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Is Intellectual Honesty a Religious Virtue?

SkepticX

Member
I'm sorry, SkepticX. My response were in context of other people (Bunyip, Cephus) who did compare it to the fiction of today.
No problem.

I don't quite understand your second sentence... can you rephrase?
The contents [of The Bible] were held by the church and disseminated [to the public] by the church through the clergy.

Just elaborating on how The Bible wasn't promoted when it was compiled and became The Bible, or for a good while after. You'd raised the issue of how a given book is promoted (fiction vs. non-fiction mainly), and I was explaining why that's irrelevant to my question and my point.

I wholeheartedly disagree. The bible offers an immense amount of facts. Customs of the times, names of people, historical events, names of boats, time frame to complete distances, just to name a few.
I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was mostly pointing out that novels contain a number of facts, and modern novels are far more detail oriented than early writings like The Bible, so the fact count really doesn't say anything at all about the veracity of the underlying/overall material.

In addition, my stance is as the following:
Example: If you had a position that evolution is real and then reviewed the facts that support your position, we would accept that as a validation unless we had proof otherwise.
We'd accept it as a good model of reality, and we'd accept it tentatively, and we'd also accept the unknowns within the model.

But no, if someone came up with some facts and extrapolated beyond them, we shouldn't accept those extrapolations as if it's a package deal.

Therefore, I have a position that what is written is historical and the facts provided add support my position. If you have facts that prove otherwise, I am more than willing to entertain it.
See immediately above ... it's not a package deal. The facts about Bronze Age fashion and culture and such don't validate Bronze Age notions of spirits and witches and magic and saviors and such.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The contents [of The Bible] were held by the church and disseminated [to the public] by the church through the clergy.

Just elaborating on how The Bible wasn't promoted when it was compiled and became The Bible, or for a good while after. You'd raised the issue of how a given book is promoted (fiction vs. non-fiction mainly), and I was explaining why that's irrelevant to my question and my point.
I would agree that it didn't become the Bible until later and, as a Bible, it was disseminated by the clergy. It certainly would be a natural progression as the churches expanded throughout the known world to bring consistency and eliminate controversy

It was intimated even before all that happened: Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightiest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Here, as we can see, he had personal understanding from those who were eyewitnesses and desire to put things "in order". As I read it, the "in order" speaks of differences that were beginning to appear that required a "perfect understanding". (Interpretation mine)

That isn't to say that what was written wasn't disseminated or promoted, IMV.

Gal. 1: 1 Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christand God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- 2 and all the brothers with me, To the churches in Galatia:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

My personal view is that letters, such as these, were widely circulated. Time, and the need for continuity, required the joining these foundational letters into one for future generations.


I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I was mostly pointing out that novels contain a number of facts, and modern novels are far more detail oriented than early writings like The Bible, so the fact count really doesn't say anything at all about the veracity of the underlying/overall material.

We'd accept it as a good model of reality, and we'd accept it tentatively, and we'd also accept the unknowns within the model.

But no, if someone came up with some facts and extrapolated beyond them, we shouldn't accept those extrapolations as if it's a package deal.

See immediately above ... it's not a package deal. The facts about Bronze Age fashion and culture and such don't validate Bronze Age notions of spirits and witches and magic and saviors and such.
Agreed. I am not suggesting that people MUST accept it as a package deal. That decision must be weighed by each individual with what information at hand. In the case of your Bronze Age example, at the least we would have to say that there were (by evidence) people who believed in spirits, witches and magic. One would never say that they didn't believe that there were spirits etc. At this point, some people have taken the stance of "There was no Jesus" regardless of what has been found.

At the same time, one could not say that there wasn't any spirits.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I can see you have no formal education in the studies of the NT.

One things all people agree with was that whoever wrote John, also wrote the Epistles of John. 1John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning,which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes,which we have looked upon, and our hands have handle, of the Word of life;" very explicitly says he was a witness to Jesus.

If you would like to dismiss evidence on the basis that you don't believe it then we agree to disagree. Personally, I would trust evidence from those within the timeframe of Jesus than someone who wasn't there and insists on a position with no real evidence.
Don't be childish Ken, you are the one who has not read the bible. The gospels were not wriiten by eye witnesses - it says so in the forward.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Don't be childish Ken, you are the one who has not read the bible. The gospels were not wriiten by eye witnesses - it says so in the forward.
Only in Luke in which he also said "I received it from eyewitnesses" (paraphrased) - meaning there were eye-witnesses. If you would support your statements, it would be appreciated as it would add validity to your position
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Only in Luke in which he also said "I received it from eyewitnesses" (paraphrased) - meaning there were eye-witnesses. If you would support your statements, it would be appreciated as it would add validity to your position
Ken, you are being terribly dishonest - Luke referring to eye witness accounts is not the same as having an eye witness account. Luke was also not written by the apostle Luke. Tell you what - quote one eye witness account of any event in the New Testament, along with who that winess was ok? Just one mate, not a reference to one - but an actual eye witness account. Good luck.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Ken, you are being terribly dishonest - Luke referring to eye witness accounts is not the same as having an eye witness account. Luke was also not written by the apostle Luke. Tell you what - quote one eye witness account of any event in the New Testament, along with who that winess was ok? Just one mate, not a reference to one - but an actual eye witness account. Good luck.
Usually, when people don't have much to refute, they start trying to demean people. It really isn't necessary.

The Canon of Muratori, dated at 170 AD says "The Gospel of St. Luke stands third in order, having been written by St. Luke the physician, the companion of St Paul...' It is, by and large, an accepted author. I would trust its statement.

John 20:
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was notwith them when Jesus came .
25 The other disciples therefore saidunto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe .
26 Andafter eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them:then came Jesus, the doors being shut , and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thyfinger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it intomy side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answeredand said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him,Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed : blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed .

Witnessed by the 11 Apostles.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
It's true that beginning around the 2nd century Christians attributed the gospel of Luke and Acts to Luke, the companion of Paul (who still wouldn't have been an eyewitness anyway), but afaik no modern scholars believe that it was written by that Luke, based in part on inconsistencies with the Pauline corpus which is known to be earlier. There are some links on the wiki
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Usually, when people don't have much to refute, they start trying to demean people. It really isn't necessary.
Indeed, you have been claiming eye witness accounts for events for which there are no eye witness accounts. You have no eye witness qccohnts for me to refute.
The Canon of Muratori, dated at 170 AD says "The Gospel of St. Luke stands third in order, having been written by St. Luke the physician, the companion of St Paul...' It is, by and large, an accepted author. I would trust its statement.

John 20:
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was notwith them when Jesus came .
25 The other disciples therefore saidunto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe .
26 Andafter eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them:then came Jesus, the doors being shut , and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thyfinger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it intomy side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answeredand said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him,Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed : blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed .

Witnessed by the 11 Apostles.
Read your bible Ken, none of the gospels were written by actual apostles - they were composed later by unknown authors. Paul by the way never reports meeting the living Jesus, he did not convert until after the crucifixion and so was not witness to any of the pife of Jesus whatsoever.
 

SkepticX

Member
I would agree that it didn't become the Bible until later and, as a Bible, it was disseminated by the clergy. It certainly would be a natural progression as the churches expanded throughout the known world to bring consistency and eliminate controversy

Remember the subject ... the context ... you raised how THfRO is promotes as an issue that you suggested let The Bible off the hook as far as whether the facts it contains lend it more credibility. I'm still sticking with the original context of the issues I've been raising, but they seem to be shifting post-by-post for you. That's not gonna work--not really a conversation, more a series of disjointed conversation excerpts. Got to maintain context in order to discuss an idea over more than a single post.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Indeed, you have been claiming eye witness accounts for events for which there are no eye witness accounts. You have no eye witness qccohnts for me to refute.
You saying so doesn't make it so.

Read your bible Ken, none of the gospels were written by actual apostles - they were composed later by unknown authors.
Your saying so doesn't make it so. I have given you empirical and verifiable evidence... you have given me none.

Paul by the way never reports meeting the living Jesus, he did not convert until after the crucifixion and so was not witness to any of the pife of Jesus whatsoever.
Depends on what you call living. If there are angels, are they living? If there is an afterlife, are they living?

Paul believed Jesus was still living:

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed , he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, whypersecutest thou me?
5 And he said , Who art thou , Lord? And the Lord said , I am Jesus whom thou persecutest : it is hard for thee to kickagainst the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said , Lord, whatwilt thou have me to do ? And the Lord said unto him, Arise , and go intothe city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do .
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man,neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Remember the subject ... the context ... you raised how THfRO is promotes as an issue that you suggested let The Bible off the hook as far as whether the facts it contains lend it more credibility. I'm still sticking with the original context of the issues I've been raising, but they seem to be shifting post-by-post for you. That's not gonna work--not really a conversation, more a series of disjointed conversation excerpts. Got to maintain context in order to discuss an idea over more than a single post.
The subject matter happens to be "Is Intellectual Honesty a Religious Virtue". That is where I started. Other people began dealing with other subjects to which I replied. If my posts seems to shift, it would be because I am answering shifting points presented by posters that have nothing to do with the thread-line subject matter.

If you would like to stay on the subject matter, please address questions and I will be happy to stay on point

And I have no idea what THfRO stands for. :)
 
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Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
How relevant is a concept like "intellectual honesty" to a thing like religion?

The concept is appropriate to apply to academia where the goal is to have an impartial or more objective understanding of something. Applying the concept outside of academia is problematic, and something I generally find to be inappropriate. The concept of "intellectual honesty" has little bearing on questions of personal value, meaningfulness, and relationships; it can also get in the way of expressions of these things. I value "intellectual honesty" in its appropriate place, and do not value it when it sticks its nose in places where it does not belong.

Are you seriously suggesting that people outside of academia have no use for intellectual honesty? Frankly that strikes me as the most naive thing I've heard in quite some time.
 

SkepticX

Member
The subject matter happens to be "Is Intellectual Honesty a Religious Virtue".

And other related and dependent issues have arisen during the discussion of intellectual honesty, no?

For example, the comments regarding The Hunt for Red October as related to what the presence of facts in a given volume tell us about the volume's accuracy and veracity.

If you would like to stay on the subject matter, please address questions and I will be happy to stay on point

And I have no idea what THfRO stands for. :)

No matter.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Are you seriously suggesting that people outside of academia have no use for intellectual honesty?

No. I'm pointing out that "intellectual honesty," like any paradigm of thought, may or may not be relevant or appropriate for a specific context or issue. Or are you seriously suggesting that it makes sense to apply "intellectual honesty" to, say, celebrating things we value or the telling of a good story?
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Do any of the world's religions explicitly uphold intellectual honesty as a virtue? If so, please quote where they do that, or explain how and in what manner they do that. Also, why they do that? That is, what value or values do they see in intellectual honesty.

Intellectual dishonesty = deception. In Christianity it is something from Satan.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Ken, you are being terribly dishonest - Luke referring to eye witness accounts is not the same as having an eye witness account. Luke was also not written by the apostle Luke. Tell you what - quote one eye witness account of any event in the New Testament, along with who that winess was ok? Just one mate, not a reference to one - but an actual eye witness account. Good luck.

It's why I kind of gave up talking to a whole swath of theists around here, they haven't the capacity to be honest or critical of their religious beliefs. If every expert on the planet came out and said the Bible was complete nonsense, which most of them have already, they'd refuse to believe it, because God.

It's a waste of time trying to reason with the inherently unreasonable.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
You saying so doesn't make it so.


Your saying so doesn't make it so. I have given you empirical and verifiable evidence... you have given me none.


Depends on what you call living. If there are angels, are they living? If there is an afterlife, are they living?

Paul believed Jesus was still living:
Ken, you clearly missed Sunday school - you prove the OP by displaying a stunning absence of intellectual honesty. Paul had a vision of Jesus AFTER the crucifixion - he can not possibly have been an eyewitness - and never even claims to be.
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed , he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, whypersecutest thou me?
5 And he said , Who art thou , Lord? And the Lord said , I am Jesus whom thou persecutest : it is hard for thee to kickagainst the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said , Lord, whatwilt thou have me to do ? And the Lord said unto him, Arise , and go intothe city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do .
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
He SAW NO MAN Ken, so how exaclty can he be an eye witness buddy? HE DID NOT SEE JESUS.
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man,neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
It's why I kind of gave up talking to a whole swath of theists around here, they haven't the capacity to be honest or critical of their religious beliefs. If every expert on the planet came out and said the Bible was complete nonsense, which most of them have already, they'd refuse to believe it, because God.

It's a waste of time trying to reason with the inherently unreasonable.
R. L. Stevenson quipped that you can not reason a man out of a position they weren't reasoned into in the first place.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It's why I kind of gave up talking to a whole swath of theists around here, they haven't the capacity to be honest or critical of their religious beliefs. If every expert on the planet came out and said the Bible was complete nonsense, which most of them have already, they'd refuse to believe it, because God.

It's a waste of time trying to reason with the inherently unreasonable.
I have found that when people begin to tear down those who oppose them, it is because they don't have any empirical and verifiable points to sustain their own position.

Then, they find another who will join the choir so they can high-five each other.
 
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