Is Islam going to eclipse Christianity?

[F0uad]

Good then you will realize how much better Holland was and truly miss it.

Stop being a kid and grow up will you?

Actually no, I still view all muslims as human beings first. Not as people of the book, or muslims first or kafirs. I also said Sufi islam is beautiful, but it is always attacked by suicide bombers. And NO, stonings don't only happen in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Stonings have happened in Iran, in Iraq, Jordan and even Lebanon! They are sanctioned by the Government in Iran. Have you ever seen a stoning? Watch a movie, called Stoning of Soraya M. It'll give you a good idea on how powerful of a 'deterrent' it is.

Always attacked by suicide bombers do you know how silly you sound, suicide bombers happen generally in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan not turkey. So it happened on a place where there was no Sharia great that shows my point. Your ignorance is really something special i said, Iran does not follow the Real Sharia. Wow if you keep repeating yourself i am going to ignore you.

My religion may have a past, but it's nothing compared to yours. And even if it was, it has changed and evolved. Just like Judaism and Christianity. I won't sit back and claim that it's perfect.

Are you saying that Muslims are uneducated and the rest of the world is superior? Where did i claim that the Islamic history was perfect you are repeating yourself over and over.. Go troll somewhere else and just stop these insults already.

 

[Starsoul]

This is not true, non muslims have to pay jizya and many times the laws are against them. This is exactly the case in Iran, where every law is against non muslims.

jizya is a tax, like all taxes that muslims or ALL people all over the world still pay, where ever they live, whats your point? should non-muslims in muslim lands be exempt from paying taxes for their safety? how so?

I read Islamic History from historical books, I don't specifically find books written by some anti muslim author. Saudi and Iran both apply sharia. What is the true sharia?

wrong information, Saudia, and iran and the rest of the muslim countries are merely slaves of the super powers buying their so called freedom and shabby development from them in return of cheap favors and leverages to exist 'quietly & peacefully' , you just have not read any history if you claim to say what you just said.

Okay that's fine and sharia may have a lot of great things in it. But it's flaws are not made up and they are horrendous.

I don't know how to answer that statement really when I also find it astonishingly horrendous to be preferred to be eaten by vultures when i die..a zoroastrian ethic?

 

[MD]

jizya is a tax, like all taxes that muslims or ALL people all over the world still pay, where ever they live, whats your point? should non-muslims in muslim lands be exempt from paying taxes for their safety? how so?

No it's a special extra tax that non muslims have to pay. Not to mention that all the laws are pro islam, inheritance laws, marriage laws. Everything. Oh and of course the anti blasphemy laws, which target minorities again.

wrong information, Saudia, and iran and the rest of the muslim countries are merely slaves of the super powers buying their so called freedom and shabby development from them in return of cheap favors and leverages to exist 'quietly & peacefully' , you just have not read any history if you claim to say what you just said.

Iran's a slave of which super power? This is the problem, instead of taking responsibility for your actions you blame it on some conspiracy. Fail.

I don't know how to answer that statement really when I also find it astonishingly horrendous to be preferred to be eaten by vultures when i die..a zoroastrian ethic?

Ohhh such a flaw, dead people being eaten by vultures. That was pretty weak. Anyways not all Zoroastrians have their death ceremony that way. Atleast we don't condone stoning people to death, killing homosexuals and killing apostates.

 

[MD]

Always attacked by suicide bombers do you know how silly you sound, suicide bombers happen generally in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan not turkey. So it happened on a place where there was no Sharia great that shows my point. Your ignorance is really something special i said, Iran does not follow the Real Sharia. Wow if you keep repeating yourself i am going to ignore you.

No it happens in places where Sharia is implemented, anyways you seem to have a problem with English so I'm just going to stop replying to you.

Are you saying that Muslims are uneducated and the rest of the world is superior? Where did i claim that the Islamic history was perfect you are repeating yourself over and over.. Go troll somewhere else and just stop these insults already.

No, i'm saying that mainstream islam has not adapted to it's times. Some versions of Islam have like sufism, but mainstream islam still has a backwards mentality.

 

[F0uad]

No it happens in places where Sharia is implemented, anyways you seem to have a problem with English so I'm just going to stop replying to you.

I never seen somebody being stoned in Saudi what was official done or even in Iran only by rogue groups or villagers.

No, i'm saying that mainstream islam has not adapted to it's times. Some versions of Islam have like sufism, but mainstream islam still has a backwards mentality.

Thanks for insulting over 1,7Billion Muslims who are Sunnis, Salfi's and Shias i am pretty sure you wouldn't be making friends soon with Muslims on this forum, you should ask your self if Muslims have a backward mentality then how come there are so many Western People who are Muslims even among celerities, politicians, scientist, doctors and many great-thinkers how come Qatar is one of the richest countries in the world and the list continues. Anyway ill stop responding to you since you dislike Muslims and the explanations of Sharia given.

Things you should think about:

1. Do i really know islam better then muslims?
2. Do i really know the history of the Caliphate and how it enriched people with riches and wisdom?
3. Do i really know Sharia and how it should be implemented?
4. Am i a not generalizing muslims when i say they have a backward mentality and maybe insulting them?
5. How are Islamic countries doing in there economy?
6. Maybe i should ask before claiming something first?
7. Maybe i should first look into my own religious history before judging someone's else?
8. What has Religious history to do with its religion?
9. What if i was nicer to F0uad he could explain what positions he takes and share hes knowlodge about islam?
10. Ill try to be nice to Muslims when discussing so that we both can understand each other?

 

[MD]

I never seen somebody being stoned in Saudi what was official done or even in Iran only by rogue groups or villagers.


Thanks for insulting over 1,5Billion Muslims who are Sunnis and Salfi's i am pretty sure you wouldn't be making friends soon with Muslims on this forum, you should ask your self if Muslims have a backward mentality then how come there are so many Western People who are Muslims even among celerities, politicians, scientist, doctors and many great-thinkers. Anyway ill stop responding to you since you sound like a 12year old who hates Muslims.

You can continue to live with your own sense of ignorance but stoning in Iran is a reality. I know more about Iran than you ever will. And I don't care about making friends with people, I care more about the truth. Sufism and Ahmadis are the only forms of islam which are in tune with the modern world and are peaceful. Salafis are probably the most intolerant people that exist, but I would put them in the same category as fanatic shias.

There are sunnis who are also modern but they have let go of a lot of mainstream islamic values. This is the truth. I'm not 12 and I have spent a good deal of my life around Islam. Most westerners who convert are just lost and weak people with no sense of identity or direction. And most westerners are so inhibited by political correctness that they won't ever speak out against flaws in Islam.

Most doctors and scientists who are muslim have again let go of a lot of mainstream islamic teachings and held on to only the good stuff. Mainstream Islam does have a lot of good stuff too. But it has quite a bit of bad stuff.

 

[F0uad]

This will be my last respond to you.

No it's a special extra tax that non muslims have to pay. Not to mention that all the laws are pro islam, inheritance laws, marriage laws. Everything. Oh and of course the anti blasphemy laws, which target minorities again.

Your mixing things.

The ''extra'' tax is only in time of war and for supporting the army of the country since all Muslims need to participate in these wars and other religions cannot. Inheritance and marriage laws are only for the Muslims if other religions wants to have those they can follow the Sharia or make up there own law. Anti blasphemous law also implies for muslims.

Iran's a slave of which super power? This is the problem, instead of taking responsibility for your actions you blame it on some conspiracy. Fail.

Maybe of Russia and China and Saudi of America, Iran and Saudi both hate each other. America controls the west and most of the Middle-east heck all the previous dictators were in-placed by the West. If America didn't topple the government of Iran in the 80's there would be a more liberal government see the irony?

Ohhh such a flaw, dead people being eaten by vultures. That was pretty weak. Anyways not all Zoroastrians have their death ceremony that way. Atleast we don't condone stoning people to death, killing homosexuals and killing apostates.

Ah but the Majority of Sharia Scholars do and you did condemn it.. see how you make no sense. Pointing your fingers at someone is childish please stop doing it so people can actually treat you as a adult.


Ps: i hope you will look into what i have said earlier with a sincere open mind of understanding.

 

[MD]

This will be my last respond to you.

You keep saying that yet you keep on responding

Your mixing things.

The ''extra'' tax is only in time of war and for supporting the army of the country since all Muslims need to participate in these wars and other religions cannot. Inheritance and marriage laws are only for the Muslims if other religions wants to have those they can follow the Sharia or make up there own law. Anti blasphemous law also implies for muslims.

NO, the extra tax was paid by religious minorities all the time, whether it be Zoroastrians in Iran or Hindus in India. The inheritance law in Iran states that if a family has 4 kids and all are non muslim and one converts to Islam, the muslim gets all the estate and inheritance no questions asked. And no other religions can't make up their own laws, they are thoroughly subjugated by the powers that be. And the anti blasphemy law was applied to a christian lady in Pakistan for supposedly saying things against Islam.

Maybe of Russia and China and Saudi of America, Iran and Saudi both hate each other. America controls the west and most of the Middle-east heck all the previous dictators were in-placed by the West. If America didn't topple the government of Iran in the 80's there would be a more liberal government see the irony?

Huh, America toppled the government of Iran in the 80s? That's news to me...
Iran needs Russia and China to keep America off it's ***. Stop making excuses for that sad government and all the other sad govts in the region.

Ah but the Majority of Sharia Scholars do and you did condemn it.. see how you make no sense. Pointing your fingers at someone is childish please stop doing it so people can actually treat you as a adult.

This sentence made absolutely zero sense. You can sugar all the stuff as much as you want, it doesn't hide the truth. Stop living in your delusional world please.

 

[F0uad]

You keep saying that yet you keep on responding

I think i really have nothing to do better right now. So sorry for not fulfilling my promise

NO, the extra tax was paid by religious minorities all the time, whether it be Zoroastrians in Iran or Hindus in India. The inheritance law in Iran states that if a family has 4 kids and all are non muslim and one converts to Islam, the muslim gets all the estate and inheritance no questions asked. And no other religions can't make up their own laws, they are thoroughly subjugated by the powers that be. And the anti blasphemy law was applied to a christian lady in Pakistan for supposedly saying things against Islam.

Maybe you didn't know but since the Caliphate it was always in need of soldiers and arms to defend itself from outside forces such as the Christian Armies and others. Again your quoting Iran for the sixth time Iran is not upholding a real Sharia. Your argument goes as follow: A bad thing happened therefore its bad. Don't you see the same problem implies to any religion even yours?

I have already told you that a Anti-Blasphemous law is for muslims also they cannot blasphemy other religions publicly, i also told you that under the caliphate Jews, Christians and other religions were given there own Courts with there own judge's, if wanted.

Huh, America toppled the government of Iran in the 80s? That's news to me...
Iran needs Russia and China to keep America off it's ***. Stop making excuses for that sad government and all the other sad govts in the region.

I agree its a sad government however the dictators were brought there in power by the west and they stated in power there because of the west. I am not making excuses for anything the Dictators who were empowered by the west have made the countries poor look at Libya, Egypt, Syra, Iraq and there are more examples.

If you really knew that much more then me about Iran you would know that in 1979 the CIA overthrew the current government who were chosen in a democratic way back then, i actually know this of Ron Paul all credit goes to him

Here is more detailed information

This sentence made absolutely zero sense. You can sugar all the stuff as much as you want, it doesn't hide the truth. Stop living in your delusional world please.

This makes no sense, you are ignoring what i am saying it looks to me that you are just trying to throw anything at Islam to make a case. If you want it or not Umar who was a companion and a great Khalifaa actually helped the Zoatarisn or however its written. The laws he implemented are still being implemented in the west by non-muslims.

 

[MD]

I think i really have nothing to do better right now. So sorry for not fulfilling my promise

I must say I am quite impressed with the fact that you haven't gotten angry. Most other people I have had such debates with in my life have gotten really mad.

Maybe you didn't know but since the Caliphate it was always in need of soldiers and arms to defend itself from outside forces such as the Christian Armies and others. Again your quoting Iran for the sixth time Iran is not upholding a real Sharia. Your argument goes as follow: A bad thing happened therefore its bad. Don't you see the same problem implies to any religion even yours?

Okay, I have done more reading into this caliphate. It wasn't so bad towards the Zoroastrians, atleast compared to the shia Safavids and Qajars who came later and were absolutely fanatical.

I have already told you that a Anti-Blasphemous law is for muslims also they cannot blasphemy other religions publicly, i also told you that under the caliphate Jews, Christians and other religions were given there own Courts with there own judge's, if wanted.

Maybe in a true caliphate or wtv, but when the anti-blasphemy laws were enacted in Pakistan Christians were targeted.

I agree its a sad government however the dictators were brought there in power by the west and they stated in power there because of the west. I am not making excuses for anything the Dictators who were empowered by the west have made the countries poor look at Libya, Egypt, Syra, Iraq and there are more examples.

No Fouad,the west did not bring in the ayatollahs. The CIA toppled Mossadegh, who was a democratically elected prime minister in 1953. Then they brought in the Shah, who was a corrupt dictator but not that bad. There were protests and then Khomeini (aka the devil) came. I feel for the middle eastern people as I said I view them as human beings first, but they have to stop blaming the west for everything. Egypt and Libya have tried and are trying. Iraq is getting better, although the sunni-shia thing is still there in big effect. Syria is a wasteland though.

This makes no sense, you are ignoring what i am saying it looks to me that you are just trying to throw anything at Islam to make a case. If you want it or not Umar who was a companion and a great Khalifaa actually helped the Zoatarisn or however its written. The laws he implemented are still being implemented in the west by non-muslims.

Yes there was persecution under the original caliphs but it was minor compared to the shias later on. I apologize for that.

Anyways I am going back to the science and religion forum, that's more my expertise. Good night Fouad.

 

[F0uad]

I must say I am quite impressed with the fact that you haven't gotten angry. Most other people I have had such debates with in my life have gotten really mad.

I actually was at an point, i have to admit.

Okay, I have done more reading into this caliphate. It wasn't so bad towards the Zoroastrians, atleast compared to the shia Safavids and Qajars who came later and were absolutely fanatical.

I agree the Shia's were also bad in North-Africa and Morocco.

Maybe in a true caliphate or wtv, but when the anti-blasphemy laws were enacted in Pakistan Christians were targeted.

I agree Pakistan is far from being a developed country let alone have some sincere leaders.

No Fouad,the west did not bring in the ayatollahs. The CIA toppled Mossadegh, who was a democratically elected prime minister in 1953. Then they brought in the Shah, who was a corrupt dictator but not that bad. There were protests and then Khomeini (aka the devil) came. I feel for the middle eastern people as I said I view them as human beings first, but they have to stop blaming the west for everything. Egypt and Libya have tried and are trying. Iraq is getting better, although the sunni-shia thing is still there in big effect. Syria is a wasteland though.

I wasn't talking about the Ayatollah my friend i was talking about the Shah. The Mossadegh was more liberal then the Ayatollah if the CIA and MI6 didn't overthrew him the current government would probably have a more liberal view. Do you see the problem whenever the West involves in Eastern politics or uses its foreign policy it always gets worse and its back-fired. I almost never uses the west as a argument but when we are talking about the dictators who are in power then we have to.

Yes there was persecution under the original caliphs but it was minor compared to the shias later on. I apologize for that.

Umar(ra) made some radical changes but yes there were minior accidents there is no hiding of that and i also said it was not perfect but in comparison with neighbouring countries or even with the secular west its still a improvement (in my opinion)

Anyways I am going back to the science and religion forum, that's more my expertise. Good night Fouad.

Ok finally we had a more friendly discussion, have fun there and good night.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I have read a couple of pages as i said before and i explained he describes extremism not a Caliphate and i also said he didn't understand Islam so how is there any credibility. Don't you think he had a agenda while writing that.. I mean common.. He writes military fictions books and then a opportunity comes along he writes one about a Caliphate.

If you want information on how a Caliphate looks like wouldn't you ask a Muslim?

You are so missing the point. What makes you think this book is supposed to describe a historical Caliphate? It is fiction. You know, make believe. In fact, the book is less about Islam and more about Europe being weak and the US becoming a Fascist state. You are correct that the Caliphate in the book is extremist, so? Are you saying that it is impossible for the Taliban or Al Qaeda to create an extremist Caliphate? Why?

This book shows Europe as being weak and ineffectual. It shows the US as a religious dictatorship. I don't have a problem exploring those possibilities but you seem to have a problem with Islam shown in any way other than a perfect, loving, caring and compassionate religion. I know that Islam is capable of being such, all religions are. But all religions are also capable of violence and hatred. Just because you attack anyone who says Islam is capable of such doesn't change the facts.

As for myself I have lived in the Caliphate. I grew up in North Africa, Abu Dhabi and Saudi Arabia. I grew up respecting Islam and I have many Muslim friends. You are correct that to know what a Caliphate is, look to history. But we're not talking about history, we are talking about the future. The Book Caliphate shows a future in which all the bad guys win and the weak are enslaved. If you think that can't happen, then I suggest you take your own advice, and look to the history books.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If so, what changes is that going to mean for humanity? ... What would a majority Islamic world mean?

There really should be a term - a metric, a derivative of some sort - for the number of posts it takes for an author to move from disingenuous rhetorical question to bigoted tirade.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

There really should be a term - a metric, a derivative of some sort - for the number of posts it takes for an author to move from disingenuous rhetorical question to bigoted tirade.

I apologize if you felt that was my intent. I really did intend it as just an innocent question.

 

[F0uad]

If so, what changes is that going to mean for humanity? ... What would a majority Islamic world mean?

I can't really look into the further so i would assume that nothing changes and in a way i would say that Muslims are already in a majority but that's for a other thread.

You are so missing the point. What makes you think this book is supposed to describe a historical Caliphate? It is fiction. You know, make believe. In fact, the book is less about Islam and more about Europe being weak and the US becoming a Fascist state. You are correct that the Caliphate in the book is extremist, so? Are you saying that it is impossible for the Taliban or Al Qaeda to create an extremist Caliphate? Why?

This book shows Europe as being weak and ineffectual. It shows the US as a religious dictatorship. I don't have a problem exploring those possibilities but you seem to have a problem with Islam shown in any way other than a perfect, loving, caring and compassionate religion. I know that Islam is capable of being such, all religions are. But all religions are also capable of violence and hatred. Just because you attack anyone who says Islam is capable of such doesn't change the facts.

As for myself I have lived in the Caliphate. I grew up in North Africa, Abu Dhabi and Saudi Arabia. I grew up respecting Islam and I have many Muslim friends. You are correct that to know what a Caliphate is, look to history. But we're not talking about history, we are talking about the future. The Book Caliphate shows a future in which all the bad guys win and the weak are enslaved. If you think that can't happen, then I suggest you take your own advice, and look to the history books.

There has no been Caliphate since the Ottoman empire so i am not sure why you said that North-Africa and Saudia are in one, i am from Morocco they don't even have Islamic court-rooms let alone Sharia.

I agree with everything you said but how is it different from a secular or a christian state, also you have to keep in mind that a Caliphate is a political idea that upholds a democratic ideas its not based on a monarchy like for example in Saudi or Morocco Sharia actually forbids it.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

There has no been Caliphate since the Ottoman empire so i am not sure why you said that North-Africa and Saudia are in one, i am from Morocco they don't even have Islamic court-rooms let alone Sharia.

I was pointing out that I am familiar with the concept because I have lived in Islamic countries. I know they are not considered an actual Caliphate. If my use of the term in this fashion is confusing I apologize. I was in Algeria from 77 to 79, age 11-13.

I agree with everything you said but how is it different from a secular or a christian state, also you have to keep in mind that a Caliphate is a political idea that upholds a democratic ideas its not based on a monarchy like for example in Saudi or Morocco Sharia actually forbids it.

I have no problem with that. Consider this. The United States is a republic. So are many other countries that are nothing more than dictatorships. So is a republic a representative democracy or is it a dictatorship? So why should a Caliphate only be a democratic implementation of Sharia law?

But all of this has nothing to do with the OP. The OP asked if Islam might one day eclipse Christianity. The book I suggested shows a future in which extremist Islam has taken over Europe and the Religious Right has taken over the United States. It shows a world in which militant Islam and fundamentalist Christians are at war. Sure, its a worst case scenario but it addresses the OP. Plus, its a good read.

 

[F0uad]

I was pointing out that I am familiar with the concept because I have lived in Islamic countries. I know they are not considered an actual Caliphate. If my use of the term in this fashion is confusing I apologize. I was in Algeria from 77 to 79, age 11-13.

No problem.

I have no problem with that. Consider this. The United States is a republic. So are many other countries that are nothing more than dictatorships. So is a republic a representative democracy or is it a dictatorship? So why should a Caliphate only be a democratic implementation of Sharia law?

Actually its vice versa the Sharia calls out for a Caliphate the law tells us to have a Caliphate. I wouldn't say its a dictatorship fully except when the people who can be chosen are one and the same for example Romney and Obama . The whole implemntation of Sharia should be based on a democratic ''Vote'' you cannot have a majority who is against it.

But all of this has nothing to do with the OP. The OP asked if Islam might one day eclipse Christianity. The book I suggested shows a future in which extremist Islam has taken over Europe and the Religious Right has taken over the United States. It shows a world in which militant Islam and fundamentalist Christians are at war. Sure, its a worst case scenario but it addresses the OP. Plus, its a good read.

I agree it has nothing to do with this, but what if Nationalism keeps growing in Europe aren't we just waiting for a WW2? I have read some pages of the book i know what it does but anything that is ''extreme'' is bad may it be religious or not. I don't see how it addresses the OP since the Question is more asked in a harmoniously way.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I don't see how it addresses the OP since the Question is more asked in a harmoniously way.

Because harmony is not always the way things work out. When considering the future, both the best and worst case scenarios should always be outlined in detail. Reality will fall somewhere in the middle, but how will you know what that is if you don't look at both?

 

[Gharib]

Shahz, that's one messed up view that you have about Islam.

I wonder where you got that "knowledge" from.

I am always puzzled by many non-Muslims. When we usually speaks of a crime, every thinks that we are some backward and ignorant people who don't have a justice system and think that we just punish people without a trial. While your "civilized" country gives people the chance to defend themselves while we don't.

That's quite an ignorant and backward view coming from people who are supposedly "civilized" and "educated".