Is God really THE god?

[RESOLUTION]

Hi Segev

Do you really have a way of checking the truth about the earth being flat?
I found that interesting that you do not realise the amount of faith that takes on your part in other humans.
The world being flat is what we are told. Until television how would you know?
How do you know everything we are told is true?

Reality/Faith is something which you choose to believe outside your senses.
If your senses could tell you the earth was not flat then you would be 100% sure of what you believe and have
been told.
Our senses cannot tell us the earth is not flat. You have to rely on what man teaches you.

Though we find God through Spiritual life your own being and your own senses cannot reveal God to others.

"Who said it was the Spirit of Truth?", you ask!

John 16:13 Christ did.


You asked what it meant about Elisha...

The Spiritual things of God in this world are not preceived in the normal flesh. The person with Elisha did not see
what he, Elisha saw in the spiritual world from God. So it is with those born of the Spirit. They know and see the things
which just flesh do not see.

RESOLUTION SAID:

You are limited to the eyes of the flesh because you are spiritually dead outside of faith in God and Christ Jesus.

So spirituality without God is not spirituality (or a dead spirituality)?
I Think some people might think differently.

I believe you are not able to separate your own reality from the reality of God and those in Spirit within the world.

If the normal man could see the things of God in the world then faith would not be required.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Thats not it.
I Know love, hate, fear and all.
I can assume I know what you refer to when you say love.

So your proof of God being good is that God said Love your enemy?

Actually I did not say anywhere that Jesus was God. I just said I believe Jesus's words about God, the Father/

 

[soulsurvivor]

Interesting. I was going to let you have the last word about that, but then I slept on it.
Many of the thoughts I had I suspect are beyond your understanding so I shouldn't say what they were.

Here is one to think about, if you can.

Maybe what was written really is the will of The True God Creator just like you say all of the words are, but they all really didn't happen as stated exactly. Can you consider that they are words given to us like a test to see who will believe and lean on hearsay. If you would check out History, you might notice that nothing good comes from believing in and trusting hearsay.

I don't think God plays games like that (some kind of test). There is nothing wrong in using your intuition to decide which 'hearsay' is the truth - I am not sure what history you are referring to. BTW, I don't believe everything in the NT is exactly as stated - the resurrection was probably not totally physical. The body of Jesus that his followers saw was probably some kind of apparition that looked real.

 

[Segev Moran]

Actually I did not say anywhere that Jesus was God. I just said I believe Jesus's words about God, the Father/

Ok. So Jesus saying "Love your enemies" proves God as Good?

 

[soulsurvivor]

Ok. So Jesus saying "Love your enemies" proves God as Good?

I am not trying to prove anything.

I said that I believe in the words of Jesus as given in the NT and Jesus says that God, the Father is a loving, caring God.

 

[chinu]

What is one's source of knowing God without any scripture or information that doesn't come from the Entity itself?

Okay, from now onwards call "Him" DOG instead of GOD
Now, if the core of your heart believe/think that "DOG" exists. (Because there's something/someone who has created the world that I see all around me) That is the source.

Now, if the question is GOD or DOG is Good or Bad ? and How ?
Again focus on the core of your heart and think !....!
If "He" is Good.. Than, it is okay.
But, if "He" is Bad.. Than, you are in a very big trouble which not going to get end ever.

Now, the only option is.. God or Dog is always good. The only thing we people don't know is.. what is Good according to "Him"

Cheers!

 

[savagewind]

I don't think God plays games like that (some kind of test).

There are many people who believe God's will was that Jesus be tested. Do you not believe that?

 

[soulsurvivor]

There are many people who believe God's will was that Jesus be tested. Do you not believe that?

Sorry my mistake - I thought you were saying we were all being tested by God, by presenting Jesus to us. Instead, I think Jesus brought a message to us from God.

Jesus himself may have been tested by God with all the persecution and suffering he had to undergo, but it seems like he successfully passed all the tests.

 

[savagewind]

Sorry my mistake - I thought you were saying we were all being tested by God, by presenting Jesus to us. Instead, I think Jesus brought a message to us from God.

Absolutely not! Jesus is the first real good thing that ever happened to me!

So I looked up what the Bible says about being tested and I realize that all the suffering which is being mentioned in scripture seems to be associated with Satan. But, I keep it in mind that much of people's public speculation about anything is PROPAGANDA. I am not being paranoid about that.

What I meant was that I presume there is a test of which God has allowed some words to come forth (as though true words) that will mislead those people who are not genuine.

Jesus himself may have been tested by God with all the persecution and suffering he had to undergo, but it seems like he successfully passed all the tests.

Yes, it seems so.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I deduce quite the opposite.

What is "the opposite" in your case?
Seriously, I'd love to know.
Do you deduce that there is no Conscious Creator; G-d; etc.?
Do you deduce that everything is just random chance with no meaning or purpose?
Or something else?

 

[Desert Snake]

How can you know?

Lets say the bible (OT, NT or whatever depiction of Mono-God there is) is true. that indeed these are the words of the one we call God.
Everything we know about God is based on God itself.

Maybe God is not really THE god? rather on of other gods?
Maybe he is actually an evil God and only pretends to be good?

What is one's source of knowing God without any scripture or information that doesn't come from the Entity itself?

God concepts differ within religious paradigms that stem from the same source, however we know who God is from tradition, the Prophets, and sometimes personal religious experiences. Now, i have to agree that someone might adhere to a different deity. Ok, then you would have to ask them that question. Some gnostics think that G-d is a evil entity or demiurge, so then do you think this? That question is moot, if you dont think there are gods in the first place. Hence we arrive at the fact that you did not present an argument.

 

[Segev Moran]

What is "the opposite" in your case?
Do you deduce that there is no Conscious Creator; G-d; etc.?

I would say it becomes less probable as we discover more.

Do you deduce that everything is just random chance with no meaning or purpose?

Why random?
Do you know for a fact there is a meaning for the universe?

Or something else?

Yes.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I would say it becomes less probable as we discover more.

Why random?
Do you know for a fact there is a meaning for the universe?

Yes.

Well, thanks for responding. However, I don't really understand your response.
What do you "deduce?" How?

Why do think G-d; et al, is less probable as we discover more?

Perhaps "random" is the wrong word. It would appear to me that something must either be accidental; happening purely by chance; with no consciousness behind it or, something happens purposefully; with conscious intent which I would call "ordered."
And, yes, as I have found no evidence that complex ordered systems can happen accidentally, I must conclude that there is a conscious design or "meaning" to the universe.

So? Nu? What is the "something else?"

 

[Segev Moran]

Well, thanks for responding. However, I don't really understand your response.
What do you "deduce?" How?

The more neuro-science is advanced, the more we understand how our brain "manufacture" our feelings, senses, thoughts and basically everything we experience as humans.

Things that were solely "God" (like sickness, mental conditions, weird mutations) are today much more understood and can be treated.
So to me it seems that either the explanation that a sickness is a "demon" that possess a person is either based on "idiocracy", or that that we found a way to "beat" god and his likes. (I go with the first)

Why do think G-d; et al, is less probable as we discover more?

Because out of most of things that were claimed to be a supernatural phenomenon, so far all were proven to be just a misunderstanding or a lack of understanding the phenomena.
So the more advanced we are, the less we have divine mysteries.
So if 1000 years ago, i would ask you, what is more probable: that the sun is a boiling star and there are billions just like it, or is it a godly and divine creation, you will probably answer the first.
Today, you will probably answer the latter.

Perhaps "random" is the wrong word.

Indeed it is

It would appear to me that something must either be accidental; happening purely by chance; with no consciousness behind it or, something happens purposefully; with conscious intent which I would call "ordered."

Artificial things are ordered, natural things appears to be ordered, yet they are not.

And, yes, as I have found no evidence that complex ordered systems can happen accidentally, I must conclude that there is a conscious design or "meaning" to the universe.

Can you please be more clear about what do you mean when you say accidentally?

So? Nu? What is the "something else?"

Yes, i think the universe is something else then randomness, although there are many apparent random things we encounter.
In evolution, for example, randomness is only a very small part of the process, but evolution is not random.
It is not accidental also.
It is a process that is inevitable once you have a multiplying organism.
How we have a duplicating/replicating/multiplying organism? No one knows yet (Not even you)

 

[Moishe3rd]

The more neuro-science is advanced, the more we understand how our brain "manufacture" our feelings, senses, thoughts and basically everything we experience as humans.

Things that were solely "God" (like sickness, mental conditions, weird mutations) are today much more understood and can be treated.
So to me it seems that either the explanation that a sickness is a "demon" that possess a person is either based on "idiocracy", or that that we found a way to "beat" god and his likes. (I go with the first)

Because out of most of things that were claimed to be a supernatural phenomenon, so far all were proven to be just a misunderstanding or a lack of understanding the phenomena.
So the more advanced we are, the less we have divine mysteries.
So if 1000 years ago, i would ask you, what is more probable: that the sun is a boiling star and there are billions just like it, or is it a godly and divine creation, you will probably answer the first.
Today, you will probably answer the latter.

Indeed it is

Artificial things are ordered, natural things appears to be ordered, yet they are not.

Can you please be more clear about what do you mean when you say accidentally?

Yes, i think the universe is something else then randomness, although there are many apparent random things we encounter.
In evolution, for example, randomness is only a very small part of the process, but evolution is not random.
It is not accidental also.
It is a process that is inevitable once you have a multiplying organism.
How we have a duplicating/replicating/multiplying organism? No one knows yet (Not even you)

Okay.
As far as I know, left on its own, Everything tends to become less ordered; more disordered; it decays.
I don't understand how people can look at complex systems from the realm of physics; matter; energy; etc. to the realm of biology; life; cells; humans; etc. and presume that it all just somehow happened with no conscious intention.
Ordinary people would not look at anything in the realm of human endeavor and believe that it just magically came about with no intention or thought.
And, the Universe; Life; Man; etc. is far, far more complex than simple man made processes.
But, okay. It appears that you are more skeptical about "Purpose" than I.
Be well.

 

[WINDINWATERS]

How can you know?

Lets say the bible (OT, NT or whatever depiction of Mono-God there is) is true. that indeed these are the words of the one we call God.
Everything we know about God is based on God itself.

Maybe God is not really THE god? rather on of other gods?
Maybe he is actually an evil God and only pretends to be good?

What is one's source of knowing God without any scripture or information that doesn't come from the Entity itself?

Research the source of this word God, it is Gad the whore of Babylon
Here is a Greek image of the Gads pronounced Gawds they are the usurpers, blood lusting devils of filth.

 

[Segev Moran]

Okay.
As far as I know, left on its own, Everything tends to become less ordered; more disordered; it decays.

If you refer to things that are artificial, it might be true. but when it comes to nature, so far, the only specie that can "temper" with nature, is humans.
I can assure you, that if our planet for example, was left alone, it would be much more "healthy" then when being left on its own.

I don't understand how people can look at complex systems from the realm of physics; matter; energy; etc. to the realm of biology; life; cells; humans; etc. and presume that it all just somehow happened with no conscious intention.

It is actually quite logic.
but you need to understand that this complexity wasn't that complex to begin with.
The complexity took many years to become what it is today.
But the more we discover about life, about physics, about chemistry etc, the less "impossible" it becomes for us to fully understand the process.
it might seem complex and pre-defined, but it is defined as it advances.

You can think of it with the following example:

It can seem that the stalactites cave is a very complex and defined shape . It almost looks like an entire world with these complex structures.
But when we learn about it, when we understand the process that makes these shapes, we understand that it is a very simple process that over thousand and sometimes millions of years
created these amazing structures.

You can assume that someone that was never learned or encountered stalactites, will easily mistake these to be an artificial structure.

But this is how it looks at the beginning:

Ordinary people would not look at anything in the realm of human endeavor and believe that it just magically came about with no intention or thought.

Obviously. but nature is not a human manufactured thing.
You assume that since humans create things, someone must have created them.
The fact is, we don't really know.

And, the Universe; Life; Man; etc. is far, far more complex than simple man made processes.

Today
A few billions of years ago, everything was much simpler.
Some would even say, as simple as one particle

But, okay. It appears that you are more skeptical about "Purpose" than I.

Do you agree that there can be an infinite number of purposes to something? yet there can be only one explanation how this thing came to be?
So i start with answering what i can. when i'll have all the answers, i can assure you it will be much easier for me to understand the purpose.

Be well.

Cheers you 2

 

[Moishe3rd]

If you refer to things that are artificial, it might be true. but when it comes to nature, so far, the only specie that can "temper" with nature, is humans.
I can assure you, that if our planet for example, was left alone, it would be much more "healthy" then when being left on its own.

It is actually quite logic.
but you need to understand that this complexity wasn't that complex to begin with.
The complexity took many years to become what it is today.
But the more we discover about life, about physics, about chemistry etc, the less "impossible" it becomes for us to fully understand the process.
it might seem complex and pre-defined, but it is defined as it advances.

You can think of it with the following example:

It can seem that the stalactites cave is a very complex and defined shape . It almost looks like an entire world with these complex structures.
But when we learn about it, when we understand the process that makes these shapes, we understand that it is a very simple process that over thousand and sometimes millions of years
created these amazing structures.

You can assume that someone that was never learned or encountered stalactites, will easily mistake these to be an artificial structure.

But this is how it looks at the beginning:

Obviously. but nature is not a human manufactured thing.
You assume that since humans create things, someone must have created them.
The fact is, we don't really know.

Today
A few billions of years ago, everything was much simpler.
Some would even say, as simple as one particle

Do you agree that there can be an infinite number of purposes to something? yet there can be only one explanation how this thing came to be?
So i start with answering what i can. when i'll have all the answers, i can assure you it will be much easier for me to understand the purpose.

Cheers you 2

I need to focus on single points in order to discuss.
The Earth is a rather complex organism.
By your lights, the Earth must be as healthy as it can be BECAUSE of Man - this "accidental animal" which must be part of the Earth's accidental evolution.
This would be more logical than the Earth being "healthier" without Man.

As far as learning "how things work" and why Man does what we do, Jews have been studying these questions for well over 3300 years.

Dismissing over 2000 years of written analysis that references the previous 3000 years of Torah and G-d as an argument between "Big light in sky slated to appear in East. Sonic booms scare minority groups in Sector B. And there's hamburger all over the highway in Mystic, Connecticut." (-- Firesign Theatre)...
And whether or not G-d exits...
Is a facile argument.

The questions from the fundamental "does G-d exist" to what does it mean to worship idols or to not murder other people, have indeed been studied and pondered and analyzed and argued over in excruciating detail and minutiae for thousands of years by extremely intelligent and exacting Jews.

Not so easily dismissed as your great balls of fire.

 

[Segev Moran]

I need to focus on single points in order to discuss.

Gladly

The Earth is a rather complex organism.

Earth is not an organism.
Earth is hosting organisms.

By your lights

I assume POV?

the Earth must be

Already wrong.
The earth must not be anything. the earth is as it is.

as healthy as it can be

Again, no. earth has no agenda.

BECAUSE of Man

No. I think you are mixing it up with creationists.
they indeed believe that the earth must be perfect for and because humans exist.

- this "accidental animal"

No and yes.
yes animal.
far from accidental.

which must be part of the Earth's accidental evolution.

Earths evolution i will assume you mean how earth was formed?

This would be more logical than the Earth being "healthier" without Man.

Watch the movie Aftermath opulation Zero
It will give you a sense of what i mean.

As far as learning "how things work" and why Man does what we do, Jews have been studying these questions for well over 3300 years.

Indeed they did and do.
and i can promise you they are doing an amazing philosophical work.
the Jewish religion is also far more advanced than any other religion i have ever encountered.
(many unfortunately don't really know the Jewish religion, most think it is the "Tanach" and nothing more [which is far from the truth]).
Yet it is what it is. it is a collection philosophical books and writings, dealing with enormous number of issues.

Dismissing over 2000 years of written analysis that references the previous 3000 years of Torah and G-d as an argument between "Big light in sky slated to appear in East. Sonic booms scare minority groups in Sector B. And there's hamburger all over the highway in Mystic, Connecticut." (-- Firesign Theatre)...
And whether or not G-d exits...
Is a facile argument.

when did i give you the sense i am disregarding the complexity of religion? religion is as complex as there are people on the planet

The questions from the fundamental "does G-d exist" to what does it mean to worship idols or to not murder other people, have indeed been studied and pondered and analyzed and argued over in excruciating detail and minutiae for thousands of years by extremely intelligent and exacting Jews.

It sounds like you suggest only jews pondered on those questions how knowledgeable are you with Buddhism?

Not so easily dismissed as your great balls of fire.

Indeed it wasn't an easy thing for me. took me quite a few years to understand the universe i live in.
it me quite a few more to stop believing what i was taught as a child.

i hope you are not suggesting that a complexity of something proves it is right

 

[Moishe3rd]

Gladly

Earth is not an organism.
Earth is hosting organisms.

I assume POV?

Already wrong.
The earth must not be anything. the earth is as it is.

Again, no. earth has no agenda.

No. I think you are mixing it up with creationists.
they indeed believe that the earth must be perfect for and because humans exist.

No and yes.
yes animal.
far from accidental.

Earths evolution i will assume you mean how earth was formed?

Watch the movie Aftermath opulation Zero
It will give you a sense of what i mean.

Indeed they did and do.
and i can promise you they are doing an amazing philosophical work.
the Jewish religion is also far more advanced than any other religion i have ever encountered.
(many unfortunately don't really know the Jewish religion, most think it is the "Tanach" and nothing more [which is far from the truth]).
Yet it is what it is. it is a collection philosophical books and writings, dealing with enormous number of issues.

when did i give you the sense i am disregarding the complexity of religion? religion is as complex as there are people on the planet

It sounds like you suggest only jews pondered on those questions how knowledgeable are you with Buddhism?

Indeed it wasn't an easy thing for me. took me quite a few years to understand the universe i live in.
it me quite a few more to stop believing what i was taught as a child.

i hope you are not suggesting that a complexity of something proves it is right

You suggested the Earth would be "much more healthy left on its own." As Man is the only force not leaving Earth "on its own," this suggests that the Earth is a Something that would be better off without Man.
For you to dissect that response on my part appears to refute your supposition that "Earth" is a Something that would be healthier without Man.
I was suggesting that if "Man" is not Created; is not Something Special apart from the rest of the Universe, including Earth, then Man is a natural organism that populates and uses the Earth exactly in the natural manner as does all the Universe.
You appear to want to refute that premise by postulating either the Earth or Man would be "better off" NOT using the Earth as we do.
Why?
Either what we do is normal and natural OR, what we do is different than what everything else does.

I have knowledge of the history and practices of most mainstream religions, including Buddhism.
And, no, neither Buddhist writings; nor Hindu writings; nor Confucian writings; nor Muslim writings; nor any other major religion's writings, including earlier civilization's such as Greek, Roman, Sumerian, etc., have anywhere near the complexity and depth of the last 2,000 years of Jewish writings.

Your comparisons with "what you were taught as a child" are (and I write this without ill intent) rather child-like.
When you write (which is what I was humorously referring to above):
"So if 1000 years ago, i would ask you, what is more probable: that the sun is a boiling star and there are billions just like it, or is it a godly and divine creation, you will probably answer the first." - This is a child like view of religion.

People, in general, believe all sorts of silly things; child like things; ridiculous things; even today in your modern world of neuroscience.
Scientism; Climate Change; Environmentalism; etc. are the new religions of "Thinking Man," while the rest of the peasants who do not think and who formerly wondered about the boiling star believe in the divinity of their celebrities or video games or parties or their righteous indignation that people intrude upon them...

In the Torah and all that that entails, there is a Divine History that is quite unique in the History of Man.
Jews are a-historical.
That, combined with the sheer volume of research that Jews have given to This World, leads me to believe that, in the immortal words of Pharaoh (Yul Brynner) in "The Ten Commandments," -
"His G-d... IS G-d."