'.

 

[Thana]

That doesn't get rid of the Problem of Evil. If death really is better than life, then this just means that instead of being less than perfectly good for letting people die, God is less than perfect for letting people live.

Whatever standard you pick, the world doesn't match it consistently. No matter how you look at it, the world is imperfect, therefore its creator - if it has one - is imperfect.

... and if the world was perfect, it would negate the whole idea of the Second Coming. Why would Jesus swoop down and right all of the world's wrongs if the world is as right as it can possibly be? It's a central tenet of Christianity that we live in a fallen world, and that God is ultimately responsible for everything when we trace things back to their source.


Would Abraham's faith have been any less if he had refused to sacrifice his son? If he had said "No! The god I worship is a righteous god who would never want me to sacrifice my son! Get away, imposter!"?

As a couple of posters touched on, this would have been an accurate assessment of God, no?

The thing that Abraham is rewarded for is really for believing that God can be monstrous but staying loyal anyway. If Abraham believed that God was entirely good and righteous, he would have refused... out of strength of faith and certainty about God, not out of lack of faith.

No, all that means is that there is a purpose to life and a purpose to the imperfection of it. And tbh, I find your reasoning that because the world is imperfect ipso facto God is imperfect is lazy, at best.

And I don't think you understand what faith is, Because yes his faith would have been less, because he didn't have faith that He was talking to the true God. Faith is trusting in God for literally everything.

And I don't know what it is exactly, but it turns my stomach that you think Abraham would have ever questioned God. The God of Abraham is eternal and more to the point, beyond us. Even if He weren't the strict definiton of benevolent (which He is) we still would never be even close to a place where we could judge or question Him.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, all that means is that there is a purpose to life and a purpose to the imperfection of it. And tbh, I find your reasoning that because the world is imperfect ipso facto God is imperfect is lazy, at best.

It isn't lazy; it's unavoidable.

- Who else can responsibility for the state of the world be traced back to? Even Satan is ultimately a creation of God, no?
- What circumstance has happened since the dawn of time that God did not foresee?
- What undesirable outcome could God not have avoided?

If Christian theology is true, then the universe is a perfectly faithful reflection of God's will down to the smallest detail. If there's any imperfection in the universe, thrn this reflects back on God's will, and by extension on God himself.

And I don't think you understand what faith is, Because yes his faith would have been less, because he didn't have faith that He was talking to the true God. Faith is trusting in God for literally everything.

And I don't know what it is exactly, but it turns my stomach that you think Abraham would have ever questioned God. The God of Abraham is eternal and more to the point, beyond us. Even if He weren't the strict definiton of benevolent (which He is) we still would never be even close to a place where we could judge or question Him.

So in your mind, if an entity appeared before you claiming to be God and demanded that you do something that, on its face, was completely evil, this wouldn't make you stop and wonder whether this was really God?

If not, then I'd say you have a pretty low opinion of God. (Edit: or maybe a pretty high opinion of yourself... i.e. that you can't be fooled)

Edit: why would it turn your stomach for Abraham to make the same conclusion that I've heard countless times from Christians, and the conclusion that we reach by the end of the story: that a loving God wouldn't want Isaac sacrificed?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

To narrow down on something:

And I don't know what it is exactly, but it turns my stomach that you think Abraham would have ever questioned God. The God of Abraham is eternal and more to the point, beyond us. Even if He weren't the strict definiton of benevolent (which He is) we still would never be even close to a place where we could judge or question Him.

How would you tell the difference between God and Satan?

I'm completely serious. Say you're confronted by an entity claiming to be God. It has supernatural power beyond your comprehension (though as a mortal human being, that comprehension is limited). What do you base your judgement on to decide whether this truly is God or whether it's Satan pretending to be God?

Based on what you've said, you can't base your decision on the morality of what this entity is telling you - you've argued that a faithful believer should be ready to do even apparently evil acts if commanded by God.

So... how do you decide whether this really is God commanding you? How do you avoid being duped by Satan if you're willing to do even things that your conscience tells you are evil?

 

[Thana]

To narrow down on something:


How would you tell the difference between God and Satan?

I'm completely serious. Say you're confronted by an entity claiming to be God. It has supernatural power beyond your comprehension (though as a mortal human being, that comprehension is limited). What do you base your judgement on to decide whether this truly is God or whether it's Satan pretending to be God?

Based on what you've said, you can't base your decision on the morality of what this entity is telling you - you've argued that a faithful believer should be ready to do even apparently evil acts if commanded by God.

So... how do you decide whether this really is God commanding you? How do you avoid being duped by Satan if you're willing to do even things that your conscience tells you are evil?

Easily. One gives you conviction and the other condemnation.
But we (Followers of Jesus) were also given The Helper, So that these things would never be an issue. So in other words, You know that you know because you know.

 

[Thana]

It isn't lazy; it's unavoidable.

- Who else can responsibility for the state of the world be traced back to? Even Satan is ultimately a creation of God, no?
- What circumstance has happened since the dawn of time that God did not foresee?
- What undesirable outcome could God not have avoided?

If Christian theology is true, then the universe is a perfectly faithful reflection of God's will down to the smallest detail. If there's any imperfection in the universe, thrn this reflects back on God's will, and by extension on God himself.


So in your mind, if an entity appeared before you claiming to be God and demanded that you do something that, on its face, was completely evil, this wouldn't make you stop and wonder whether this was really God?

If not, then I'd say you have a pretty low opinion of God. (Edit: or maybe a pretty high opinion of yourself... i.e. that you can't be fooled)

Edit: why would it turn your stomach for Abraham to make the same conclusion that I've heard countless times from Christians, and the conclusion that we reach by the end of the story: that a loving God wouldn't want Isaac sacrificed?

But God's will is for there to be imperfection but that doesn't imply that His will is imperfect. That's not sound reasoning that's just assuming.

And the idea of Evil is so relative, Especially considering that human sacrifice would not have been considered evil in Abraham's time. And again, God is beyond such arbitrary concepts of morality.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But God's will is for there to be imperfection but that doesn't imply that His will is imperfect. That's not sound reasoning that's just assuming.

How can it be God's will that God's will not be fulfilled? Your position is inherently contradictory.

And the idea of Evil is so relative, Especially considering that human sacrifice would not have been considered evil in Abraham's time. And again, God is beyond such arbitrary concepts of morality.

If humanity doesn't have knowledge of good and evil, then what was all that stuff in the Garden of Eden all about?

The necessity of Christ's sacrifice is predicated on the idea that we know good and evil: you can't have the "Second Adam" without the first Adam. Take that away and you lose the whole foundation of Christianity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Easily. One gives you conviction and the other condemnation.

What's that supposed to mean?

But we (Followers of Jesus) were also given The Helper, So that these things would never be an issue. So in other words, You know that you know because you know.

And Satan isn't capable of masquerading as "the Helper", too (at least well enough to fool a human)?

 

[Thana]

How can it be God's will that God's will not be fulfilled? Your position is inherently contradictory.


If humanity doesn't have knowledge of good and evil, then what was all that stuff in the Garden of Eden all about?

The necessity of Christ's sacrifice is predicated on the idea that we know good and evil: you can't have the "Second Adam" without the first Adam. Take that away and you lose the whole foundation of Christianity.

You're not really making much sense to me, All I said was the evil is relative that doesn't mean it does not exist and we're incapable of knowing any of it.

 

[Shad]

If God is above morality then we can not judge any of his acts or commands. You just eliminated one of the only tools we have available to judge a view. You have further reduced belief in God down to blind faith which is irrational.

 

[Thana]

What's that supposed to mean?

You can tell one from the other because one does not ever condemn but the other one does.

And Satan isn't capable of masquerading as "the Helper", too (at least well enough to fool a human)?

No, not that he'd ever bother. Satan isn't all that mysterious or convoluted.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're not really making much sense to me, All I said was the evil is relative that doesn't mean it does not exist and we're incapable of knowing any of it.

Then what was your point about evil being relative all about? I thought you were making some sort of argument about how evil things might actually be good in some way we can't see.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You can tell one from the other because one does not ever condemn but the other one does.

So if it condemns, it's God?

No, not that he'd ever bother. Satan isn't all that mysterious or convoluted.

So you ARE arguing that you can't be fooled. Hmm.

 

[Thana]

Then what was your point about evil being relative all about? I thought you were making some sort of argument about how evil things might actually be good in some way we can't see.

Yes, but that doesn't negate the existence of evil though does it?

So if it condemns, it's God?

Obviously not.

So you ARE arguing that you can't be fooled. Hmm.

No, I'm just saying that he isn't exactly all that subtle.

 

[McDoogins]

Have you ever been imprisioned? If you have you never take freedom for granted again.

If there was no problems in this world then there would be no obstacles to overcome, therefore there would be no meaningful goals, therefore this life would be bland and empty.

I haven't been imprisoned, but I have been in psychiatric wards for weeks at a time. The effect of not taking something for granted wears off quicker then you would think.

In either case all I gained from it was bad memories.

This is my point. Abrahamic religions don't have a monopoly over the God concept. By that I mean there are so many other religions and ideas of what divinity actually is. If Christians, Jews etc. are wrong about God and if their beliefs are just fiction, it doesn't mean that there isn't a God/gods.
According to my beliefs/religion, there is no such thing as satan since the concept of satan is endemic to Abrahamic religions.

Just to clarify, are you only addressing this thread to people from Abrahamic religions? Because my posts are basically to point out that ideas of reality aren't limited to The Bible or Nothing. There are so many different ideas of reality, so many different scriptures and concepts and religions. I find that I agree with your opinion of the Abrahamic God, but I would not find any justification for thinking that God was 'bad', according to the concept of God in my religion.

I hope that makes sense. But I also realise now that you might only be intending this thread for Abrahamics, which I respect - just let me know

Yes, I suppose so, I was born and raised in America so the most popular concept of god is an Abrahamic one.

First off, the existence of God doesn't depend on how good or bad He may be.

Secondly, if God is real, is it surprising that an omnipotent, omniscient Being does not necessarily agree with your own subjective perceptions of right and wrong?

The flood that God brought killed wicked people, that part is made very clear in Genesis. The wages of sin is death.

God tested Abraham to kill Isaac, but of course Isaac didn't die, did he? If God is truly a person whom we must all worship and obey above all things, who is deserving of all honour and praise, why is this such an objectionable test of faith? Abraham had trusted God and God had blessed him immensely in his life. Remember that it was God who caused the miracle of Isaac's birth in the first place, coming from Sarah's barren womb.

God tests His saints frequently, and they are ultimately for their good, building character and perseverance, and a stronger faith than before. The same goes for Job, and he was blessed greatly after his trials.

The world is fallen, the Holocaust is horrific, and is a testament to the evil of mankind. Mankind rebelled against God, and so we live in a corrupt world with corrupt people, who slaughter and hurt. God promises to make all things new, but sin exists in this world because of us, and is a testament to how far we fell.

Why is a life form ingesting another life form necessarily evil? For an atheist, good and evil are entirely subjective, you can't really claim anything is particularly good or evil. I'd also bring up that this is a fallen world once again.

Animals can kill us in a second's notice once again, because we live in a fallen world, things aren't going the way they were supposed to in the beginning, in the perfect world, but God promises to renew all things when Jesus comes to reign.

I never said gods existence was dependent on him being good, I was just stating that I thought the more important question was if he was a good god rather then the question of his existence.

I don't think it really matters what god thinks is wrong or right. In accordance to Issac; you can't treat people like you own them just because you supposedly keep watch over them and created them. If a grandfather asked his son to sacrifice his grandchild the grandfathers morality would be put into question. God doesn't get special treatment, his morality is on the table like everyone elses. Furthermore, if it weren't what purpose would satan serve? Doesn't tempting Abraham to kill Issac sound something more like satan would want to test? The whole thing sounds fishy to me. The right thing isn't the right just because a god says it is so, it must also be the right thing.

Gods morality isn't something that isn't unapproachable or understandable by humans, if it were he wouldn't even bother with making humans capable of understanding morality in the first place. Why allow a species to understand morality and then handicap them but not allowing them to fully understand gods concept of morality.

An animal eating another animal isn't really evil, I will give you that but it could still be unneeded if god had the foresight to create just one creature to inhabit earth that would live perhaps like plants, living off solar energy. And you can claim something is good or evil, that is the entire point of religion, it's just that in the cases I have mentioned god committed evil or selfish acts seemingly for his own amusement. Lastly, we only live in a fallen world because god decided to create the tree and apple Adam and Eve weren't supposed to eat in the first place.

I suppose gods biggest mistake was giving humans free will.

I think you are judging God on the thinking of ancient people about God. I think we need to move towards more sophisticated understandings and not think the question is just "God of the Bible" or 'Atheism'. I think the deeper answer is 'neither of the above'.

That's not a bad idea. The big problem though is the bible was written in ancient times, and as far as I know there is no modernized bible that takes out human sacrifices, stoning, and the like. If there were I might consider reading the old bible and new bible back to back.

 

[ether-ore]

Aside from God being Our Heavenly Father; God is also our judge. It was He who had the power to send us here to experience mortality on this earth in the first place. We could not have gotten here if it were not for Him. We are here to be tested. As our judge, God decides how we are to be tested and whether or not we have passed that test. God, therefrore, can at any time remove us from the test facility (this earth) and return us to our previous condition. This life is not our possession. We have our lives on loan from God since it is evident that we all die. God decides when the loan is to be called due.

Dying, as painful as if can be for some, is but a door we pass through. We are eternal beings and cannot be destroyed anymore than matter can be destroyed. We like matter can only change state. Because we are eternal and will have no end, we likewise had no beginning. We have always existed, but in a much limited condition. God's love is helping us progress beyond a state we could never have attained on our own. However, since we are eternal beings, the free agency of our intelligence is our natural condition. God did not give us free will. We have always had it. It can be said though that God allowed us to keep it as part of the agreement when He made us His children.

 

[Awoon]

What's your take on the Abraham and Isaac story? I haven't seen any interpretation where God comes off as good.

Let's take as given that God didn't actually want Isaac dead - fair enough. But then why would God have told Abraham to sacrifice his son?

It couldn't be for God's benefit - an all-knowing god would already have known what sort of man Abraham was.

So, presumably, it was for the benefit of Abraham (or some other human). God wanted people to see that the fact Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son was considered by God to be worthy of praise.

The only message I can take from this is that a follower of God should be prepared to set aside his conscience and do seemingly horrific things if he thinks God has asked for them, and that God *will* sometimes ask for seemingly horrific things that he expects you to do.

What other message do you take from the story?

Or Abraham was debating in his own mind if God really needed/wanted humans to sacrifice their children. His mind created the dream in which Abe took his Son to the point of sacrifice and was stopped. The answer Abraham received was NO.

BTW I've had a teacher say if Abraham was really going to sacrifice Issac, the whole family and people living around Abraham's clan would have all been invited to the event. Human sacrifice was a big deal back then. He wouldn't have gone out to do it with only his Son.

We still sacrifice our children for wars.

Take that as an answer or leave it.

 

[Thief]

To narrow down on something:


How would you tell the difference between God and Satan?

I'm completely serious. Say you're confronted by an entity claiming to be God. It has supernatural power beyond your comprehension (though as a mortal human being, that comprehension is limited). What do you base your judgement on to decide whether this truly is God or whether it's Satan pretending to be God?

Please repost this as an op.

 

[Seeker of Ka]

Aside from God being Our Heavenly Father; God is also our judge. It was He who had the power to send us here to experience mortality on this earth in the first place. We could not have gotten here if it were not for Him. We are here to be tested. As our judge, God decides how we are to be tested and whether or not we have passed that test. God, therefrore, can at any time remove us from the test facility (this earth) and return us to our previous condition. This life is not our possession. We have our lives on loan from God since it is evident that we all die. God decides when the loan is to be called due.

Dying, as painful as if can be for some, is but a door we pass through. We are eternal beings and cannot be destroyed anymore than matter can be destroyed. We like matter can only change state. Because we are eternal and will have no end, we likewise had no beginning. We have always existed, but in a much limited condition. God's love is helping us progress beyond a state we could never have attained on our own. However, since we are eternal beings, the free agency of our intelligence is our natural condition. God did not give us free will. We have always had it. It can be said though that God allowed us to keep it as part of the agreement when He made us His children.

In Abrahmic Thelogy, scripture shows how the world was MADE and humans MADE in Yahweh's image.

So according to Abrahamic Theology humans where created. Since in Abrahamic Theology humans where made by Yahweh then that means that he did give humans free will and he could have made humans in a way that allowed them to progress to a better state on their own.