Is Ishwar the Same as Atman?

[Satyamavejayanti]

Is Ishwar the Same as Atman? What are your views.

I dont think Ishwar to be the same as Atman, they are separate.

 

[Maija]

Ishvara, - controller, God, or Lord.
Atman - self ...

Ātman is the first principle[1], the true self of an individual beyond identification with phenomena, the essence of an individual.

per Wiki..

Are they the same? I don't believe them to be the same..
Not to be nitpicky-because at first I want to say "maybe,"... :sad:
But, then I think about the definition of the word "same" I know, nitpicky...and I have to say they are not same...

SAME:
Being the very one; identical
or Conforming in every detail: according to the same rules as before.

Good question, OP!

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Ishvara, - controller, God, or Lord.
Atman - self ... per Wiki..

Are they the same? I don't believe them to be the same..
Not to be nitpicky-because at first I want to say "maybe,"... :sad:
But, then I think about the definition of the word "same" I know, nitpicky...and I have to say they are not same...

Good question, OP!

Can you please expand as to why you dont think they are the SAME?

Apart from just the meaning of Ishwar and Atman, Why would they not be the Same or identical?

 

[Maija]

Can you please expand as to why you dont think they are the SAME?

Apart from just the meaning of Ishwar and Atman, Why would they not be the Same or identical?

I think that our our nature is vastly different from God, the controller. We, are not even remotely in control of our nature, we suffer from greed, lust, ego, and other selfish qualities.

Despite at our most inner most core, wanting nothing more than to be close and in touch with this divine nature and having very much that potential - we are not same.

Maybe, arguably more than any other thing created, we have that touch of the divine within us and so we might want to say that we are one with the divine, but I think this is different than being the same.

As I explained, I think our qualities are too different, us- always striving to stay in balance but struggling due to certain weaknesses and our physical needs/requirements we are so different than the formless God..

These are just my current thoughts.

 

[Andal]

I believe atman to be of the same substance as Ishvara so in that respect atman is Ishvara. Ishvara is much more though than the individual atman and they are different in that atman and Ishvara are in relationship with each other.

Aum Hari Aum

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

I think that our our nature is vastly different from God, the controller. We, are not even remotely in control of our nature, we suffer from greed, lust, ego, and other selfish qualities.

Despite at our most inner most core, wanting nothing more than to be close and in touch with this divine nature and having very much that potential - we are not same.

Maybe, arguably more than any other thing created, we have that touch of the divine within us and so we might want to say that we are one with the divine, but I think this is different than being the same.

As I explained, I think our qualities are too different, us- always striving to stay in balance but struggling due to certain weaknesses and our physical needs/requirements we are so different than the formless God..

These are just my current thoughts.

I would fully agree with you there, i think Ishwar pervades our Atman but is not identical to our Atman, and that is because of the attributes of Brahman are not the same as for our Atman.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

I believe atman to be of the same substance as Ishvara so in that respect atman is Ishvara. Ishvara is much more though than the individual atman and they are different in that atman and Ishvara are in relationship with each other.

Aum Hari Aum

Thanks for the reply,

What do you mean by substance?

i would think if our relationship is different then it would constitute separation from one another.

OM TATH SATH

 

[chinu]

Is Ishwar the Same as Atman? What are your views.

I dont think Ishwar to be the same as Atman, they are separate.

Ishwar is like a sea, and atman is like a drop, Yes they are seprate but they are same too..

 

[En'me]

Ishvara, the controller, created the world and entered it. (Taittiriya Upanishad 2.6.1)

Atman is the self, which is actualy always Brahman, unrealized.

And (Nirguna) Brahman is the substraum of even Ishvara (Saguna Brahman).

In that sense, Atman is Ishvara, since Ishvara is nothing but (Nirguna) Brahman. But under the spell of Maya or the power of Prakriti, where the Jiva perceives the self as Jiva and not Atman, Saguna Brahman is indeed different.

 

[Madhuri]

I've always seen it as Ishwara/Brahman/Paramatma = Macrocosm (God/Self)
Atma = microcosm (individual/self)

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Ishwara means controller. All of us are controllers with a limited span of control. All of us are small Ishwaras. Small controllers. Devtās or demigods, who control the movement of the sun, moon, air, water, rain etc. are also Ishwaras, but with a greater controlling power.

However, the 'Controller of all Controllers' or the Supreme Controller is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is why He is referred to as Param-Ishwara.

Param = Supreme or Absolute
Ishwara = Controller

We all have a tendency to control because it is present in the Supreme Lord. Our source.

The creator of the universe - Lord Bramha prays in the following way:

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam​

īśvaraḥ — the controller; paramaḥ — supreme; kṛṣṇaḥ — Lord Kṛṣṇa; sat — comprising eternal existence; cit — absolute knowledge; ānanda — and absolute bliss; vigrahaḥ — whose form; anādiḥ — without beginning; ādiḥ — the origin; govindaḥ — Lord Govinda; sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam — the cause of all causes.

Kṛṣṇa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Controller (Godhead). He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes. [B.S. 5.1]

Ātman = Soul.

You, me, he, she ... all are souls. Ātma.

The soul of all souls is the Param-Ātma. Supreme Soul.

Param-Ātma feature of the Supreme Lord represents 'smaller than the smallest' aspect of Supreme Lord.

The magnitude of soul is described as one ten-thousandth the size of the tip of the hair:

The Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (5.9) confirms this:

bālāgra-śata-bhāgasya
śatadhā kalpitasya ca
bhāgo jīvaḥ vijñeyaḥ
sa cānantyāya kalpate​

"When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul."

Supreme Lord, as the soul of all souls - Super-Soul, is present even within the heart of this each and every infinitesimal atomic particle - ātma. This is His smaller than the smallest feature. Thus, He is referred to as the Supreme Soul. Param-Ātma.

 

[Shântoham]

Is Ishwar the Same as Atman? What are your views.

I dont think Ishwar to be the same as Atman, they are separate.

Namaskāram

It depends on your understanding. If by Īśvara you mean God and by Ātmā you mean the soul – than they are separate. But if by Ātmā you mean the all-pervading subject-I – Āpnoti sarvam vyapnoti iti ātmā – than that which is all-perveding cannot be separate from anything. That which is all-pervading can only be the essential truth of everything. Therefore Ātmā is – according to this understanding – the essential truth of Īśvara (macrocosm) and Jīva (microcosm). From the standpoint of their personal attributes Jīva and Īśvara are different – one is God and the other is a limited individual – but from the standpoint of their essential nature they are one and the same. The same way as the wave and the ocean are different but essentially they are one water.

Pranāms

 

[Vrindavana Das]

Ātma, in dimension is one ten thousandth the size of tip of hair. This is confirmed by Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (5.9).

Again, in the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad (3.1.9) the measurement of the atomic spirit soul is further explained:

eṣo 'ṇur ātmā cetasā veditavyo
yasmin prāṇaḥ pañcadhā saḿviveśa
prāṇaiś cittaḿ sarvam otaḿ prajānāḿ
yasmin viśuddhe vibhavaty eṣa ātmā​

"The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air (prāṇa, apāna, vyāna, samāna and udāna), is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."

It is this atomic soul, which is referred to as 'all pervading' in the scriptures because there are infinite or countless souls. Innumerable such spiritual sparks or ātmā/atomic particles are spread all over the infinite material and spiritual creations.

Even within our practical experience, we can see that there are countless micro-organisms in a small sample of earth, stale water, air etc. What to speak of a farm, a city, a nation, a continent, the whole planet, a solar-system, a galaxy or a universe. There are such innumerable universes. Both material and spiritual. Pervading all of these material and spiritual creations, are infinite such atomic sparks - Ātma.

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya
śatāḿśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ
jīvaḥ sūkṣma-svarūpo 'yaḿ
sańkhyātīto hi cit-kaṇaḥ​

"There are innumerable particles of spiritual atoms, which are measured as one ten-thousandth of the upper portion of the hair."[Cc. Madya 19.140]

:namaste

 

[atanu]

Is Ishwar the Same as Atman? What are your views.

I dont think Ishwar to be the same as Atman, they are separate.

I agree with Shantoham. Atman appears in three states of sleep, dream and waking and also as Turya, which is the cessation of the phenomenal world. Mandukya upanishad terms the Purusha of the deep sleep as Sarvesvara but the Turya (the fullness of Atman) is transcendental.

Similarly:

Ahamaatmaa gudaakesha sarvabhootaashayasthitah;
Ahamaadishcha madhyam cha bhootaanaamanta eva cha.

20. I am the Self, O Gudakesha, seated in the hearts of all beings! I am the beginning, the middle and also the end of all beings.

 

[Vrindavana Das]

aham atma gudakesa
sarva-bhutasaya-sthitah
aham adis ca madhyam ca
bhutanam anta eva ca​

I am the Supersoul, O Arjuna, seated in the hearts of all living entities. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all beings. [B.G. 15.20]

Here, Supreme Lord - Krishna says that He is situated in the hearts and is the ātmā of all living entities.

A 'living entity' itself means soul - ātmā.

Therefore, what Krṣṇa is saying here is that He is the soul (ātm&#257 of the living entities (ātm&#257. This makes Him the ātmā of all ātmās. Soul of all souls. The Supreme Soul. As the Super-Soul, He is present inside even the heart of this infinitesimal atomic soul, as confirmed above. This is His 'smaller than the smallest' feature. Param-Atmā.

:namaste

 

[Maija]

Namaskāram

It depends on your understanding. If by Īśvara you mean God and by Ātmā you mean the soul – than they are separate. But if by Ātmā you mean the all-pervading subject-I – Āpnoti sarvam vyapnoti iti ātmā – than that which is all-perveding cannot be separate from anything. That which is all-pervading can only be the essential truth of everything. Therefore Ātmā is – according to this understanding – the essential truth of Īśvara (macrocosm) and Jīva (microcosm). From the standpoint of their personal attributes Jīva and Īśvara are different – one is God and the other is a limited individual – but from the standpoint of their essential nature they are one and the same. The same way as the wave and the ocean are different but essentially they are one water.

Pranāms

Okay. you have a wonderful way with words, I agree whole heartedly.

 

[Maya3]

I think it is the same.

Maya

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

To me Ishwar and Atman are not the same, i do understand the waves of the ocean or the drop in the ocean analogy, but when it comes to Ishwar and Atman i dont think it applies.

I do think the Atman is Eternal hence un-created, but exist separate to the Ishwar, because of the nature of the Atman like ignorance and Avidya, which can never apply to Ishwar, who is omniscient.

Ishwar also does not perform any Karma, Ishwar is the controller of Karma.

Ishwar also is free from birth and death, but not the Atman who must do Karma and is looking for release from birth and death.

Ishwar is all loving, Atman has hatred due to ignorance and bad Karma.

Ishwar does not require external help with anything, while Atman is depended on Prakriti, other Atman and Ishwar.

They are also similar in respect of the attribute of eternity, but that is about the only similarity i can think of.

 

[atanu]

To me Ishwar and Atman are not the same, i do understand the waves of the ocean or the drop in the ocean analogy, but when it comes to Ishwar and Atman i dont think it applies.
--.

You are correct. As said earlier, atman exists as jivatman and paramatman, and also as advaita shivo atman, as Turiya.

Any one atman, among many others will never become Ishwara, who is special Purusha from without beginning.

Yet, the true reality of atman, which is the advaita shivo atman, encompasses Ishwara.

 

[Shântoham]

To me Ishwar and Atman are not the same...

Namaskāram


This much was established in your first post – but since this is your thread – maybe you should be a bit more specific and help us understanding where all this is going. According to your understanding the essential nature of Ātmā and Īśvara is it the same or is it different? The essential nature of Ātmā and Īśvara what is made of? What is the relationship between Ātmā and Īśvara? What is the ultimate goal of human life? From where do you derive your understanding? Intuition? Personal opinion? The Scriptures?

i do understand the waves of the ocean or the drop in the ocean analogy, but when it comes to Ishwar and Atman i dont think it applies.

If you do indeed understand the analogy of wave, ocean, and water – don’t forget the water – you would not say that it does not apply.


Pranāms