Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

[QuestioningMind]

Or is that what the government wants you to think?

If you think you know of a way for a society to successfully function without laws I'd love to hear it.

 

[Bree]

Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government. I think the book of Judges is a demonstration of this thematic material, as well as some parts of Samuel.
Is the Bible Anarchist?
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent.
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

Government is the opposition to Gods Kingdom played out in the material world.

Behind the scenes are warring demons who grapple each other for power over mankind. These 'fallen angels' have been at it since the beginning when they were present in the days of Noah. Now that they cannot materialise, they work at ruling mankind by proxy.

wars in the spirit world are played out on earth as wars between nations.

 

[ppp]

The leaders of Israel in the Bible, for the most part they were appointed by God Himself or a prophet from God. With the Judges, God made it crystal clear who He chose. God was with the ancient Israelites. He talked to them plainly and appointed rulers plainly. The situation of today is much different. We don’t have God directly appointing rulers. I think if we don’t have God doing it, we don’t have a right ourselves to appoint rulers. imo

I think it's the other way around. If there is a god, then he or she has no business appointing rulers. Or interfering at all.

 

[Valjean]

I've always felt that Jesus was advising his followers to stay out of worldly politics.

But to maintain religious politics.

 

[Sheldon]

Or is that what the government wants you to think?

What are you replacing government and laws with exactly? No taxes raised, no laws to protect us, means no police, no health care, no economy, no manufacturing or currency, back to a barter system then, though of course you could just buy a gun and take what you want.

This doesn't sound very appealing I must say.

 

[Sheldon]

Government is the opposition to Gods Kingdom played out in the material world.

Behind the scenes are warring demons who grapple each other for power over mankind. These 'fallen angels' have been at it since the beginning when they were present in the days of Noah. Now that they cannot materialise, they work at ruling mankind by proxy.

wars in the spirit world are played out on earth as wars between nations.

'kay, but that's just bizarre gibberish to me. I don't believe a single word of it.

 

[Father Heathen]

Some governments should not be upheld....Hitler, King George III, etc. This is what caused revolutions and wars.

The US is quickly turning into the same Monarchy that King George III had.

The US was formed to give rights (speech, assembly, religion), but now have lost the ability to sue HMOs (must arbitrate with the HMO as the arbitrator that finds itself guilty--successful arbitration is almost nonexistent). Our privacy has been invaded (W. Bush spied on everyone's phones....Google Eric Snowden for more info about this), and the Cancel Culture kicked off Elon Musk, Mike Lindell, and Donald Trump (to name a few). We are losing the rights that we fought for in the Revolutionary War against George III.

The Middle Class is almost non-existent, having been made poor, and more poor than ever find themselves homeless. The tax breaks for the rich are responsible. We are getting to the point that the rich buy houses and rent to the non-rich, and they can charge anything they want....another day older and deeper in debt (like the song says).

Well, yeah. I wasn't advocating for tyranny.

 

[Father Heathen]

Don't confuse government with rule of law. But who's law? G-d's or Man's? That is the question.

Not really. There are a myriad of religions; i.e. many laws of many gods, but all cultural constructs from the minds of men.

 

[Father Heathen]

I would suggest Christians do their best to not take any part in government, including voting.

That would be wonderful.

 

[Sheldon]

Some governments should not be upheld....Hitler, King George III, etc. This is what caused revolutions and wars.

The US is quickly turning into the same Monarchy that King George III had.

The US was formed to give rights (speech, assembly, religion), but now have lost the ability to sue HMOs (must arbitrate with the HMO as the arbitrator that finds itself guilty--successful arbitration is almost nonexistent). Our privacy has been invaded (W. Bush spied on everyone's phones....Google Eric Snowden for more info about this), and the Cancel Culture kicked off Elon Musk, Mike Lindell, and Donald Trump (to name a few). We are losing the rights that we fought for in the Revolutionary War against George III.

The Middle Class is almost non-existent, having been made poor, and more poor than ever find themselves homeless. The tax breaks for the rich are responsible. We are getting to the point that the rich buy houses and rent to the non-rich, and they can charge anything they want....another day older and deeper in debt (like the song says).

Whilst true, this is not an argument against government, only an argument against bad or tyrannical government. I fail to see how abolishing government would make the majority of people better off? The collapse of the global economy and industrialisation would probably kill billions, and those few left would be living some kind of dystopian nightmare, a feral existence where they fight over resources, without laws to protect anyone.

 

[Sheldon]

Don't confuse government with rule of law.

Who passes laws if not governments?

who's law? G-d's or Man's?

All laws are man made.

 

[Valjean]

Isn't government just family values writ large? Families are altruistic. They coöperate and help each other. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.

Community is just an expansion of this moral consideration, government is just further expansion.
Problems do arise, though, when the participant pool is large enough for exploiters to escape notice.

We're social animals. Solitary, slow, defenseless apes would never have survived on the plains of Africa. Only by banding together in mutual aid did humans survive.
The situation still obtains. We can achieve more comfort, prosperity and security by coöperating than by individual(istic) efforts.

 

[1213]

...
Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

I would not call it a sin, but I think it is a stupid mistake because:

This will be the manner of the king who shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them to him, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and they shall run before his chariots; and he will appoint them to him for captains of thousands, and captains of fifties; and he will set some to plow his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and the instruments of his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. He will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your olive groves, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. He will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. He will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your best young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your flocks: and you shall be his servants.
1 Sam. 8:11-17

 

[Wildswanderer]

The same type of government doesn't always work the same for all nations.

For example, just after WWII, China suffered from a bad economy. It had been a democracy. Inflation doubled every week, and that required a wheel barrow of money to buy groceries every few days. There were empty houses and unemployed. There were vacant farms and starving people. Someone had to connect these various disconnected things.

In came Communists (a mixture of a dictatorship and Socialism). Socialism is when the government pays for almost everything (free medical care, roads, military, etc). Republicans in America conflate Socialism with Communism, yet, they want public funds to pay for roads and the military, too. It costs too much for an individual to buy a nuke and keep it in his back yard. An effective military has to be government run.

When the Communists took over China, they said that they'd chop the heads off of anyone who inflates prices. They also chopped the heads off of anyone who opposed them. They were slicing open bellies of pregnant women, and they ran holding their guts and fetuses. The royal family ran out of the palace, the women ran with bound feet (symbolic of not needing to work because they were royal), and to get away from the invading Communist army. The peasants, who had already picked the last of the weed roots from the hillsides, fed their babies mud, knowing that they would not survive the night, but at least they would not cry from hunger until they died.

I am not condoning Communism, but for the Chinese, at that time, and in that condition, it worked, and everyone soon was able to eat and find housing. Since then, the Chinese economy thrived, and now has utterly conquered the US economy. Today, China is buying up US farm land and publicly traded companies on the stock market, as well as privately held companies. Living standards in China have greatly improved, and they have high tech gadgets and high tech military. While US missiles travel a slow mach 5, Chinese rockets were traveling at mach 10 over President Trump's aircraft carrier that he moved to the the China Sea. China forciblly took back Hong Kong, Taiwan, and chased foreign ships off of the China Sea.

Sure sounds like communism is great, no freedom and you might get your head lopped off, but hey, you get free food.

 

[Sheldon]

In ancient England, the king told the peasants that he was building a castle that they could hide in if the country was invaded. Vikings invaded, and the king thought that they might leave the peasants alone, and take over as their leader if they could defeat the castle, so they didn't allow peasants into the palace. There were stores of grain, water, and other necessary supplies in the palace, and the peasants were slaughtered.

So, promises of governments don't always hold up.

When governments protect themselves, and don't protect the people, it is time for change.

In the recent Russian attack of the Ukraine, you'd think that the Ukrainians would allow Russia to annex it. Ukrainians, after all, voted to join Russia a few years ago. But the Ukraininan leader doesn't want to give up power, and he is willing to lose buildings and lose people to defend his nation.

No one is arguing that there are evil governments, only asking why all governments are being labelled as evil? Also what is it people think will replace governments, unless you want a dystopian anarchy, where humans live a nightmarish feral existence, in a lawless fight for basic resources.

The Ukraine has been trying to join NATO for the last 15 years, and they are trying to join the EU. So I'm not sure where your claim they want to be part of Russia is from, you also seem to be implying Volodymyr Zelenskyy is stopping the people achieving that, for his own interests, which is just bizarre.

Again there is no doubt that some leaders and governments have been evil, this doesn't mean that all government is inherently evil, which is what I understood the OP to be suggesting. Again what is it the author thinks we will replace government with, how, and why? There are plenty of democracies in the world that look after their people on the whole pretty well.

 

[Sheldon]

People on disability SSI, find that they have to appease the arbitrary rules of inspectors in their homes. They are not allowed to have food boxes (like cereal) on their refrigerators, etc. Goverment has been getting petty and bossy, especially for the poor (and the poor are burgeoning).

Well you're talking about local government in the US there, which wasn't what I understood the OP to mean, also that doesn't sound evil to me, at best it is misguided, though I'd have to understand the rationale, if indeed that is a policy of the US government, which I seriously doubt.

Again What is it the OP author thinks we will replace government with, how will we do this, and why? What would it mean for the global economy, and capitalism, since feeding the global population is currently dependant on these, so to abandon or abolish them overnight would be impossible, and disastrous if it were possible.

 

[an anarchist]

I'm not sure what you think is evil about government, beyond your subjective religious interpretation?

If I were to remove my religious beliefs out of the conversation, I would still view the government the same. As an anarcho-capitalist, I see the existence of government a constant violation of the N.A.P. (Non aggression principle) Non-aggression principle - Wikipedia

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Government seems inevitable. Every time a group of humans are offered a choice between government and no government, it seems that a government is formed.
I am of the opinion that government is inherently evil and sinful. From my Christian perspective, it seems that the Bible is anti government rather than pro government...................
from a Christian perspective, humanity is sinful. Society is sinful. Do you suppose if Adam and Eve never sinned, that they would’ve made a government? I don’t think so. I think sin is a prerequisite for government. What is government? Is it not just a group of individuals exerting sinful control over others lives and resources? I don’t consent to a government dictating my life, I believe the individuals in government who are dictating my life are in sin because they do not have my consent. Is government a byproduct of our sinful nature?

I think you might find of interest Proverbs 29:2; Proverbs 29:12
There is says people mourn when the wicked rule and when a ruler pays attention to lies his servants are wicked.
It is righteousness that exalts a nation.... according to Proverbs 14:34.

There would have been No need for Adam and Eve to make a government because all they had to do was obey God.
God gave them only one law to obey as Not to eat the forbidden fruit. Obedience would have shown love and loyalty.
By breaking God's Law it was as if Adam took the Law out of God's hands and place the Law into man's hands.
Adam set up People Rule as superior to God's Rule, and only the passing of time would prove who was right.
Man's long history now shows that man has dominated man to man's injury, man's hurt.
Soon Jesus will act as that figurative 'stone' (Daniel 2:44-45) and bring an end to corrupted governments.

 

[an anarchist]

Again What is it the OP author thinks we will replace government with, how will we do this, and why? What would it mean for the global economy, and capitalism, since feeding the global population is currently dependant on these, so to abandon or abolish them overnight would be impossible, and disastrous if it were possible.

Well to put it simply I am an anarcho-capitalist and believe in Austrian economics.
Anarcho-capitalism - Wikipedia
Austrian School - Wikipedia
A voluntaryist society is what we argue for. No coerced interactions. There has been nearly a century of thought put forth on how this would work. A society based on the private property norm, where all property is privatized. Ancaps say this is the best for conflict avoidance.
The best I can personally do is regurgitate what much smarter people have theorized on this topic.
Ancapitalism and Austrian economics is in the realm of theory, as society always elect a government vs. having a voluntaryist society. So it might not even be possible, which brings us back to the OP.

 

[an anarchist]

If you think you know of a way for a society to successfully function without laws I'd love to hear it.

Anarcho-capitalism