Is Initiation Necessary for Gaudiya Vaishnavas?

[Prayag Das]

In my opinion, no.

For those unacquainted with Gaudiya Vaishnavism, this term is used to define the followers of the spiritual path propagated by Lord Caitanya (1486-1534). He was accepted as an avatar that appeared to teach how to love God purely during the present age of Kali yuga. His followers believe that He exemplifies the love of Radha for Krishna and He widely spread the chanting of the Hare Krishna mahamantra. He is accepted as Krishna Himself.

Caitanya did not invent the mahamantra as it was first mentioned in the Kali Santarana Upanisad as the best means of counteracting the effects of the present, degraded age of Kali yuga.

The most visible organization that propounds Gaudiya Vaishnavism is ISKCON, founded by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami in 1967. After he entered samadhi (left his body) much controversy on the initiation process has haunted ISKCON as there are many contradictory statements by the sampradaya (disciplic succession) acaryas (teachers by example) and assorted scriptures.

Many followers of Gaudiya Vaishnavism believe that it is not possible to spiritually advance unless they are initiated into the mahamantra (Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare, Hare; Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama, Rama, Hare, Hare) by a bona-fide guru. They cite various scriptures to bolster this belief, such as the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) which quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:

adiksitasya vamoru
krtam sarvam nirarthakam
pasu-yonim avapnoti
diksa-virahito janah

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

They also quote the Upadesamrta of Srila Rupa Goswami who was one of the 6 goswamis of Vrndavana, the principle followers of Lord Caitanya. He was personally trained by Lord Caitanya. Rupa Goswami stresses the importance of initiation (diksa). This book is considered a handbook for devotees and a summary study called “The Nectar of Devotion” can be downloaded free at Krishna.org.

In this sampradaya, the guru is not just accepted as a teacher. One dedicates his entire life to the order of the spiritual master. One is often asked to donate 50% of one’s income to fund the spiritual master’s activities. One worships the guru with the same respect one offers to God. It is not a casual relationship.

Many scriptures recommend taking shelter of a qualified guru. This is interpreted in many ways. Taking shelter means to some diska, and to other surrendering to the guru’s teachings. The physical presence of the guru is not considered very important; the teachings of the guru are much more significant.

In opposition to the scriptures mention above, we have a scripture called Caitanya Caritamrta (CC) written by Krishnadas Kaviraja (born 1496). He was a disciple of Raghunatha Dasa, another one of the 6 goswamis. You can also download this series of books for free at Krishna.org. It is considered the post-graduate course of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

In CC Madhya Lila 15.108 Lord Caitanya states; “One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.”

Clearly, the founder of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and Krishna Himself does not teach that initiation is necessary for a mantra to be effective. He is teaching that the mantra is powerful enough to deliver anyone from material existence.

No doubt that accepting a pure devotee as spiritual master will accelerate our spiritual advancement, but it is difficult to find and recognize such a self-realized soul. If you have the good fortune to come into contact with one, it would be less intelligent not to surrender. It would also be less intelligent to accept an unqualified devotee as a spiritual master just because we are told that it is essential.

I would suggest chanting the names of God as offenselessly as possible and if a guru is needed, Krishna will make arrangements.

 

[StarryNightshade]

Well, to be fair, one could argue that initiation isn't needed for any school of Hinduism.

Many follow certain philosophies, schools, or acharyas without ever taking initiation. All initiation really entails is that one is expected to follow new guidelines and rules. Including, but not limited to, diet, rituals, Gayatri (or any other) mantra, and direct guidance under a guru. Also, one who is initiated will learn more things than one who is not initiated (hence the direct guidance under a guru), but that still doesn't stop people from following schools of thought without ever taking the sacred thread. Heck, when I first started practicing Hinduism, I was Advaita Vedantin, but never met with a teacher or a math related to any specific lineage. But still identified as Advaitan all the same.

More related to your OP, most Gaudiyas I personally know are not initiates. They chant the mahamantra and associate with various Gaudiya organizations, but they are not necessarily under the obligation of the four regulative principles; as they have not been given Gayatri mantra or Dishka. Still, they are Gaudiya.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not a Gaudiya, but ... what is initiation? I don't mean that I have never heard of it, but just that perhaps its one of those words that has very different meanings to different people.

 

[Poeticus]

Many followers of Gaudiya Vaishnavism believe that it is not possible to spiritually advance unless they are initiated into the mahamantra (Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare, Hare; Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama, Rama, Hare, Hare) by a bona-fide guru.

I was always under the impression that initiation rites have traditionally been held in regards to joining a sampradaya/Indic school of thought, not necessarily for someone looking to recite a mantra.

 

[Prayag Das]

Well, to be fair, one could argue that initiation isn't needed for any school of Hinduism.

Many follow certain philosophies, schools, or acharyas without ever taking initiation. All initiation really entails is that one is expected to follow new guidelines and rules. Including, but not limited to, diet, rituals, Gayatri (or any other) mantra, and direct guidance under a guru. Also, one who is initiated will learn more things than one who is not initiated (hence the direct guidance under a guru), but that still doesn't stop people from following schools of thought without ever taking the sacred thread. Heck, when I first started practicing Hinduism, I was Advaita Vedantin, but never met with a teacher or a math related to any specific lineage. But still identified as Advaitan all the same.

Well, I can't argue that initiation isn't needed for any school of Hinduism, since I am not conversant with each sects various scriptures. I just have some familiarity with Gaudiya texts since I have been studying them almost all of my life. I am not an expert by any means. There are thousands and thousands of pages of complex philosophical thought. Reading about 3 hours per day, it takes about 2 years to read the Srimad Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrta once through. And of course it takes many, many readings to understand the sublime teachings.

There are those that argue initiation is a mystical process where the seed of devotion is implanted in the heart of the disciple and have various scriptures to back up their opinion. It comes down to we believe what we believe for various reasons.

By the way, most Gaudiya Vaishnavas take offense in the term Hinduism, since it is not mentioned in the Vedas and is of European origin.

 

[Prayag Das]

I was always under the impression that initiation rites have traditionally been held in regards to joining a sampradaya/Indic school of thought, not necessarily for someone looking to recite a mantra.

Some devotees claim that without Hari-nama initiation, the mahamantra has no effect. I am not of that opinion.

There is also a second initiation where one receives the sacred thread and gayatri mantra. In ISKCON, one cannot perform Deity worship or cook for the Deity unless they are second initiated. Women can get the mantra but are not offered the sacred thread.

 

[Prayag Das]

Not a Gaudiya, but ... what is initiation? I don't mean that I have never heard of it, but just that perhaps its one of those words that has very different meanings to different people.

In Gaudiya initiation the spiritual master chants one round of Hare Krishna on the disciples beads and gives them a spiritual name. The disciple vows to chant a minimum of 16 rounds per day (takes about 2.5 hours) and refrain from meat-eating (including onions and garlic), no illicit sex ( sex is only allowed once per month to married couples to conceive children) no intoxicants (including coffee, tea, tobacco) and no gambling (including investment speculations).

This is all followed by a traditional fire sacrifice where the disciples throw different grains and fruits into the fire to symbolically destroy their past karma.

 

[Vinayaka]

In my Saiva sampradaya, because it starts a Guru-shishya relationship, it puts further obligatory practises on the sishya, BUT it also puts further obligatory practises on the Guru. He is obliged to take care of you too. For many modern new-age style 'take the money and run' types, this part is just ignored.

 

[Vinayaka]

In Gaudiya initiation the spiritual master chants one round of Hare Krishna on the disciples beads and gives them a spiritual name. The disciple vows to chant a minimum of 16 rounds per day (takes about 2.5 hours) and refrain from meat-eating (including onions and garlic), no illicit sex ( sex is only allowed once per month to married couples to conceive children) no intoxicants (including coffee, tea, tobacco) and no gambling (including investment speculations).

This is all followed by a traditional fire sacrifice where the disciples throw different grains and fruits into the fire to symbolically destroy their past karma.

Thank you for this ... we have the same ritual part, the homa. The vows are also verbalised and signed. Our 4 vows are loyalty to the lineage, tithing, vegetarianism, and ahimsa in the home. The mantra is another and separate initiation, as is the vow to do daily Atmartha puja. So there are some commonalities.

 

[StarryNightshade]

In Gaudiya initiation the spiritual master chants one round of Hare Krishna on the disciples beads and gives them a spiritual name. The disciple vows to chant a minimum of 16 rounds per day (takes about 2.5 hours) and refrain from meat-eating (including onions and garlic), no illicit sex ( sex is only allowed once per month to married couples to conceive children) no intoxicants (including coffee, tea, tobacco) and no gambling (including investment speculations).

This is all followed by a traditional fire sacrifice where the disciples throw different grains and fruits into the fire to symbolically destroy their past karma.

In my Samparadaya, initiation entails the Gayatri mantra, vegetarianism, celibacy for a specified amount of time, and Sandhyavandanam. Once one, if one is so inclined, receives mudras, they will also have shaligram puja to conduct.

Also, like @Vinayaka said, initiation in my samparadaya more or less begins the guru-student relationship. Both of whom have a responsibility to contribute to said relationship.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Prayag das ji

In my opinion, no.

with all due respects , ...prabhu ji an uninitiated devotee a bhakta or bhaktin is an aspiring Vaisnava , ....

For those unacquainted with Gaudiya Vaishnavism, this term is used to define the followers of the spiritual path propagated by Lord Caitanya (1486-1534). He was accepted as an avatar that appeared to teach how to love God purely during the present age of Kali yuga. His followers believe that He exemplifies the love of Radha for Krishna and He widely spread the chanting of the Hare Krishna mahamantra. He is accepted as Krishna Himself.

it is often explained amongst Gaudiya vaisnavas that Chaitanya although he is Sri Krsna himself , he appeares in the mood of Srimati Radhrani thus his golden apperance and the name Gauranga .

The most visible organization that propounds Gaudiya Vaishnavism is ISKCON, founded by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami in 1967. After he entered samadhi (left his body) much controversy on the initiation process has haunted ISKCON as there are many contradictory statements by the sampradaya (disciplic succession) acaryas (teachers by example) and assorted scriptures.

it is not so true as to say that this is a controversy that has haunted ISKCON , it is merely a debate as to whether a group of western devotees were actualy given the instruction to initiate in their own right or whether they were to initiate on behalf of the spiritual master , ....this whole Idea of '' (deciplic sucession )acaryas'' is a little confusing . one does not automaticaly inherit the title of Acharya simply by deciplic sucession , ...one must remember that Srila Prabhupada also had his own godbrothers belonging to the same sampradaya and that it was not an automatic right that his deciples would become initiating gurus in their own right after Srila prabhupadas departure , ...here is where the controversy lay .

Many followers of Gaudiya Vaishnavism believe that it is not possible to spiritually advance unless they are initiated into the mahamantra (Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna, Hare, Hare; Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama, Rama, Hare, Hare) by a bona-fide guru. They cite various scriptures to bolster this belief, such as the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) which quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

what is actualy happening in the initiation process is that the Guru takes on the karma of the deciple , thus the deciple is given a second birth in that he is freed from many negative reactions of his past actions , ...

In this sampradaya, the guru is not just accepted as a teacher. One dedicates his entire life to the order of the spiritual master. One is often asked to donate 50% of one’s income to fund the spiritual master’s activities. One worships the guru with the same respect one offers to God. It is not a casual relationship.

the Guru has in fact renounced his life he becomes the servant of his spiritual master who inturn renounced his life in the service of his spiritual master this sucession goes back to lord Brahma , it is for this reason that one offers offers the same respects to ones spiritual master because he forms a direct link back to the supreme who initialy gave instruction to Brahma .

this 50% , ..or any % ...is a complete noncence and anyone demanding it in my oppinion is Bhogus ! Sri Krsna says offer me a fruit , a leaf , a flower , ....I offer my guru no more than my devotion and my service .

Many scriptures recommend taking shelter of a qualified guru. This is interpreted in many ways. Taking shelter means to some diska, and to other surrendering to the guru’s teachings. The physical presence of the guru is not considered very important; the teachings of the guru are much more significant.

and here the empasis must be on Qualified and authorised , ...not self apointed , ...

and although the physical presence of the Guru is not totaly nececary at all times , it is none the less important without it is too easy for the deciple to go astray or form wrong understandings .

Diksha is a blessing without which one could not carry out the instructions , Guru not only releases one from ones past Karma's but he gives the blessing of the holy name , when the Guru gives his blessing he grants the power by which we might attain true devotion , ...every service the Guru gives is like giving a blessing by which the deciple might progress , thus we say by the Gurus mercy , ...or by Krsna's mercy , we think that we are the dooers but infact the Guru pulls all the strings , he is the enabler , ...

In CC Madhya Lila 15.108 Lord Caitanya states; “One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.”

true even the loWest born can atain love of God throuth Nama Sankirtan , but to do this he has to be surrendered , it is true that one only has to '' vibrate the holy name with his lips.'' but one must do so un a humble state of mind , ...

Clearly, the founder of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and Krishna Himself does not teach that initiation is necessary for a mantra to be effective. He is teaching that the mantra is powerful enough to deliver anyone from material existence.

it is but we are caught in this Maya which is stronger than many beleive it to be , ...we are deeply conditioned by it , therefore we need the Gurus blessing , his mercy to free us from the influencees of the Gunas , ..

No doubt that accepting a pure devotee as spiritual master will accelerate our spiritual advancement, but it is difficult to find and recognize such a self-realized soul. If you have the good fortune to come into contact with one, it would be less intelligent not to surrender. It would also be less intelligent to accept an unqualified devotee as a spiritual master just because we are told that it is essential.

with this I agree entirely . one should not take a spiritual master upon whim or upon anyoneelses say so one must feel certain that this person is genuine in every respect , ....if one has any doubts one is better to remain un initiated and to continue to pray to Krsna for the correct oppertunity to arrise .

I would suggest chanting the names of God as offenselessly as possible and if a guru is needed, Krishna will make arrangements.

jai jai , ....Krsna will certainly make arrangements , ..he will also test us , ...but if one is keen to take a Guru then one should understand the qualities of a true Guru , then when that oppertunity arrises one need not waste time in unsertainty , ....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Poeticus ji

I was always under the impression that initiation rites have traditionally been held in regards to joining a sampradaya/Indic school of thought, not necessarily for someone looking to recite a mantra.

like Samskar's it is a blessing which takes marks the stages of life , .....

 

[Prayag Das]

namaskaram Prayag das ji



with all due respects , ...prabhu ji an uninitiated devotee a bhakta or bhaktin is an aspiring Vaisnava , ....



it is often explained amongst Gaudiya vaisnavas that Chaitanya although he is Sri Krsna himself , he appeares in the mood of Srimati Radhrani thus his golden apperance and the name Gauranga .



it is not so true as to say that this is a controversy that has haunted ISKCON , it is merely a debate as to whether a group of western devotees were actualy given the instruction to initiate in their own right or whether they were to initiate on behalf of the spiritual master , ....this whole Idea of '' (deciplic sucession )acaryas'' is a little confusing . one does not automaticaly inherit the title of Acharya simply by deciplic sucession , ...one must remember that Srila Prabhupada also had his own godbrothers belonging to the same sampradaya and that it was not an automatic right that his deciples would become initiating gurus in their own right after Srila prabhupadas departure , ...here is where the controversy lay .





what is actualy happening in the initiation process is that the Guru takes on the karma of the deciple , thus the deciple is given a second birth in that he is freed from many negative reactions of his past actions , ...



the Guru has in fact renounced his life he becomes the servant of his spiritual master who inturn renounced his life in the service of his spiritual master this sucession goes back to lord Brahma , it is for this reason that one offers offers the same respects to ones spiritual master because he forms a direct link back to the supreme who initialy gave instruction to Brahma .

this 50% , ..or any % ...is a complete noncence and anyone demanding it in my oppinion is Bhogus ! Sri Krsna says offer me a fruit , a leaf , a flower , ....I offer my guru no more than my devotion and my service .



and here the empasis must be on Qualified and authorised , ...not self apointed , ...

and although the physical presence of the Guru is not totaly nececary at all times , it is none the less important without it is too easy for the deciple to go astray or form wrong understandings .

Diksha is a blessing without which one could not carry out the instructions , Guru not only releases one from ones past Karma's but he gives the blessing of the holy name , when the Guru gives his blessing he grants the power by which we might attain true devotion , ...every service the Guru gives is like giving a blessing by which the deciple might progress , thus we say by the Gurus mercy , ...or by Krsna's mercy , we think that we are the dooers but infact the Guru pulls all the strings , he is the enabler , ...




true even the loWest born can atain love of God throuth Nama Sankirtan , but to do this he has to be surrendered , it is true that one only has to '' vibrate the holy name with his lips.'' but one must do so un a humble state of mind , ...



it is but we are caught in this Maya which is stronger than many beleive it to be , ...we are deeply conditioned by it , therefore we need the Gurus blessing , his mercy to free us from the influencees of the Gunas , ..



with this I agree entirely . one should not take a spiritual master upon whim or upon anyoneelses say so one must feel certain that this person is genuine in every respect , ....if one has any doubts one is better to remain un initiated and to continue to pray to Krsna for the correct oppertunity to arrise .



jai jai , ....Krsna will certainly make arrangements , ..he will also test us , ...but if one is keen to take a Guru then one should understand the qualities of a true Guru , then when that oppertunity arrises one need not waste time in unsertainty , ....

Haribol!

Well, a very long response. Perhaps I have more experience with ISKCON than you.

Prabhupada required his householder disciples to donate 50% of their income to ISKCON. You can research the Vedabase on-line, if you haven't already. All Prabhupada's books, conversations and letters are included. I was living in an ISKCON temple in 1973-74 and this was well known.

In my opinion, the diksa issue is a controversy that is still haunting ISKCON. Just last year one of the appointed gurus living in Vrndavana, not one of the original 11 zonal acaryas, left the movement. I think all but 3 of the originals have fallen down. There have been many others, somewhere around 30. The controversy is still raging. The GBC appoints gurus, suspends gurus and then re-instates them. They claim that a pure devotee can fall down, in direct contradiction to Prabhupada's books. Again refer to the Vedabase.

There is also the Ritvik controversy, wherein some devotees believe new initiates can be disciples of Prabhupada. This is going on in great numbers in the Bangalore temple as well as in other places around the world.

Many claim that the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya does not link back to Brahma. The parampara listed in the beginning of the Bhagavad-Gita As It Is is questionable. Bhaktisiddhanta's brother claims he was never initiated by Gaurakishora. Bhaktisiddhanta admitted that he gave himself sannyasa in front of a picture of Gaurakishora. The few pictures of Gaurakishora that we have show him without a sacred thread. How was he able to give Bhaktisiddhanta second initiation if he was not a brahmana himself?

Some say Bhaktivinode did not initiate Bhaktisiddhanta because he did not want the appearance of familial favoritism. Others claim he refused to initiate him because Bhaktisiddhanta criticized Bhaktivinode's guru because he smoked tobacco. Who knows which is true?

So the question is, if the guru is our eternal teacher, what is the difference if he is physically present? Prabhupada wrote that he is present in his instructions. So when we read his books we are associating with a pure devotee.

Most direct disciples of Prabhupada never met him or received instructions from him. They were ordered about by the various temple authorities. In my case, the temple authority was in maya, stealing money and he and his bogus wife were eating meat and even offering shrimp rolls to the Deities. So there is some mystical process where the guru takes on the karma of his disciples even though he doesn't even know their name?

If someone believes in ISKCON, good luck to them. I prefer to keep separate as I have been cheated and mislead by them. I read Prabhupada's books and follow the instructions he sent in a letter to me in 1975. Lord Caitanya says we can be delivered just by chanting the holy name...good enough for me.

I hope you are in good health and advancing in Krishna Consciousness.

Hare Krishna.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Prayag Das ji

Hare Krsna

Well, a very long response. Perhaps I have more experience with ISKCON than you.

Prehaps in years , yes , ...Prehaps in other respects not , ...one will never know from first exchange of words ...I think it is also true to say that ISKCON is not the same world over your experience of ISKCON is true only to time place and Circumstance ....and Yes agreed there is much controvercy , ...but for there to be controvercy there are opposing thoughts , beleifs , actions and habbits , ....

Prabhupada required his householder disciples to donate 50% of their income to ISKCON. You can research the Vedabase on-line, if you haven't already. All Prabhupada's books, conversations and letters are included. I was living in an ISKCON temple in 1973-74 and this was well known.

this is Historical , ....there may have been devotees at one time who were in a position to do this , but this is not a current requirement , I know no person who has sufficient earnings to be able to do this , one donates what one has , even if that is seva alone , ....if one is living in a temple this may be a different matter as many of ones needs are taken care of even ones food ....then one can easily give 50% this then becomes a very different principle , ...everyone then gives proportianatelly according to ones means , this also helps support those on lower incomes , but for those living outside of the temple 50% is not a hard and fast requirement .

In my opinion, the diksa issue is a controversy that is still haunting ISKCON. Just last year one of the appointed gurus living in Vrndavana, not one of the original 11 zonal acaryas, left the movement. I think all but 3 of the originals have fallen down. There have been many others, somewhere around 30. The controversy is still raging. The GBC appoints gurus, suspends gurus and then re-instates them. They claim that a pure devotee can fall down, in direct contradiction to Prabhupada's books. Again refer to the Vedabase.

I am not going to get into politics , ....or distructive arguments , ...but of we are going to give opinions , ...I have heard all the arguments , .....Pure devotees do not fall down !

There is also the Ritvik controversy, wherein some devotees believe new initiates can be disciples of Prabhupada. This is going on in great numbers in the Bangalore temple as well as in other places around the world.

I have refered to the Ritvic veiw already it is not so much a question of whether new initiates can be counted as Prabhupada deciples , to me it is more about the whether or not the original 11 ever posessed the gravity or purity to initiate in their own right , ....the fact that so many have fallen down simply proves this to be so, ....

however there are other Gurus outside if these zonal gurus (Gurus not acharyas ) who do posess the purity and devotion .

Many claim that the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya does not link back to Brahma. .....

there are many claims , ....and many fools who make mischeif , I am not here to discuss this , I am here to discuss what ever helps and inspires one to develop in ones devotional life .

So the question is, if the guru is our eternal teacher, what is the difference if he is physically present? Prabhupada wrote that he is present in his instructions. So when we read his books we are associating with a pure devotee.

physicaly present is best , a book canot give one seva , ...nor can it interceed , direct or correct one when nececary
this was the problem faced by the 11 without Srila Prabupada'd direction , ...

Most direct disciples of Prabhupada never met him or received instructions from him. They were ordered about by the various temple authorities. In my case, the temple authority was in maya, stealing money and he and his bogus wife were eating meat and even offering shrimp rolls to the Deities. So there is some mystical process where the guru takes on the karma of his disciples even though he doesn't even know their name?

....

this is where the close association of godbrothers and other senior devotees is very nececary , ....great trouble has been caused by the unguarded inexperience of some of these who considered themselves to be senior devotees who fell pray to their egos , ....

If someone believes in ISKCON, good luck to them. I prefer to keep separate as I have been cheated and mislead by them. I read Prabhupada's books and follow the instructions he sent in a letter to me in 1975. Lord Caitanya says we can be delivered just by chanting the holy name...good enough for me.

it is the duty of anyone in this liniage to uphold the correct attitude and protect the good name of the pure souls , not allow them to become sullied by the actions of the impure and the envious . if one is in the association of fools then it is correct to walk away , ....but please do not judge all by the actions of some , ....I am sad that you have had bitter experiences at the hands of such fools , ....but please let us forget the politics and from now on let us focus on that which Uplifts , ....let us concentrate on the pure souls and upon pure association , ....

I hope you are in good health and advancing in Krishna Consciousness.

Hare Krishna.

jai jai , thank you Prabhu ji we are happy and well , ....every blessing to you also

Hari Bol

 

[Prayag Das]

namaskaram Prayag Das ji

Hare Krsna



Prehaps in years , yes , ...Prehaps in other respects not , ...one will never know from first exchange of words ...I think it is also true to say that ISKCON is not the same world over your experience of ISKCON is true only to time place and Circumstance ....and Yes agreed there is much controvercy , ...but for there to be controvercy there are opposing thoughts , beleifs , actions and habbits , ....



this is Historical , ....there may have been devotees at one time who were in a position to do this , but this is not a current requirement , I know no person who has sufficient earnings to be able to do this , one donates what one has , even if that is seva alone , ....if one is living in a temple this may be a different matter as many of ones needs are taken care of even ones food ....then one can easily give 50% this then becomes a very different principle , ...everyone then gives proportianatelly according to ones means , this also helps support those on lower incomes , but for those living outside of the temple 50% is not a hard and fast requirement .



I am not going to get into politics , ....or distructive arguments , ...but of we are going to give opinions , ...I have heard all the arguments , .....Pure devotees do not fall down !



I have refered to the Ritvic veiw already it is not so much a question of whether new initiates can be counted as Prabhupada deciples , to me it is more about the whether or not the original 11 ever posessed the gravity or purity to initiate in their own right , ....the fact that so many have fallen down simply proves this to be so, ....

however there are other Gurus outside if these zonal gurus (Gurus not acharyas ) who do posess the purity and devotion .




there are many claims , ....and many fools who make mischeif , I am not here to discuss this , I am here to discuss what ever helps and inspires one to develop in ones devotional life .



physicaly present is best , a book canot give one seva , ...nor can it interceed , direct or correct one when nececary
this was the problem faced by the 11 without Srila Prabupada'd direction , ...

....

this is where the close association of godbrothers and other senior devotees is very nececary , ....great trouble has been caused by the unguarded inexperience of some of these who considered themselves to be senior devotees who fell pray to their egos , ....



it is the duty of anyone in this liniage to uphold the correct attitude and protect the good name of the pure souls , not allow them to become sullied by the actions of the impure and the envious . if one is in the association of fools then it is correct to walk away , ....but please do not judge all by the actions of some , ....I am sad that you have had bitter experiences at the hands of such fools , ....but please let us forget the politics and from now on let us focus on that which Uplifts , ....let us concentrate on the pure souls and upon pure association , ....



jai jai , thank you Prabhu ji we are happy and well , ....every blessing to you also

Hari Bol

Dear Prabhuji:

Thank you for your kind responses.
The point I was trying to make is that, according to the Vaishnava conclusion, an acarya never teaches anything that deviates from shastra.

If some guru is, then he must be rejected. Yes, I admire that you don’t want to get involved in politics, but unfortunately some Vaishnava leaders have mixed politics in with their teachings of bhakti and it is vital that people interested in chanting the mahamantra realize this.

For example, following is an excerpt from the Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya Lila 15.103-15.111

Satyarāja Khān said, "My dear Lord, being a householder and a materialistic man, I do not know the process of advancing in spiritual life. I therefore submit myself unto Your lotus feet and request You to give me orders."

Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "Without cessation continue chanting the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Whenever possible, serve Him and His devotees, the Vaiṣṇavas."


Satyarāja said, "How can I recognize a Vaiṣṇava? Please let me know what a Vaiṣṇava is. What are his common symptoms?"

Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "Whoever chants the holy name of Kṛṣṇa just once is worshipable and is the topmost human being.


"Simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, one is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.



"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [caṇḍāla] can be delivered.

"By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very attracted to Kṛṣṇa, and thus dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened.

Kṛṣṇa is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the caṇḍāla. The holy name of Kṛṣṇa is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Kṛṣṇa. Simply by touching the holy name with one's tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the puraścaryā regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for all these activities. It is self-sufficient.' "

Caitanya Mahāprabhu then finally advised, "One who is chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is understood to be a Vaiṣṇava; therefore you should offer all respects to him."

So Lord Caitanya very clearly states that a Vaishnava is one who is chanting the Hare Krishna mantra. If someone says that initiation is necessary before one is considered a Vaishnava, then this is in direct contradiction to the above. We all believe what we want, but the point is that we have to accept authorized shastra and judge if our guru or godbrothers are truly following the teachings of the parampara. Of course, I agree that the help of a physically present guru is very valuable, but unless and until we can find such a pure devotee, the chanting of the mahamantra is sufficient.

By the way, I do listen on-line to ISKCON lectures now and again. In two recent ones, it is still recommended that 50% of one’s income be donated to the temple (this lecture was from India) and in an initiation lecture (in the USA) the guru said, in so many words, that one cannot advance in Krishna Consciousness unless they receive hari-nama initiation.

The internet is an ocean of misinformation about Krishna Consciousness, so those interested in Vaishnavism need to be very discerning. All Prabhupada’s pre 1978 books are available for free download at Krishna.org.

Hare Krishna to you, I value your association.

 

[Shantanu]

Dear Prabhuji:

Thank you for your kind responses.
The point I was trying to make is that, according to the Vaishnava conclusion, an acarya never teaches anything that deviates from shastra.

If some guru is, then he must be rejected. Yes, I admire that you don’t want to get involved in politics, but unfortunately some Vaishnava leaders have mixed politics in with their teachings of bhakti and it is vital that people interested in chanting the mahamantra realize this.

For example, following is an excerpt from the Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya Lila 15.103-15.111

Satyarāja Khān said, "My dear Lord, being a householder and a materialistic man, I do not know the process of advancing in spiritual life. I therefore submit myself unto Your lotus feet and request You to give me orders."

Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "Without cessation continue chanting the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Whenever possible, serve Him and His devotees, the Vaiṣṇavas."


Satyarāja said, "How can I recognize a Vaiṣṇava? Please let me know what a Vaiṣṇava is. What are his common symptoms?"

Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "Whoever chants the holy name of Kṛṣṇa just once is worshipable and is the topmost human being.


"Simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, one is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.



"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [caṇḍāla] can be delivered.

"By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very attracted to Kṛṣṇa, and thus dormant love for Kṛṣṇa is awakened.

Kṛṣṇa is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the caṇḍāla. The holy name of Kṛṣṇa is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Kṛṣṇa. Simply by touching the holy name with one's tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the puraścaryā regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for all these activities. It is self-sufficient.' "

Caitanya Mahāprabhu then finally advised, "One who is chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra is understood to be a Vaiṣṇava; therefore you should offer all respects to him."

So Lord Caitanya very clearly states that a Vaishnava is one who is chanting the Hare Krishna mantra. If someone says that initiation is necessary before one is considered a Vaishnava, then this is in direct contradiction to the above. We all believe what we want, but the point is that we have to accept authorized shastra and judge if our guru or godbrothers are truly following the teachings of the parampara. Of course, I agree that the help of a physically present guru is very valuable, but unless and until we can find such a pure devotee, the chanting of the mahamantra is sufficient.

By the way, I do listen on-line to ISKCON lectures now and again. In two recent ones, it is still recommended that 50% of one’s income be donated to the temple (this lecture was from India) and in an initiation lecture (in the USA) the guru said, in so many words, that one cannot advance in Krishna Consciousness unless they receive hari-nama initiation.

The internet is an ocean of misinformation about Krishna Consciousness, so those interested in Vaishnavism need to be very discerning. All Prabhupada’s pre 1978 books are available for free download at Krishna.org.

Hare Krishna to you, I value your association.

Do you not know that Sri Krishna is seated in your heart and is available to all who approach Him within themselves?

 

[Prayag Das]

Do you not know that Sri Krishna is seated in your heart and is available to all who approach Him within themselves?

Yes, I agree, but many Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings state that we cannot approach Krishna directly, we need the blessings of the guru, who is the outward manifestation of the caitya guru within the heart.

Even though Krishna was personally teaching Arjuna on the battlefield He advises in verse 4.34

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."

So in my opinion, one has to learn the process of devotional service from a self-realized soul, either in person or through his teachings (books). Srila Prabhupada wrote me a personal letter in 1975, quoted this verse and said that some service must be there. So I try to distribute his books, either on-line or through adult classes I offer at a local high school.

Haribol.

 

[Poeticus]

So in my opinion, one has to learn the process of devotional service from a self-realized soul, either in person or through his teachings (books). Srila Prabhupada wrote me a personal letter in 1975, quoted this verse and said that some service must be there. So I try to distribute his books, either on-line or through adult classes I offer at a local high school.

I would like to contrast this with the question, would you be willing to intellectually defend Hinduism against anti-Dharmic encroachments? I ask this question because a main component of Dharmic service, which can be detailed as an integral part of devotional service processes, is the defense of Dharma. And one of the best ways to engage in such service, especially in today's world, is to intellectually engage in dialogue, or polemics, that highlights such encroachments. In comparison to the service you conduct, in which you distribute Prabhupada's books, the Dharmic service that I, personally, undertake, on the other hand, is the intellectual defense of Dharmic paradigms. Do you see yourself joining other proud Hindus under the flag of Lord Shri Rama and partaking in such a glorious venture? BTW, there is no need to get jealous of my awesome Surya Yantra signature.

 

[Prayag Das]

I would like to contrast this with the question, would you be willing to intellectually defend Hinduism against anti-Dharmic encroachments? I ask this question because a main component of Dharmic service, which can be detailed as an integral part of devotional service processes, is the defense of Dharma. And one of the best ways to engage in such service, especially in today's world, is to intellectually engage in dialogue, or polemics, that highlights such encroachments. In comparison to the service you conduct, in which you distribute Prabhupada's books, the Dharmic service that I, personally, undertake, on the other hand, is the intellectual defense of Dharmic paradigms. Do you see yourself joining other proud Hindus under the flag of Lord Shri Rama and partaking in such a glorious venture? BTW, there is no need to get jealous of my awesome Surya Yantra signature.

If this is a serious invitation, please tell me a bit more.

I am not very interested in debates, but would be honored to defend devotional service by quoting the sastras I believe are bona-fide such as the Bhagavad-Gita, the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Caitanya Caritamrta translations by Srila Prabhupada. I usually quote just the verses as the purports can be confrontational.

There is much misinformation about Vaishnavism on the internet. People concoct their own meanings without reference to authorized scriptures. One of main Vaishnava conclusions is that we are in illusion and not capable of ascertaining the truth by mental speculation. Once we become more purified, then we can see things as they are.

In my opinion, this is the reason that Krishna recommends in Bhagavad-Gita 4.34 that we approach a spiritual master. Even though Krishna, as Supersoul, is within our heart, we cannot make contact with Him until we are purified. The teachings of a self-realized person can help us clean the dust from the mirror of the mind and conquer illusion.

Haribol.

PS, I like your Yantra.