Is Hell just?

[Khale]

"The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice."—DEUTERONOMY 32:4.

"Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!" ..Job 34;10 hellfire is a false made up lie

Does this mean that God is a being of pure gumdrop goodness? Or Couldn't it also mean that no matter what God does it can not be considered just or unjust as he is the one that defies justice.

A judge may find it just to put a man to death for stealing an apple. I can assure you that the convicted has different beliefs.

 

[michel]

If Hellfire is a "false, made up lie," then prove it biblically; and I don't mean pulling out all the verses that include God and love, please spare your concordance theology. Prove that "hell" does not exist or that it is a doctrine made by men.

Brandon

Why don't you prove it exists, Brandon ? (and I don't mean through scripture).. for a start, where is hell?

 

[Solon]

We live in a fallen world. "Impartial fairness" is not part of this world, but part of the judgement we receive. Compared to the eternal glory that awaits us, disasters such as Katrina and the Tsunami are insignificant in the big picture.

What is Eternal glory ?

S

 

[Of a Happy Ending]

Why don't you prove it exists, Brandon ? (and I don't mean through scripture).. for a start, where is hell?

I can't prove that it exists without using Scripture. Scripture is the sole authority on which to base all doctrinal ideas. If a JW says there is no hell, then they must do it using the Bible as the basis.

However, if its a philosophical point you want, then you have to ask the right question.

Brandon

 

[Of a Happy Ending]

Why don't you prove it exists, Brandon ? (and I don't mean through scripture).. for a start, where is hell?

Physically, hell has no location. To place a physical location on a spiritual reality is fallacy. Hell, my friend, is the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation. It is the ultimate destination of all those whose names are not in the book of life.

If you are referring to Jesus' illustration of gehenna, then gehenna was a place of refuse near Jerusalem. He used this figure metaphorically in referencing the final destruction of Satan and his angels.

See, I can't define Hell without Scripture.

Brandon

 

[Abram]

Why don't you prove it exists, Brandon ? (and I don't mean through scripture).. for a start, where is hell?

What if hell is here and now. Can you imagine being stuck in this world for eternity after knowing there is a God. All your disires would consume you, Knowing that the good job, or the nice car, or the hot girlfriend/boyfriend will never bring you true happiness.
So God never sends us there, we're here. He just offered a way out.

 

[michel]

What if hell is here and now. Can you imagine being stuck in this world for eternity after knowing there is a God. All your disires would consume you, Knowing that the good job, or the nice car, or the hot girlfriend/boyfriend will never bring you true happiness.
So God never sends us there, we're here. He just offered a way out.

I have often thought of Earth as being hell, but maybe that is just the way I see my own life on Earth...................

 

[Abram]

I have often thought of Earth as being hell, but maybe that is just the way I see my own life on Earth...................

Me as well... When he kicked Adam (us) out of heaven he had to go somewhere? If it's not eden then where?

Also in this view it makes God "just and fair"

 

[Super Universe]

Here is the hell theory as I understand it: God makes universe for sentient beings. These sentient beings are then tested by God's enemy, the devil, to see if they will obey God's rules. If they do not obey then God sentences them to endless torture.

It's typical primitive Old Testament theory. It attributes weak human traits to God. It talks about a God full of anger, who wants revenge and is jealous of the beings He created. Something impossible. Jesus said "forgive your enemy". This and His other teachings all simply rewrote the book.

Do you test your children? If they fail, could you sentence them to eternal torture?

Any parent knows that this would be impossible. How is God any less caring of us?

Now that does not mean that there is no justice in the universe, the angels do punish but not at our level, it's only done at their level because they know better. We are primitive intelligence and our existence is temporary unless we earn the right to the next step on the long journey. If we have not chosen to be moral then our soul never fuses with our human personality and after death the soul returns to the source while our personality ceases to exist.

Would you tell primitive humans that there is no punishment from God? There would be utter chaos. Even today, if we did not have police our world would be one continous riot. I don't blame the revealers of the Old Testament theory but today we have a choice.

A God jealous of humans or a God who loves and forgives us?

 

[Of a Happy Ending]

A God jealous of humans or a God who loves and forgives us?

[/size]

First, you presented a fallacy there at the end. "A God jealous of humans or a God who loves and forgives us" is a false dichotomy. There is always at least a third option. In this case, there most certainly is.

Here is the hell theory as I understand it: God makes universe for sentient beings. These sentient beings are then tested by God's enemy, the devil, to see if they will obey God's rules. If they do not obey then God sentences them to endless torture.

The primary problem with this understanding is that it is not true. The devil does not test sentient beings to see if they obey God's rules. Rather, the devil simply wants to ensure that no one renigs on their rejection of God. As we are born naturally rejecting God, the devil simply wants to ensure that that position remains the same and that no one turns to the God that we all, at the beginning of our lives, hate.

It's typical primitive Old Testament theory. It attributes weak human traits to God. It talks about a God full of anger, who wants revenge and is jealous of the beings He created. Something impossible. Jesus said "forgive your enemy". This and His other teachings all simply rewrote the book.

First of all, the OT is the basis of all NT theology, to call it "primitive" in the sense that it has been replaced with something new is also a misconception. Jesus Himself said, "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." Jesus did not "rewrite" the book, rather, He enhanced it to make more evident its original meaning. That meaning points to the fact that no one can be good enough to earn God's grace. That grace is bestowed upon people as they call upon God and is totally dependent on God, not man's doing. All men must do is turn to the God that they have rejected.

Do you test your children? If they fail, could you sentence them to eternal torture?

My mom always told me that if I committed a murder, she would be the first person to turn me in, because she loves me. When we reject God, He gives us exactly what we want. He leaves us alone. He is not necessarily punishing us, He is giving us over to our own desires. That desire is for ourselves rather than for Him.

Any parent knows that this would be impossible. How is God any less caring of us?

God cares for us much more than our parents do. Jesus asked, "If you know how to give good gifts how much more does your Father in Heaven?" But, in the parable of the Prodigal Son, the father did not chase his son, rather he waited for his son to return to him. God does the same with humanity. If we die after having turned from Him, then we die without Him. In that, He is perfectly just in allowing us to spend the rest of eternity separated from Him.

Now that does not mean that there is no justice in the universe, the angels do punish but not at our level, it's only done at their level because they know better. We are primitive intelligence and our existence is temporary unless we earn the right to the next step on the long journey. If we have not chosen to be moral then our soul never fuses with our human personality and after death the soul returns to the source while our personality ceases to exist.

Would you tell primitive humans that there is no punishment from God? There would be utter chaos. Even today, if we did not have police our world would be one continous riot. I don't blame the revealers of the Old Testament theory but today we have a choice.

I'm not sure I see your connection here, but claiming that we as human beings cannot be held responsible for our actions against God because we are lower than the angels and they "know better" is kind of a cop out. Humans know very well what morality is. In fact, God has made it easy for man to be made perfect. And I'm really not sure how the whole "soul and personality" thing is relevant. As far as that goes, I think we would have to be on the same page to even discuss the matter. As it goes, that is not the witness of the Bible and I cannot hold that argument as authoritative at all.

Brandon

 

[Super Universe]

Kind sir, I disagree completely. You are obviously well educated in the rigid structure that is modern theological schooling but that impresses me not because for all of your supposed Godly training you are absolutely blind to the pure beauty of God's great creation. What can any author write that explains God more than a field of wildflowers? Or children playing? Or kittens being born? Or a forrest of Sequoia trees? Giant living organisms, 275' tall, some were a hundred years old when Jesus was born. What does your Old Testament say about those things? Nevermind, because whatever it is it doesn't even scatch the surface.

There is a universe out there and it is bigger than one book.

I proposed a choice to you, a God of love or a God of jealousy, it was not fallacy nor false, nor was a third option nesessary because it was not a 'yes' or 'no' or 'maybe' question. You could choose to not answer it, which you didn't.

Ask your mom if she would turn you in for murder if she knew the sentence would absolutely be your eternal burning in hellfire?

As for my explanation about angels, it is certainly not a cop out. I'm sorry you don't understand it. Humans are certainly held responsible for our actions but by other humans. Angels don't come here to kill us, even the worst of us. When have you seen or known this to happen?

You're not sure about the whole soul and personality thing? Hmm, you mean it's not in the Old Testament? Well I wonder how I knew it then? And there's more. So much more that I could go on for hours. Exactly how do you think the writers of the Old Testament, or any other revealed book, know what to write? Did you think the angels actually came over for a visit? Sat down on the sofa and drank tea and talked? You know why it's never been revealed to you, because you never cared to ask. You already 'think' you know everything. I could explain more to you about this but I don't think it's worth the effort.

You're right. We would have to be on the same page but you can't seem to close that old outdated book. We've come a long way since then.

Man made perfect? Never. God did not make humans perfect. Perfection is the goal.

To help you understand my view I recommend this, hold an infant in your arms for awhile.

 

[YmirGF]

As much as I am amused by Super Universe's version of reality, I cannot help but tip my hat to him that he is at least highly original. A bit loopy for my taste but highly creative, nonetheless. I see the more tradition viewpoints offered, and from the outside looking in, the traditional idea does not seem to be much better thought out.

Of_happy_ending, aka Brandon, asked me why I would post on a Religious Forum, feeling the way I do. A pretty astute question, and one I ask myself almost every day. First off, I feel my points are as valid as the next person's. Second, I like interacting with people and discussing interesting ideas. Third, I just might learn something. Fourth, others just might learn something.

They cynic in me leaps up at the topic and says "Is Hell just... what? What?"

Brandon, you would think that a normal person would read all these accounts of hell and begin to perhaps wonder. Perhaps have some doubts. You know what I am saying, I am sure. Like you folks seem to know so much about God, Heaven and Hell. You all sound like you actually know what you are talking about. The seriousness of the discussion is fascinating, as every pounds home their cherished points. It is the seriousness that tickles my funny bone.

You would be wise to listen to me, but I know that you won't, because you will continue blissfully on with your worldview. After all, you have the rule book, there, right in front of you. How can you be wrong?

The topic is IS HELL JUST? You tell me? I have a question, but need to lay a bit of groundwork first.

Christian theology tells us we live but once. Christian theology tells us that our resplendant God will commit the worst of the worst human beings to an eternal damnation in a firey Hell. Meanwhile, even the worst mortals will only live up to 125 years or so before death.

My question is: Don't you think that is a bit overkill. Ok, sure, you screw up for the entire one hundred and twenty five years. Do you still deserve to roast forever, for trillions upon trillions of years for the mistakes made in the blink of a 125 year span?

"Houston. I think we have a problem."

The curiosity here is that I can understand the whole thing and it make sense if a MAN wrote it. I have a hard time buying into this if a GOD wrote it.

Anyways... don't mind me. Please, carry on with the brilliant discussion.

Merry Christmas
Paul

 

[Of a Happy Ending]

Kind sir, I disagree completely. You are obviously well educated in the rigid structure that is modern theological schooling but that impresses me not because for all of your supposed Godly training you are absolutely blind to the pure beauty of God's great creation. What can any author write that explains God more than a field of wildflowers? Or children playing? Or kittens being born? Or a forrest of Sequoia trees? Giant living organisms, 275' tall, some were a hundred years old when Jesus was born. What does your Old Testament say about those things? Nevermind, because whatever it is it doesn't even scatch the surface.

There is a universe out there and it is bigger than one book.

I proposed a choice to you, a God of love or a God of jealousy, it was not fallacy nor false, nor was a third option nesessary because it was not a 'yes' or 'no' or 'maybe' question. You could choose to not answer it, which you didn't.

Ask your mom if she would turn you in for murder if she knew the sentence would absolutely be your eternal burning in hellfire?

As for my explanation about angels, it is certainly not a cop out. I'm sorry you don't understand it. Humans are certainly held responsible for our actions but by other humans. Angels don't come here to kill us, even the worst of us. When have you seen or known this to happen?

You're not sure about the whole soul and personality thing? Hmm, you mean it's not in the Old Testament? Well I wonder how I knew it then? And there's more. So much more that I could go on for hours. Exactly how do you think the writers of the Old Testament, or any other revealed book, know what to write? Did you think the angels actually came over for a visit? Sat down on the sofa and drank tea and talked? You know why it's never been revealed to you, because you never cared to ask. You already 'think' you know everything. I could explain more to you about this but I don't think it's worth the effort.

You're right. We would have to be on the same page but you can't seem to close that old outdated book. We've come a long way since then.

Man made perfect? Never. God did not make humans perfect. Perfection is the goal.

To help you understand my view I recommend this, hold an infant in your arms for awhile.

Dude, I'm going to ignore the insinuations you made regarding my personal motivations, convictions, and pride. I know I'm far from perfect and far from all-knowing. As far as the Bible being an outdated book, that's for you and God to figure out. As far as I know, God's Word transcends time and we cannot move past it. To do so puts oneself in a position of pride that discounts God. I'm not prepared to be nearly that arrogant.

Secondly, the soul and personality fusing thing is certainly not in the OT. If you see it, point it out.

And the Bible does say much for the beauty of Creation and for the relationships built between people and their beauty.

As for the last statement, I have held many infants in my arms. I have known the unconditional love of looking into the eyes of a baby and knowing that I would do absolutely anything for that child, including offer my life. Your insinuation insults me more than you know. But from there I feel only pity. Pity that you think God's Word is not enough and that is has been surpassed. God bless and have mercy on you.

Brandon

 

[Of a Happy Ending]

As much as I am amused by Super Universe's version of reality, I cannot help but tip my hat to him that he is at least highly original. A bit loopy for my taste but highly creative, nonetheless. I see the more tradition viewpoints offered, and from the outside looking in, the traditional idea does not seem to be much better thought out.

Of_happy_ending, aka Brandon, asked me why I would post on a Religious Forum, feeling the way I do. A pretty astute question, and one I ask myself almost every day. First off, I feel my points are as valid as the next person's. Second, I like interacting with people and discussing interesting ideas. Third, I just might learn something. Fourth, others just might learn something.

They cynic in me leaps up at the topic and says "Is Hell just... what? What?"

Brandon, you would think that a normal person would read all these accounts of hell and begin to perhaps wonder. Perhaps have some doubts. You know what I am saying, I am sure. Like you folks seem to know so much about God, Heaven and Hell. You all sound like you actually know what you are talking about. The seriousness of the discussion is fascinating, as every pounds home their cherished points. It is the seriousness that tickles my funny bone.

You would be wise to listen to me, but I know that you won't, because you will continue blissfully on with your worldview. After all, you have the rule book, there, right in front of you. How can you be wrong?

The topic is IS HELL JUST? You tell me? I have a question, but need to lay a bit of groundwork first.

Christian theology tells us we live but once. Christian theology tells us that our resplendant God will commit the worst of the worst human beings to an eternal damnation in a firey Hell. Meanwhile, even the worst mortals will only live up to 125 years or so before death.

My question is: Don't you think that is a bit overkill. Ok, sure, you screw up for the entire one hundred and twenty five years. Do you still deserve to roast forever, for trillions upon trillions of years for the mistakes made in the blink of a 125 year span?

"Houston. I think we have a problem."

The curiosity here is that I can understand the whole thing and it make sense if a MAN wrote it. I have a hard time buying into this if a GOD wrote it.

Anyways... don't mind me. Please, carry on with the brilliant discussion.

Merry Christmas
Paul

Paul,

I thank you and honestly sympathize with your position. Thank you for your efforts to learn and impart learning. My question of your posting in this particular forum is that it is designated particularly "biblical debates." I assumed that this premise was for those who accept the Bible as authoritative and wish to debate from that point on. Obviously, there are those here who do not accept the authority of the Bible, and I apologize for not being sympathetic to that fact.

As for your question of "overkill." The sin of rejecting God is an eternal sin, requiring an eternal response. Furthermore, it is not an issue of God malevolently tossing those He dislikes into Hell. Rather, it is human pride and hardness that prevents himself from entering the gates of the new Jerusalem. The opportunity to follow Christ is open to all men, unfortunately, many men will never do that. That hurts more than you know, but its the truth. Trust me, I would rather this idea of Hell be false. I would rather there be no Hell, but that is the consequence of sin. Its a hard reality.

I present what I present based only on the authority of the Bible and its witness. That is where I'm coming from. I'm not hanging out on the other forums because I'm not really into debating the validity of the Bible, primarily because that is not my area of expertise nor specialization. I know why I believe what I believe and why I believe the Bible to be authoritative, but I'm not prepared to voice those in an arena where much of the conversation is devoted to questioning those principles. My area specializes in interpreting the Bible and knowing what God has said to mankind. I'm much more interested in telling people the truth about what the Bible says as opposed to defending the Bible itself.

Brandon

 

[jonny]

Man, you and your Church are inhabiting some la la detached world, you really believe that stuff, I'm amazed, I'm truly amazed. What is Eternal glory by the way ?

S

Chill out Solon. You don't believe in the Bible so no one would expect you to agree with our teachings. I'm amazed that you continue to post things like this here without getting yourself banned. I find it sad that you cannot state your position on anything without personally attacking the person you are debating.

Perhaps you should review the Forum Rules. Rule #4 in particular:

While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. We will allow faith to be debated and discussed by a member only when there is no hostile, rude, or insulting opinion of another's faith. These restrictions to an open debate or discussion also apply to material linked and/or quoted from another site. Our decision is final in these matters.

Eternal glory is a term used when speaking about the state we will be in when we are resurrected.

 

[Super Universe]

Of a Happy Ending: You seem humble so I will try to be..takes a big breath... I know that I am an instigative messenger without tact. Sometimes I hit hard, deep, and I don't realize how much until later.

The word of God is constantly being revealed to us but you have to ask for it. You must actively look for it everywhere: the fields blowing in the wind, the waves pounding the beach, the housekeepers giggle... You have to notice these things. It's your job because if you make it up the ladder and finally get to meet God He is going to want to know these things. That's your purpose. God wants you to tell him about what is out there, in the universe He created. He doesn't want to just hear "Oh yeah, it's great. We have cars and airplanes and television..." God wants to know what it feels like for a proud father to hold his new born child.

Because that my friend is God's purpose.

 

[Of a Happy Ending]

Of a Happy Ending: You seem humble so I will try to be..takes a big breath... I know that I am an instigative messenger without tact. Sometimes I hit hard, deep, and I don't realize how much until later.

The word of God is constantly being revealed to us but you have to ask for it. You must actively look for it everywhere: the fields blowing in the wind, the waves pounding the beach, the housekeepers giggle... You have to notice these things. It's your job because if you make it up the ladder and finally get to meet God He is going to want to know these things. That's your purpose. God wants you to tell him about what is out there, in the universe He created. He doesn't want to just hear "Oh yeah, it's great. We have cars and airplanes and television..." God wants to know what it feels like for a proud father to hold his new born child.

Because that my friend is God's purpose.

I think we're a little misaligned where God's purpose is concerned. God's purpose is more than for us to tell Him what life is like here. God knows more than we ever will the beauty of His creation. He knows more than any of us what it is to hold a child in His hands. And he knows better than any of us ever will the pain of loss. God's purpose is to draw men unto Him for His own glory.

I know that we are to see God in all that there is. And not a day goes by that I do not appreciate and love His creation. I recently took a hike up Mt. Sandia in Albuquerque, NM. The peak is at 10,678ft. It is amazing at the top. We reached the peak right at sunset and saw the most amazing sunset and cityscape I have ever seen. In that I found more connection with God than I ever have. But the difference is that that city scape, that amazing collision of human ingenuity and God's artistry reminded me of what God has told us. It led me to His word, to a deeper love for Him and His word. I led me to desire to know what He has told us more. Yeah, we can appreciate nature, and love His creation, but it will not yield to us a deep knowledge of God. It will not surplant study of God's Word and seeking into Him. Yes, we must seek after God, we must ask for revelation, we must dutifully search after God, but all of that is tempered by the fact that He has revealed Himself fully in Jesus Christ and that revelation is recorded for us. It is not merely an intellectual pursuit, it is a spiritual search through God's Word.

Brandon

 

[Super Universe]

Has the President of your country ever come by your house? Is it even possible for them to visit and spend time with each and every person? Certainly the President's representatives could visit you though, and in fact, it's kind of their job to do just that. But you have to ask, and I think you are trying to in the only way you know how.

Have you ever seen the ultra deep space picture imaged by the Hubble Space Telescope? The huge forty foot long Hubble was pointed at an area of black space and it studied it for three months. Do you know what they found? It's full of stars...and galaxies, and nebula's. So many that is was impossible to count them all and this was just a small piece of the sky. Hold up a grain of sand between your fingers, the part of the sky the Hubble resolved is like that.

There is so much out there. Trillions of planets with life.

I guarantee that hike up the mountain, that incredible view, provides more understanding of God than the whole of the Old Testament. You may not be able to see it now but give it time.

Jesus teachings in the New Testament? Well those are off the chart as far as providing for my understanding of God. They have affected me more than everything else combined.

Try these two ideas:

1) Make a conscious decision to remember your dreams. Our conscience is here to help us but during the day we mostly ignore it. At night it takes over, like a strange parable from the Book of Revelations. The next morning when you awake, try your best to remember. Leave a pen and paper by the alarm clock to remind you. If you can't remember, then don't worry, get up and go take a shower. Then, when you don't even expect it, the pieces of your dream will come back to you. It takes time and practise.

2) Try to interpret your actions, if you get angry with someone at work is it because you are really angry at them or because of something else that you did earlier in the day? And if you are really angry with them what specific things did they do to make you dislike them?

 

[Of a Happy Ending]

Has the President of your country ever come by your house? Is it even possible for them to visit and spend time with each and every person? Certainly the President's representatives could visit you though, and in fact, it's kind of their job to do just that. But you have to ask, and I think you are trying to in the only way you know how.

Have you ever seen the ultra deep space picture imaged by the Hubble Space Telescope? The huge forty foot long Hubble was pointed at an area of black space and it studied it for three months. Do you know what they found? It's full of stars...and galaxies, and nebula's. So many that is was impossible to count them all and this was just a small piece of the sky. Hold up a grain of sand between your fingers, the part of the sky the Hubble resolved is like that.

There is so much out there. Trillions of planets with life.

I guarantee that hike up the mountain, that incredible view, provides more understanding of God than the whole of the Old Testament. You may not be able to see it now but give it time.

Jesus teachings in the New Testament? Well those are off the chart as far as providing for my understanding of God. They have affected me more than everything else combined.

Try these two ideas:

1) Make a conscious decision to remember your dreams. Our conscience is here to help us but during the day we mostly ignore it. At night it takes over, like a strange parable from the Book of Revelations. The next morning when you awake, try your best to remember. Leave a pen and paper by the alarm clock to remind you. If you can't remember, then don't worry, get up and go take a shower. Then, when you don't even expect it, the pieces of your dream will come back to you. It takes time and practise.

2) Try to interpret your actions, if you get angry with someone at work is it because you are really angry at them or because of something else that you did earlier in the day? And if you are really angry with them what specific things did they do to make you dislike them?

Again, there's a bit of misinformation. First, there is no way that a look from the top of a mountain gives more understanding than the whole of the OT. Remember, the NT cannot be understood without the OT, and when we try to interpret it forgetting the OT we will inevitably get it wrong.

Secondly, of course the president cannot come to my place, but God can. Unlike the president God is omnipresent and limitless. He can speak with me at the same time as speaking to anyone else.

Yes, there are trillions of planets out there, probably most without life, but even if they did all have life, God would be the same God. The God of the Bible is the God of the universe, yes, but He did not give us revelation concerning all of the other planets in the universe. We must assume that if there are other planets with life out there that He has dealt fairly with them as well given what we know of Him through His Word.

As for your two points:

1. Dreams do not come from the conscience. If you've studied the brain, you'll know that the part the fires when we are trying to make a right/wrong decision and the part that fires when we're dreaming are completely different. And our conscience does not go ignored most of the day. In fact, without it we would be in deep trouble because no one would discern right from wrong. Did you keep from killing someone today? Did you withstand the urge to steal something? Congratulations, you followed your conscience. Besides that, there is no way that our dreams are comparable to the book of Revelation. Revelation was a direct vision from Jesus Christ to John, not a dream.

2. I'm really not sure what this has to do with our conversation. This is always a healthy way to interpret one's actions at any moment. I try to do it often, but I don't see what this has to do with our understanding of God.

Brandon

 

[Of a Happy Ending]

and I think you are trying to in the only way you know how.

Again, be careful about assuming what one's position and level are. I don't think either of us knows the other well enough to say "the only way you know how," that's an assumption that points at a person as having a juvenile disposition at least on some level.

Brandon