Is healthcare a right? Anyone is welcome here.

[columbus]

However.... I can't help but wonder. Is it right for this recovering ex-smoker to expect society to take care of him if he developed cancer or other delightful ailments which are the results of their own long term actions?

Here's another question.
Why should I have to fund pregnancy care and well baby clinics?
I will not choose any behavior that might result in pregnancy.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Irrelevant. You are trying to attach responsibility on to complete strangers for not wanting to pay for other people's problems by government edict.

Why don't you move to America and enjoy the fruits of your sort of thinking? Better hope life doesn't happen to you and you fall on hard times. Don't be a hypocrite like Ayn Rand and get government help. If you get cancer or something else as serious, pay for it all yourself. Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Being Canadian, I'm a fan of Universal HealthCare and do see it as a basic human right.

However.... I can't help but wonder. Is it right for this recovering ex-smoker to expect society to take care of him if he developed cancer or other delightful ailments which are the results of their own long term actions? I mean this ONLY in cases where you can draw a cause and effect straight line (ok, a wiggly line will do.)

That wiggly line can easily get really wigglier. What about people who suffer from longterm injuries from playing sports? They chose the risk. What about people who didnt eat healthy and now have heart problems? People who work in hazard jobs? People who willingly get pregnant? People who choose to drive? Which is direct and which is indirect and how do we decide?

 

[Shad]

You are trying to attach responsibility to a person for having a genetic disorder or random condition.

Nope. I covered responsibly for paying for healthcare not responsibility for any and all conditions.

I suppose if a person with epilepsy or congenital heart disease is a shop worker on minimum wage, they just don't deserve healthcare, because they just shouldn't have been born with a problem in the first place.

Never said that. Strawman much?

 

[Shad]

Why don't you move to America and enjoy the fruits of your sort of thinking?

Actually I have been applying for a work visa as a first step.

Better hope life doesn't happen to you and you fall on hard times. Don't be a hypocrite like Ayn Rand and get government help.

No need as I will be paying into existing healthcare services ergo paying my way.

If you get cancer or something else as serious, pay for it all yourself. Put your money where your mouth is.

Already had cancer, surgery was completely in Seattle on my own dime due to waiting lists. Oh and the Canadian government never covered my costs as I must use it's rationing system by law or use my own money.

 

[Rival]

Nope. I covered responsibly for paying for healthcare not responsibility for any and all conditions.

Do you know what healthcare is? It's when you're not healthy, and then someone cares for you. It isn't conditional.

Never said that. Strawman much?

You implied that. You said people were responsible for it:

Nope as I have no control over what you do thus have zero responsibility nor influence over and for your choices. I am not your parent.

This implies that being ill is somehow a choice and thus entirely your responsibility.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually I have been applying for a work visa as a first step.



No need as I will be paying into existing healthcare services ergo paying my way.



Already had cancer, surgery was completely in Seattle on my own dime due to waiting lists. Oh and the Canadian government never covered my costs as I must use it's rationing system by law or use my own money.

How privileged you are. Like I said, better hope life doesn't happen to you like it has to so many millions in America. It's easy to spout that social Darwinist crap from a position of comfort.

 

[Salvador]

The uninsured poor just clog up the ER and don't pay the bill. That's more acceptable to you?

I've always supported medicaid for those living below the poverty level, otherwise the uninsured living above poverty should be held accountable for their choice not to be covered with health insurance. The unemployment rate is now 3.7 percent, most employers do offer health insurance; anybody who wants access to health insurance nowadays, can get it. If people are too lazy to apply for medicaid or if they are too lazy to get a job with health insurance, then they should be held accountable to pay any of their debts to the hospital; if they persist on refusing to pay their hospital bills, then their assets or future assets should be seized and sold off towards paying their debts to the hospital.

 

[Shad]

Do you know what healthcare is? It's when you're not healthy, and then someone cares for you. It isn't conditional.

Healthcare does not merely cover the unhealthy but those that want to maintain good health as well.

You implied that. You said people were responsible for it

No I said their problems. If someone is the cause of their own problems, like smokers, I am not responsible nor do I feel I should be paying for the result of their choice via taxes. Conditions not caused by action I am far more willing to compromise in forming a limited system. Children born with major medical conditions for example.

This implies that being ill is somehow a choice and thus entirely your responsibility.

No. It was about some illness is the direct cause of one's actions.

 

[Shad]

How privileged you are.

Hilarious moral grandstanding. You have no idea what my life was like so instead of asking you just toss out typical leftist virtue signaling. Oh please tell me random internet person what in my life was a privilege. I will wait.

Like I said, better hope life doesn't happen to you like it has to so many millions in America. It's easy to spout that social Darwinist crap from a position of comfort.

Wrong. A position of being prepared.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hilarious moral grandstanding. You have no idea what my life was like so instead of asking you just toss out typical leftist virtue signaling. Oh please tell me random internet person what in my life was a privilege. I will wait.



Wrong. A position of being prepared.

Being able to pay for your own healthcare is a privilege. That you don't even realize that shows how privileged and removed from the reality of the situation that you are. Nothing to do with "leftist virtue signaling". It's called life experience. I'm not some hipster ********* college student.

 

[Salvador]

Being able to pay for your own healthcare is a privilege. That you don't even realize that shows how privileged and removed from the reality of the situation that you are. Nothing to do with "leftist virtue signaling". It's called life experience. I'm not some hipster ********* college student.

Yes, we are of the privileged class who don't expect the commoner folk to pay for our medical bills. Right?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, we are of the privileged class who don't expect the commoner folk to pay for our medical bills. Right?

Wrong. That's not what I said.

 

[Salvador]

Wrong. That's not what I said.

Sorry, I didn''t mean to make my own words appear as though they were coming from you. But you do agree privileged class persons like you and I ought not expect the commoner folk to pay for our medical care? Right?

 

[Shad]

Being able to pay for your own healthcare is a privilege.

No it isn't. A privilege is provided without consideration of merit nor due.

That you don't even realize that shows how privileged and removed from the reality of the situation that you are.

More moral grandstanding more repeating the previous assertion while failing to provide any details used as evidence to support said assertion. /Yawn

Nothing to do with "leftist virtue signaling". It's called life experience. I'm not some hipster ********* college student.

That is all it was as you never provided any actually argument nor evidence supporting your point. /Yawn.

You do not need to be from collage to virtue signal. It only requires moral grandstanding which you did. /Yawn

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No it isn't. A privilege is provided without consideration of merit nor due.



More moral grandstanding more repeating the previous assertion while failing to provide any details used as evidence to support said assertion. /Yawn




That is all it was as you never provided any actually argument nor evidence supporting you point. /Yawn.

You do not need to be from collage to virtue signal. It only requires moral grandstanding which you did. /Yawn

/Yawn
/Ignore

 

[Shad]

/Yawn
/Ignore

Whine more

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sorry, I didn''t mean to make my own words appear as though they were coming from you. But you do agree privileged class persons like you and I ought not expect the commoner folk to pay for our medical care? Right?

I'm on Medicaid. I'm poor.

 

[Rival]

No I said their problems. If someone is the cause of their own problems, like smokers, I am not responsible nor do I feel I should be paying for the result of their choice via taxes. Conditions not caused by action I am far more willing to compromise in forming a limited system. Children born with major medical conditions for example.

No. It was about some illness is the direct cause of one's actions.

This is it. Earth humans have this emotion called 'compassion' and 'forgiveness'. If a person ate thousands of calories a day and made him or herself obese, realised he or she now has a problem and asks for help, the reason other people help them is because they understand that the obese person is experiencing a problem with food, and may as a result have diabetes or a heart condition, bone or joint problems. Instead of saying 'It's your fault, you did this', a person says, 'You have a problem. We will help you learn to deal with your maladaptive behaviour, whatever is causing your underlying need to eat, and give you treatments you need.' From there, the person with the problem, in this case obesity, has been given another chance at life; they may lose the weight, develop better habits and go on to become a gym attendant, professional martial artist, or anything else they couldn't do before. Denying them insulin, a gastric bypass, or other help, you condemn them to more problems and eventual death, because they are going to think no-one cares about them anyway, so what's the point? Might as well just eat more and deal with problems the same way they always have.

People make mistakes; they are not logical creatures, nor will they ever be. They require help from other humans to help them better themselves. Other people don't condemn them as lost causes on the back of mistakes. If everyone did that, Earth would be a terrible society indeed.

And with that, I'll leave you to your views.

 

[YmirGF]

That wiggly line can easily get really wigglier. What about people who suffer from longterm injuries from playing sports? They chose the risk. What about people who didnt eat healthy and now have heart problems? People who work in hazard jobs? People who willingly get pregnant? People who choose to drive? Which is direct and which is indirect and how do we decide?

Some things, like my 30 years of smoking, do have direct links to given illnesses though. Likewise, smoking cigarettes, in general is not seen as a positive health choice. I can think of obvious exceptions for all of your examples but am having trouble justifying in cases like my own.

I suppose we could go with @Saint Frankenstein remark about addiction mitigating fault and I appreciate that aspect but still feel that the individual should bear some responsibility. Perhaps triage guidelines could sand off the rough edges on this problem?