Is Healthcare a "right" and should it have limits on how much is consumed and by whom?

[BSM1]

I think you misunderstand. The General Welfare Clause is not a specific grant of power, but a statement for the purpose qualifying the power to tax. My definition of the General Welfare Clause, was only a quoted interpretation that I agree with; "The General Welfare is interpreted by the Constitution to mean, "the concern of the Government for the Health, Peace, morality, and Safety of its citizens". I personally would have also included "equality" as well. Maybe you can tell me what your definition of terms like "Public Welfare", or "General Welfare" would be?

I wanted you to show me where the "General Welfare" included what you said.

Why? You must have some social empathy, right?

No. Next question?

 

[Lyndon]

Why? You must have some social empathy, right?

Good luck getting some people to care about anyone but themselves!!

 

[BSM1]

Good luck getting some people to care about anyone but themselves!!

Pot calling the kettle black, maybe?

 

[Woberts]

Pot calling the kettle black, maybe?

No argument, huh?

 

[tas8831]

Republicans are lousy at following the constitution!!

They also don't seem that great at following their professed religious teachings....

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I wanted you to show me where the "General Welfare" included what you said.




No. Next question?

Firstly, you ask for supreme court rulings, that supported the definition of "General Welfare". I gave you rulings that justified the policies that support the General Welfare Clause. I also said I was quoting a definition of the interpretation of the General Welfare Clause. There is no one all inclusive definition of this Clause in our Constitution(Art.1, Sect.8). Especially, since the General Welfare Clause includes health, safety. peace, and morality within its scope. So why do you keep claiming that it is MY definition, and where the exact words can be found? Again, it was a quoted interpretation of the meaning of the General Welfare Clause. Because there is no precise definition of this clause, only the rulings of the courts have given congress the tax and spending powers, to determine how this clause is interpreted. Why this unnecessary fixation?

I asked what your meaning of the Clause is. Nothing. I asked what specifically was ridiculous about my claims? Nothing. I asked if you thought everyone should have free healthcare coverage. Nothing. I demonstrated the many ways to guarantee and finance healthcare for all, indefinitely. Still nothing. I raised the question why universal affordable healthcare is accessible to all, in 99% of all industrialized countries except the US, and why. Not even a nibble. You seem only interested in definitions and terminologies, not issues and evidence.

This was a total mystery to me, until your last post. My comments are of no importance to anyone who has no social empathy. Someone who is selfish and disinterested in the wellbeing and welfare of others. Fortunately, our government and many secular humanists do not share your worldview.

 

[Lyndon]

His position of no empathy would be neither Buddhistic or Jesusonian!!

 

[BSM1]

Firstly, you ask for supreme court rulings, that supported the definition of "General Welfare". I gave you rulings that justified the policies that support the General Welfare Clause. I also said I was quoting a definition of the interpretation of the General Welfare Clause. There is no one all inclusive definition of this Clause in our Constitution(Art.1, Sect.8). Especially, since the General Welfare Clause includes health, safety. peace, and morality within its scope. So why do you keep claiming that it is MY definition, and where the exact words can be found? Again, it was a quoted interpretation of the meaning of the General Welfare Clause. Because there is no precise definition of this clause, only the rulings of the courts have given congress the tax and spending powers, to determine how this clause is interpreted. Why this unnecessary fixation?

I asked what your meaning of the Clause is. Nothing. I asked what specifically was ridiculous about my claims? Nothing. I asked if you thought everyone should have free healthcare coverage. Nothing. I demonstrated the many ways to guarantee and finance healthcare for all, indefinitely. Still nothing. I raised the question why universal affordable healthcare is accessible to all, in 99% of all industrialized countries except the US, and why. Not even a nibble. You seem only interested in definitions and terminologies, not issues and evidence.

This was a total mystery to me, until your last post. My comments are of no importance to anyone who has no social empathy. Someone who is selfish and disinterested in the wellbeing and welfare of others. Fortunately, our government and many secular humanists do not share your worldview.

You still haven't answered the question of where you have gotten the definition of "General Welfare".

Also, I have little empathy with those that whine about their station in life, life is not fair. Do what you can and move on; no one owes you any more than you've earned. If that offends your sensibilities, sorry. Evidently you only have sympathy for those you agree with.

 

[Lyndon]

General Welfare?? From the constitution, silly!!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think we should flip it. The rich should have crappy health care, with very limited access, and high deductibles. Many of them should have no healthcare at all. The poor should have unlimited access to health care, with no limitations, no co-payments, even access to highly experimental treatments if things haven't worked.

See how that sits.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

You still haven't answered the question of where you have gotten the definition of "General Welfare".

Also, I have little empathy with those that whine about their station in life, life is not fair. Do what you can and move on; no one owes you any more than you've earned. If that offends your sensibilities, sorry. Evidently you only have sympathy for those you agree with.

Where? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_welfare_clause , https://www.michaelmaharrey.com/constitution101-the-general-welfare-clause-820/ .
You still haven't answered my questions concerning, what was ridiculous about the meaning of the General Welfare Clause, and what is YOUR definition of this Clause. You have also not addressed any of the proposals, issues, solutions, and options I raised in my previous posts. Clearly your views are as one-dimensional as your opinions.

Does your lack of empathy extend to those new mothers whining about loosing their husbands in the recent wars? How about single parents whining about looking after their handicap children? Does it extend to veterans whining about their disabilities and lost limbs? How about those people that continue to whine about becoming a welfare state, and happily accepting whatever government handouts they can get their hands on? What about those hypocrites whining about illegal/legal immigrants, yet are quite happy to benefit from the goods and services that they provide(cleaners, chefs, housemaids, farm labourers, etc.)? Altruism, compassion, selflessness, and empathy is a part of the human condition. If any member of society is not well, them society is not well. Unless you are Stephen Miller, a narcissists, a psychopaths, a sociopath, or a follower of the Trumpanzee Doctrine, you must still have some empathy left for those less fortunate than yourself. I would gladly be a whiner any day, than a hypocrite everyday. So instead of whining about those that whine, maybe you can offer help or some meaningful suggestions to ease their sufferings? Or, is it much easier to be indignant and apathetic, for them being an annoyance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJYF3oE32g

Your outdated, ill-informed, overgeneralized, middleclass workingman's pseudo-sophistry, is toothless in a society that does not offer the same playing field for all. The top 1% of households own more wealth than the bottom 90% COMBINED. A country where almost half of the total wealth is inherited, and not self-made. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/06/the-richest-1-percent-now-owns-more-of-the-countrys-wealth-than-at-any-time-in-the-past-50-years/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4103fdb75e9b You are correct, people should not just whine, they should find ways to solve, alleviate, change, or simply accept their situation. They can also vote. It is the only weapon that the working poor have to improve their condition. But with the amount of disseminated misinformation by lobbyists, media, and vested interest groups, the poor can't rally around any issue that is directly related to their wellbeing. If you wanted to lower the price of gas at the pumps, then vote out those representatives that can't do it and vote in those that can. The prices at the pump will eventually be lowered. Power to the people, is more than just an old hippie slogan

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I think we should flip it. The rich should have crappy health care, with very limited access, and high deductibles. Many of them should have no healthcare at all. The poor should have unlimited access to health care, with no limitations, no co-payments, even access to highly experimental treatments if things haven't worked.

See how that sits.

You are missing the point. There is no need to "flip it". Healthcare is already available to everyone in 99% of the civilized world. No limitations, no payments, and it can be used for as long as necessary. There is only one standard of medical treatment, the only difference is that in some countries you can pay to jump the queue. If people with non-life threatening illnesses are willing to pay extra for esthetics and personal extras, then that should be their choice, and has nothing to do with the standard of medical care. Access to alternative treatment is also included in the healthcare coverage.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Healthcare is already available to everyone in 99% of the civilized world.

Tell that to the HIV infected in Africa who can't get medicine. Or for that matter, to diabetics right here in my own county who can't get insulin and are dying.

 

[BSM1]

Where? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_welfare_clause , https://www.michaelmaharrey.com/constitution101-the-general-welfare-clause-820/ .
You still haven't answered my questions concerning, what was ridiculous about the meaning of the General Welfare Clause, and what is YOUR definition of this Clause. You have also not addressed any of the proposals, issues, solutions, and options I raised in my previous posts. Clearly your views are as one-dimensional as your opinions.

Does your lack of empathy extend to those new mothers whining about loosing their husbands in the recent wars? How about single parents whining about looking after their handicap children? Does it extend to veterans whining about their disabilities and lost limbs? How about those people that continue to whine about becoming a welfare state, and happily accepting whatever government handouts they can get their hands on? What about those hypocrites whining about illegal/legal immigrants, yet are quite happy to benefit from the goods and services that they provide(cleaners, chefs, housemaids, farm labourers, etc.)? Altruism, compassion, selflessness, and empathy is a part of the human condition. If any member of society is not well, them society is not well. Unless you are Stephen Miller, a narcissists, a psychopaths, a sociopath, or a follower of the Trumpanzee Doctrine, you must still have some empathy left for those less fortunate than yourself. I would gladly be a whiner any day, than a hypocrite everyday. So instead of whining about those that whine, maybe you can offer help or some meaningful suggestions to ease their sufferings? Or, is it much easier to be indignant and apathetic, for them being an annoyance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJYF3oE32g

Your outdated, ill-informed, overgeneralized, middleclass workingman's pseudo-sophistry, is toothless in a society that does not offer the same playing field for all. The top 1% of households own more wealth than the bottom 90% COMBINED. A country where almost half of the total wealth is inherited, and not self-made. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/12/06/the-richest-1-percent-now-owns-more-of-the-countrys-wealth-than-at-any-time-in-the-past-50-years/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4103fdb75e9b You are correct, people should not just whine, they should find ways to solve, alleviate, change, or simply accept their situation. They can also vote. It is the only weapon that the working poor have to improve their condition. But with the amount of disseminated misinformation by lobbyists, media, and vested interest groups, the poor can't rally around any issue that is directly related to their wellbeing. If you wanted to lower the price of gas at the pumps, then vote out those representatives that can't do it and vote in those that can. The prices at the pump will eventually be lowered. Power to the people, is more than just an old hippie slogan

No where in our Constitution does it mention the things you cited in the "General Welfare" clause. You are just superimposing your agenda over the meaning to micro-manage the lives of others. My "General Welfare" would be better served by a two week long vacation somewhere, but I don't expect the government to pay for it. As to those less fortunate than you, how many of them have you taken in, or fed, or even reached out to? As to whining, I stopped whining at the age of 12 when I had to start raising myself and my younger sibling due to the death and breakdown of both parents. This was before 'welfare' was invented, so you got up every day and put one foot in front of the other, not expecting nor asking for a handout. You've got it too soft, so enjoy it and quit whining.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Tell that to the HIV infected in Africa who can't get medicine. Or for that matter, to diabetics right here in my own county who can't get insulin and are dying.

Why can't people in different countries in Africa, living with HIV, have access to treatment? Are the reasons logistical, policy, geographical, financial, political, supply, religious, or simply choice? Or, a combination? What are you implying, and why?

Clearly insulin is available to everyone with diabetes. The problem is the costs. At $120 - $400 per month without prescription drug insurance, many of the 29 Million victims will have lapses in their medications and become hospitalized. Just a brief history why. In the 1920's insulin was derived from the pancreas of cattle. Later it was mass produced from both pigs and cattle, and sold all over the world. This animal-derived version of insulin was later refined and purified to reduce any of its side effects. It became a very low-cost treatment for the management of diabetes. Once the new recombinant DNA technology started in the 70's(Humulin), the animal-derived insulin quickly disappeared in the US. But was still being used effectively, and cheaply in the rest of the world. This new DNA-derived insulin, although no better than its animal-derived form was marketed heavily to inflate its price. Drug companies only care about their profits, not their consequences.

Today, to address this corporate greed, Biosimilar insulin is being produced and approved, to help those unable to afford the high cost of insulin. These are substances that act in the same way as insulin, but is not identical to insulin. Although the cost savings here is around 40%, it will not be the 80% expected of most generic substitutes. But it is a start.

So, as a group you have the power to change things. You can just simply complain, or take steps to organize and change things.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why can't people in different countries in Africa, living with HIV, have access to treatment? Are the reasons logistical, policy, geographical, financial, political, supply, religious, or simply choice? Or, a combination? What are you implying, and why?

Clearly insulin is available to everyone with diabetes. The problem is the costs. At $120 - $400 per month without prescription drug insurance

One word: COST
People can't afford it.

In Africa, one of the things that drives up the price is the scarcity. People either go without, or those who do have money buy drugs that are often watered down and die anyhow.

Like I said, my friend with diabetes either has not health insurance or can't afford the co-payment (I can't remember which).

Unfortunately, many in the world naively are unaware of, or simply turn away from, the fact that there are those so hard up they barely can find food and shelter and live day to day. Even in the US.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

One word: COST
People can't afford it.

In Africa, one of the things that drives up the price is the scarcity. People either go without, or those who do have money buy drugs that are often watered down and die anyhow.

Like I said, my friend with diabetes either has not health insurance or can't afford the co-payment (I can't remember which).

Unfortunately, many in the world naively are unaware of, or simply turn away from, the fact that there are those so hard up they barely can find food and shelter and live day to day. Even in the US.

I agree that there are pockets in the world that 100% of HIV sufferers do not have access to effective treatment. But, WHO, DWB, AMREF, Global Viral, IMC, Mothers 2 Mothers, Mercy Ship, and many other non-profit, non-Government humanitarian organizations, are still trying to reach that 100% target. I'm sure you're not suggesting that if the results are not 100% effective, that we should no longer address the problems? Unless you can demonstrate the opposite, on average, the majority of HIV victims in Africa, do have access to HIV treatment, and can afford it. In some places cost IS due to scarcity and it is supply that is the problem, but these problems are the exceptions to the rule, not the rule.

Regarding your friend with diabetes. Pressure your representatives as a collective voice, to allow importing animal-derived insulin into the US. Look into private and governmental programs that can help subsidize out of pocket expenses for treatment https://diatribe.org/how-to-get-diabetes-drugs-free . https://www.novocare.com/psp/PAP.html Also look into the cheaper biosimilar alternatives to the generic insulin. Your friend must realize that the system is rigged against him, unless he/she is willing to jump through hurdles and not give up. There are solutions and rewards, for those who are willing to persevere. Please let me know what I can do at this end?

 

[Truly Enlightened]

No where in our Constitution does it mention the things you cited in the "General Welfare" clause. You are just superimposing your agenda over the meaning to micro-manage the lives of others. My "General Welfare" would be better served by a two week long vacation somewhere, but I don't expect the government to pay for it. As to those less fortunate than you, how many of them have you taken in, or fed, or even reached out to? As to whining, I stopped whining at the age of 12 when I had to start raising myself and my younger sibling due to the death and breakdown of both parents. This was before 'welfare' was invented, so you got up every day and put one foot in front of the other, not expecting nor asking for a handout. You've got it too soft, so enjoy it and quit whining.

I'm afraid that the General Welfare Clause was never interpreted by congress to mean the Individual's Welfare Clause. Therefore, you will just have to finance your own vacation. There are limitations on how the government can promote the general welfare, safety, morality, peace, and the health of its society. Also, I or the Government have no hidden agenda to micromanage anyone's lives. What percentage of your life do you feel is being micromanaged by the government or me?

Things were a lot different in our day. Children could raise themselves and their siblings with little assistance. This would be almost impossible, and illegal, to do today. At least your parents were out of the picture. I could only wish that my parents were out of the picture. But as a child, we were helpless and ignorant. I stopped whining once I was weaned off my mother's milk.

My contribution to the community is extensive. I provide two community dinners each year at my home. I run a tutorial center to help kids having problems with their studies(all grades). Although I am semi-retired, I still mentor 2 days a week at Uni., and counsel special kids through the PCYC. I give to 3 youth charities, and 2 general charities. I am an active political member in my community, and have petitioned for many improvements, that have mostly come to fruition. I am getting far to old(health-wise), to keep up with the pace. I have done my part to benefit the lives of myself and others in my time. It will now take younger and more dedicated minds to take over, and continue what we started. Unless you can give a part of yourself to enrich the lives of others, you can never experience the true meaning of the word love. And, will always be defined by the memories of your past.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Go Tulsi !

 

[BSM1]

I'm afraid that the General Welfare Clause was never interpreted by congress to mean the Individual's Welfare Clause. Therefore, you will just have to finance your own vacation. There are limitations on how the government can promote the general welfare, safety, morality, peace, and the health of its society. Also, I or the Government have no hidden agenda to micromanage anyone's lives. What percentage of your life do you feel is being micromanaged by the government or me?

Things were a lot different in our day. Children could raise themselves and their siblings with little assistance. This would be almost impossible, and illegal, to do today. At least your parents were out of the picture. I could only wish that my parents were out of the picture. But as a child, we were helpless and ignorant. I stopped whining once I was weaned off my mother's milk.

My contribution to the community is extensive. I provide two community dinners each year at my home. I run a tutorial center to help kids having problems with their studies(all grades). Although I am semi-retired, I still mentor 2 days a week at Uni., and counsel special kids through the PCYC. I give to 3 youth charities, and 2 general charities. I am an active political member in my community, and have petitioned for many improvements, that have mostly come to fruition. I am getting far to old(health-wise), to keep up with the pace. I have done my part to benefit the lives of myself and others in my time. It will now take younger and more dedicated minds to take over, and continue what we started. Unless you can give a part of yourself to enrich the lives of others, you can never experience the true meaning of the word love. And, will always be defined by the memories of your past.

Do you believe everyone should be forced to be as beneficent and noble as you?