Is Islam Responsible for the Charlie Hebdo Murders?

[Nietzsche]

That's anachronistic. Both St Paul and Mohammed genuinely believed they had communication with an intermediary of their deity. Such things were acceptable to the knowledge base of the time. They are not acceptable to our knowledge base; however "loon" would not be descriptive. See 'Schizotypal Personality'. The tens of thousands who witnessed and continue to witness things at Medjugorje in Bosnia-Herzogovina are a modern example. That tens of thousands of others confirm the witness of the individual gives him or her the affirmation, within their belief system, to ignore the witness of the tens of millions who didn't witness the sun dancing in the sky. It's a common psychological experience; they might be mistaken of the explanation of facts but they are not "loons" as in suffering some major psychiatric disorder.

I do not give a single **** as to whether or not they would've been seen as insane when they were alive. We know more about the human condition now than the world of Paul and Mohammed could've ever dreamt. We know better now. If they were both being honest, then they were either prophets or insane(I'm banking on this one if I'm honest). If they weren't, they're just Model-A34521 Subtype-C Exploiter of the Ignorant. A type of person we've had for as long as we've been a species, and will be with us until we're all dead.

 

[Deadtroopers]

I think that both as an ideology and as a culture Islam is responsible for the Charlie Hebdo murders (and the murders of others who had nothing to do with the cartoons). On the gripping hand Islam is also responsible as a religion. There is no getting away from the fact that Islam's holy book is a very shouty, stabby text. There is no getting around the fact that the violent Meccan surahs are held to supercede the more ostensibly peaceful Medina surahs. There is no getting around the fact Muslims have a dispensation to lie about these things when living in the House of War. Contrast what goes out to the world in Anglophone Islamic media against the vile filth that spews from Arabic broadcast media. This is not the first eruption of puritanical fanaticism to maraud out of the desert. They have happened with monotonous regularity since the creed's inception. However; we must accept that the other Abrahamic faiths had similar histories. On a trajectory of evolution Islam might be at a similar point to Christendom when it entered it's centuries long Wars of Religion phase. That was due to the sudden reacquaintance with Classical culture and philosophy at the Renaissance. A similar collision has been taking place for the last couple of centuries in the Middle East. The Ikwhan and the original Saudi state were the first stirrings of this. In that case the Osmanlis had to go in and kill the extremists. This formula will have to be repeated until Islam generates it's own "Reformation" or all the shouty, stabby types are dead I'm afraid. Woe betide if they should acquire and use WMD, as is the express desire of many of the Islamist factions; then I can see the House of Submission ending in fire. At the moment for us in the West this is a minor nuisance; however regrettable and obscene these murders. If it should become an existential threat... the gloves will come off and it won't be pretty.
Some have argued that the cartoonists should have expected this and that the murderers had no choice. This is another of those disconnects that infest their thinking; we should fear their Kalashnikovs. I would remind them that we are slow to ire, but none can top the West for industrial scale killing when the need arises

 

[gsa]

I think that both as an ideology and as a culture Islam is responsible for the Charlie Hebdo murders (and the murders of others who had nothing to do with the cartoons). On the gripping hand Islam is also responsible as a religion. There is no getting away from the fact that Islam's holy book is a very shouty, stabby text. There is no getting around the fact that the violent Meccan surahs are held to supercede the more ostensibly peaceful Medina surahs. There is no getting around the fact Muslims have a dispensation to lie about these things when living in the House of War. Contrast what goes out to the world in Anglophone Islamic media against the vile filth that spews from Arabic broadcast media. This is not the first eruption of puritanical fanaticism to maraud out of the desert. They have happened with monotonous regularity since the creed's inception. However; we must accept that the other Abrahamic faiths had similar histories. On a trajectory of evolution Islam might be at a similar point to Christendom when it entered it's centuries long Wars of Religion phase. That was due to the sudden reacquaintance with Classical culture and philosophy at the Renaissance. A similar collision has been taking place for the last couple of centuries in the Middle East. The Ikwhan and the original Saudi state were the first stirrings of this. In that case the Osmanlis had to go in and kill the extremists. This formula will have to be repeated until Islam generates it's own "Reformation" or all the shouty, stabby types are dead I'm afraid. Woe betide if they should acquire and use WMD, as is the express desire of many of the Islamist factions; then I can see the House of Submission ending in fire. At the moment for us in the West this is a minor nuisance; however regrettable and obscene these murders. If it should become an existential threat... the gloves will come off and it won't be pretty.
Some have argued that the cartoonists should have expected this and that the murderers had no choice. This is another of those disconnects that infest their thinking; we should fear their Kalashnikovs. I would remind them that we are slow to ire, but none can top the West for industrial scale killing when the need arises

I think that this is an extremely important point that the Islamists don't really appreciate: any use of weapons of mass destruction by Islamist terrorists in the West will result in a completely disproportionate attack and, in all probability, the end of Western tolerance for this type of religious fundamentalism. And I mean the end of tolerance, as in, the European states in particular will probably act as they have historically. Unfortunately, it would also mean at least a temporary end to civil liberties and the freedom that we have grown accustomed to. Which is why it is infinitely preferable that we avoid this kind of bloodshed and disaster and tragedy by reforming the religion to make Islamism deviant.

 

[Deadtroopers]

I do not give a single **** as to whether or not they would've been seen as insane when they were alive. We know more about the human condition now than the world of Paul and Mohammed could've ever dreamt. We know better now. If they were both being honest, then they were either prophets or insane(I'm banking on this one if I'm honest). If they weren't, they're just Model-A34521 Subtype-C Exploiter of the Ignorant. A type of person we've had for as long as we've been a species, and will be with us until we're all dead.

My point is that they would most probably not be considered "insane" on even present metrics. Since hardly anyone at the time were any wiser, can they be called "exploiters of ignorance"? Possibly but possibly is not probably and modern science can account for how they came by their genuine, if mistaken, beliefs. I cannot speak for Mohammed; all we have is later attestations for what happened to him; but Paul genuinely believed what he experienced was from his god: that is clear from his writings. In the light of his own milieu that leaves Paul as a genuine, if mistaken, prophet.

 

[Nietzsche]

My point is that they would most probably not be considered "insane" on even present metrics. Since hardly anyone at the time were any wiser, can they be called "exploiters of ignorance"? Possibly but possibly is not probably and modern science can account for how they came by their genuine, if mistaken, beliefs. I cannot speak for Mohammed; all we have is later attestations for what happened to him; but Paul genuinely believed what he experienced was from his god: that is clear from his writings. In the light of his own milieu that leaves Paul as a genuine, if mistaken, prophet.

I'll grant that. But I will not cease calling him a Loon, unless you're willing to look over things like racism from before one century or another. As someone passionate about history, I can respect that. But we're going to use this logic on all labels, not just ones who happen to have been successful.

 

[Deadtroopers]

I think that this is an extremely important point that the Islamists don't really appreciate: any use of weapons of mass destruction by Islamist terrorists in the West will result in a completely disproportionate attack and, in all probability, the end of Western tolerance for this type of religious fundamentalism. And I mean the end of tolerance, as in, the European states in particular will probably act as they have historically. Unfortunately, it would also mean at least a temporary end to civil liberties and the freedom that we have grown accustomed to. Which is why it is infinitely preferable that we avoid this kind of bloodshed and disaster and tragedy by reforming the religion to make Islamism deviant.

I see hope in Iran; which from an English perspective looks very similar to the puritanical, fundamentalist English Commonwealth that emerged from the English Civil War. What happened here was ameliorated by not having a land border with France and the none existence of the kind of power projection the USA can indulge. The Sunni states will probably lag this by decades at least; we forget the Reformation was a North-western European event that didn't take hold in South West Europe until much later and arguably has never happened in Orthodoxy.

 

[Nietzsche]

I see hope in Iran; which from an English perspective looks very similar to the puritanical, fundamentalist English Commonwealth that emerged from the English Civil War. What happened here was ameliorated by not having a land border with France and the none existence of the kind of power projection the USA can indulge. The Sunni states will probably lag this by decades at least; we forget the Reformation was a North-western European event that didn't take hold in South West Europe until much later and arguably has never happened in Orthodoxy.

I am growing to quite like you.

 

[jeager106]

Odd that muslims claim to be peace loving yet muslims lead the modern world in murders commited in the name of
islam or ANY other religion or ALL today's religions combined.
Yet when people attempt to even suggest these murders are commited in the name of islam, muslims recoil
in horror then blame the acts of murder on:
the influence of the west
the existance of Israel
muslim tribal disputes
disputes between muslim sects
Arab governments
and (drum roll please) SATAN did it!!!!!!!
It seems muslims very much need a good public relations expert. It speaks poorly of any group when members
of that group are televised partying in the streets at the mere mention of a Rabbi being chopped to pieces in a Synagogue.
We've seen video's of muslims blowing themselve into oblivion while committing murder.
It makes no difference if the victims were athiests or muslims or Jews or alien visitors from another galaxy.
The "reward" for dying while killing for Allah is the promise of instant transportation to heaven where a host of virgin women
are waiting to service the dead murder. One wonders what awaits female muslims that die while murdering for Allah????
I have no doubt that if memebers of islam get hold of an atomic bomb they WILL detonate the thing in a western country.
Does anyone believe for an instant that ISIS is fighting in the name of islam?????? ISIS is called the Islamic State for some
reason? Perhaps it's really satan in disguise?
Yes indeed CH was a target of muslims killing for their perception that the most holy prophet was insulted.
Period.
Lest anyone see me as being anti M.E. religion let me just add this:
I live near a business owned and run by a married Palestinian couple. I frequent that place and spend moner there often.
That couple as befriended me, knowing I'm disabled and getting older. They help me a great deal knowing I'm a Christain.
They don't care that I am Christian. They see me as a man that served his nation and got crippled over it.
They see me first and foremost as a PERSON. I see them the same way.
I feel comfortable asking them about islam and they share freely with me.
They don't like these murders anymore than most do.
I truely like this couple, have been invited to the mosque as a guest. I might even accept and go with them.
This pair of humans have legitimate gripes about the way their people have been treated and I see that issue
in a whole different light.
These people should represent ALL muslims.

 

[Deadtroopers]

I'll grant that. But I will not cease calling him a Loon, unless you're willing to look over things like racism from before one century or another. As someone passionate about history, I can respect that. But we're going to use this logic on all labels, not just ones who happen to have been successful.

If you examine how religions arise, what I am saying is a banality. It accounts for the facts and we do not have to be pejorative about it. I do share your exasperation though; I have used "Loon" as a descriptive at least twice in other threads on here. I was pulled up about it on FTB and on reflection can see why it might be offensive to some people; I won't be put off using it as a colloquialism but emphasise it is understood as such. However I'll restate it is redundant and unnecessary; especially as regards to millennia ago.

 

[Deadtroopers]

I am growing to quite like you.

Don't get your hopes up: I am very good at foot-in-mouth!

 

[Deadtroopers]

Odd that muslims claim to be peace loving yet muslims lead the modern world in murders commited in the name of
islam or ANY other religion or ALL today's religions combined.
Yet when people attempt to even suggest these murders are commited in the name of islam, muslims recoil
in horror then blame the acts of murder on:
the influence of the west
the existance of Israel
muslim tribal disputes
disputes between muslim sects
Arab governments
and (drum roll please) SATAN did it!!!!!!!
It seems muslims very much need a good public relations expert. It speaks poorly of any group when members
of that group are televised partying in the streets at the mere mention of a Rabbi being chopped to pieces in a Synagogue.
We've seen video's of muslims blowing themselve into oblivion while committing murder.
It makes no difference if the victims were athiests or muslims or Jews or alien visitors from another galaxy.
The "reward" for dying while killing for Allah is the promise of instant transportation to heaven where a host of virgin women
are waiting to service the dead murder. One wonders what awaits female muslims that die while murdering for Allah????
I have no doubt that if memebers of islam get hold of an atomic bomb they WILL detonate the thing in a western country.
Does anyone believe for an instant that ISIS is fighting in the name of islam?????? ISIS is called the Islamic State for some
reason? Perhaps it's really satan in disguise?
Yes indeed CH was a target of muslims killing for their perception that the most holy prophet was insulted.
Period.
Lest anyone see me as being anti M.E. religion let me just add this:
I live near a business owned and run by a married Palestinian couple. I frequent that place and spend moner there often.
That couple as befriended me, knowing I'm disabled and getting older. They help me a great deal knowing I'm a Christain.
They don't care that I am Christian. They see me as a man that served his nation and got crippled over it.
They see me first and foremost as a PERSON. I see them the same way.
I feel comfortable asking them about islam and they share freely with me.
They don't like these murders anymore than most do.
I truely like this couple, have been invited to the mosque as a guest. I might even accept and go with them.
This pair of humans have legitimate gripes about the way their people have been treated and I see that issue
in a whole different light.
These people should represent ALL muslims.

Guess what? Christendom indulged in similar denialism in earlier times; and some strands of Christianity haven't got out of the habit. Remind me how close the USA came to succumbing to a swivel-eyed Christian heresy/idolatry only recently. The GOP is arguably still in it's grip.

 

[Nietzsche]

Don't get your hopes up: I am very good at foot-in-mouth!

It is rare to find someone who A, knows about the ins & outs of the English Civil War, and how strangely applicable it is to the Ousting of the Shah. I respect that more than I know how to say.

 

[Deadtroopers]

It is rare to find someone who A, knows about the ins & outs of the English Civil War, and how strangely applicable it is to the Ousting of the Shah. I respect that more than I know how to say.

I know a little bit about a lot and have a shed full of books on most topics I'll spout off about. The Civil War has been a fitful interest that I last looked at decades ago; so I'll be at a loss on most of the intricacies I'm afraid. Some of it stuck however.

 

[Bodhitharta]

In your police example, one's disagreement with the law in no way gives them the right to disobey it. By being a citizen of a country, you are entering into a social contract with the government. By staying in a country, you are agreeing to pay taxes, obey the law, respect authority, etc. Your own subjective disagreement doesn't mean a thing. You are free, however, to work to change the law, but this must be done in a certain way. Protests don't nearly do the trick. You need lawyers/lobbyists.

In your robber example, the victims of the murders are still victims of murder. You could argue that they made a stupid decision in risking their lives, but there is nothing immoral about it. All blame rests solely on the one who pulled the trigger, just as with CH. The best you could do is argue that the cartoonists made a poor decision. All immorality rests in the hands of those who killed unjustifiably in cold blood.

In other words, how does the stupidity of the bank robbery victims effect the moral culpability of the murderers?

You are agreeing with me, To a Muslim to be living in this world you are entering into a contract with God. When a person is born into a country they don't enter into anything they are born into their circumstance. You said you couldn't wrap your head around it but i think you don't want to simplify it. It's just like Saudi Arabia, our country calls it an ally but they do more killings (including beheadings) than any terror group and a Charlie Hebdo group would be killed their well within the limits of the law... you just don't like the way it is, does that mean it is wrong?

 

[Bodhitharta]

Bam!!

That is a silly argument if you are the creator of the universe you can do whatever you like, when is the last time you protested the killing of ants and spiders?

 

[Deadtroopers]

It is rare to find someone who A, knows about the ins & outs of the English Civil War, and how strangely applicable it is to the Ousting of the Shah. I respect that more than I know how to say.

If I recall properly; the Puritan Protestant/Shia meme was out and about at the time if you paid attention and I have always been in the habit of applying the lessons of history to the present. We are continually reprising Herodotos and Thucydides. What ever we think is new the Greeks usually got there first, if only in embryo. The Judeans as well; "There is nothing new under the sun" as Qoheleth has it.

 

[Bodhitharta]

Victim blaming I see. The person with the weapon still has the choice to fire or not. The victim is not the one pulling the trigger. Your logic is flawed, I think you just use the word without understanding any method behind the term.

So the police should be full of hot air and empty threats? Is violence ever needed?

 

[Deadtroopers]

You are agreeing with me, To a Muslim to be living in this world you are entering into a contract with God. When a person is born into a country they don't enter into anything they are born into their circumstance. You said you couldn't wrap your head around it but i think you don't want to simplify it. It's just like Saudi Arabia, our country calls it an ally but they do more killings (including beheadings) than any terror group and a Charlie Hebdo group would be killed their well within the limits of the law... you just don't like the way it is, does that mean it is wrong?

Evidence? For extra-judicial killings also please.

 

[Bodhitharta]

Rap lyrics below--------------------------------------------Nas and Damian Marley


Mindless violence
Well let me try to paint it
Here's the 5 steps
In hopes to explain it
One!
Its me and my nation against the world
Two!
Then me and my clan against the nation
Three!
Then me and my fam' against the clan
Four!
Then me and my brother we no hesitation
Uh!
Go against the fam' until they cave in
Five!
Now who's left in this deadly equation?
That's right, it's me against my brother
Then we point a kalashnikov
And kill one another

 

[Deadtroopers]

So the police should be full of hot air and empty threats? Is violence ever needed?

Sometimes it is not only needed but necessary and in some cases incumbent. The present military interventions from the West arise in part from not thumping Hitler and Hirohito before they were in a position to murder millions.