Is it blasphemous to lampoon a prophet?

[oldbadger]

If you remain cryptic, I can only shrug and dismiss the comment.

That's true......... Your point triggered various thoughts within.
I must dig out an old debate or start one.

 

[Father Heathen]

How do you think your country is going to manage if strong Christians should gain high positions, eh?
Stay with problems closer to home, maybe?

Religious tyranny shouldn't be tolerated regardless where it occurs.

Nobody would be drawing them if the French Government had some decent equality legislation and promoted wider understanding of and for more cultures etc. But France........ hey..... !!!

Explain how freedom of speech and expression effects equality. What rights are muslims being denied? Go on.

Btw, there's nothing "decent" about being a doormat. I raise a baguette and tip a beret to France for standing up for their values.

 

[Spirit of Light]

If you happen to live in a secular society, such as France, you may believe that secularism provides a framework for democracy where:
1. There is a separation of state and religion
2. There is freedom to practice one's faith (theist, agnostic or atheist), without harming others, and to change faith if one so wishes.
3. There is equal treatment of faiths and ideologies by the state, so long as a citizen acts within the law.

Does the lampooning and portrayal of Muhammad amount to blasphemy, and is this harmful to Islam/Muslims?

When i converted to Islam i used to get angry at those who ridicule Islam or prophet Muhammad, but my mind have calmed a lot the last month or so. So i realized why non muslims do ridicule or say blasphemy toward our belief. Its because of those few muslims who do evil toward non-believers/non muslims. I get it why Islam has a bad name because of those evil people who harm non-believers/non muslims.

All i can do my self is to do my best to never harm others. No matter how much i want to tell Islam is not evil. It has already been shamed by those who use Islam in the wrong way.

 

[Redemptionsong]

When i converted to Islam i used to get angry at those who ridicule Islam or prophet Muhammad, but my mind have calmed a lot the last month or so. So i realized why non muslims do ridicule or say blasphemy toward our belief. Its because of those few muslims who do evil toward non-believers/non muslims. I get it why Islam has a bad name because of those evil people who harm non-believers/non muslims.

All i can do my self is to do my best to never harm others. No matter how much i want to tell Islam is not evil. It has already been shamed by those who use Islam in the wrong way.

It's good of you to join the discussion.

How do you feel when a person, such as myself, says that they believe Muhammad was a false prophet? Do you take this as a personal insult? Do you see it as an insult on the Muslim community? Do you think I have the right to voice such sentiments?

 

[Spirit of Light]

It's good of you to join the discussion.

How do you feel when a person, such as myself, says that they believe Muhammad was a false prophet? Do you take this as a personal insult? Do you see it as an insult on the Muslim community? Do you think I have the right to voice such sentiments?

Thank you @Redemptionsong.
No i do not take it as a insult now, i might have done that just a month ago. But my little brake from RF was good for me, learned bout my self, and why i took every negative comment toward my belief so personally, i dont need to take it personally because it is your opinion about Islam, so the feeling of negativity about islam or prophet Muhammad is with you, not within me. Not to say your view or opinions are wrong or bad.
You are right in commenting negativity toward those muslims in France you read about in the news. Those guys are bad for Islam and not doing it right.
But to say all of Islam or all muslims are evil, that to me is not a correct view.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Thank you @Redemptionsong.
No i do not take it as a insult now, i might have done that just a month ago. But my little brake from RF was good for me, learned bout my self, and why i took every negative comment toward my belief so personally, i dont need to take it personally because it is your opinion about Islam, so the feeling of negativity about islam or prophet Muhammad is with you, not within me. Not to say your view or opinions are wrong or bad.
You are right in commenting negativity toward those muslims in France you read about in the news. Those guys are bad for Islam and not doing it right.
But to say all of Islam or all muslims are evil, that to me is not a correct view.

I know many decent, kind, generous Muslims. This is not the issue.

My opinion is expressed with regard to the Qur'an, and with regard to Muhammad as a prophet of God. In other words, I would like to express my views, and give my reasons, why I believe Muhammad was not a true prophet.

Can I expect to do this without there being a backlash from within the Muslim community? My opinion is not intended as an insult, but as a truth claim.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I know many decent, kind, generous Muslims. This is not the issue.

My opinion is expressed with regard to the Qur'an, and with regard to Muhammad as a prophet of God. In other words, I would like to express my views, and give my reasons, why I believe Muhammad was not a true prophet.

Can I expect to do this without there being a backlash from within the Muslim community? My opinion is not intended as an insult, but as a truth claim.

I can not speak for the Muslim community in a whole, only from my own view.
But i do think many muslims would feel upset by to much ridicule toward Islam or Muhammad in general. I think muslims protect the belief in Allah, Qur'an and prophets very strictly

 

[Vinayaka]

If you happen to live in a secular society, such as France, you may believe that secularism provides a framework for democracy where:
1. There is a separation of state and religion
2. There is freedom to practice one's faith (theist, agnostic or atheist), without harming others, and to change faith if one so wishes.
3. There is equal treatment of faiths and ideologies by the state, so long as a citizen acts within the law.

Does the lampooning and portrayal of Muhammad amount to blasphemy, and is this harmful to Islam/Muslims?

Depends on who's defining blasphemy. Blasphemous or not, it's stupid on a couple of levels.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Depends on who's defining blasphemy. Blasphemous or not, it's stupid on a couple of levels.

Muhammad was a man, not God. So if blasphemy is an insult against God, is it still acceptable to be irreverent about Muhammad?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Muhammad was a man, not God. So if blasphemy is an insult against God, is it still acceptable to be irreverent about Muhammad?

A question that arise in my mind is.
If a person do not believe in a prophet like Muhammad or in other spiritual teachers from other religions, example Jesus in Christianity or Sakyamuni in Buddhism, why does the need or want to ridicule those beings or followers of those who chose to follow religious teachings arise?
What benefit is there in blasphemy or ridicule?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I can not speak for the Muslim community in a whole, only from my own view.
But i do think many muslims would feel upset by to much ridicule toward Islam or Muhammad in general. I think muslims protect the belief in Allah, Qur'an and prophets very strictly

I think there's a difference between ridicule and making a truth claim. And I know that some Muslims will protect belief in Allah, the Qur'an and the prophets...but how do you protect these beliefs, which are considered holy, without intimidation or violence?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think there's a difference between ridicule and making a truth claim. And I know that some Muslims will protect belief in Allah, the Qur'an and the prophets...but how do you protect these beliefs, which are considered holy, without intimidation or violence?

For me the teachings are more toward my own spiritual awakening then it is about spreading it to others.
The teachings are meant for those who follow them, not for those who do not want to follow or believe in them.
So even if people ridicule religion maybe its incorrect to blast back at them in anger, and instead try to have a discussion of some topics from the religious teachings. But often it does not lead anywhere.

 

[Redemptionsong]

A question that arise in my mind is.
If a person do not believe in a prophet like Muhammad or in other spiritual teachers from other religions, example Jesus in Christianity or Sakyamuni in Buddhism, why does the need or want to ridicule those beings or followers of those who chose to follow religious teachings arise?
What benefit is there in blasphemy or ridicule?

If you love someone, do you not want to save them from harm? Christians preach salvation through Christ because they believe there is no other Way to be saved. How can you make such an exclusive claim without rejecting all other avenues to God?

 

[Redemptionsong]

For me the teachings are more toward my own spiritual awakening then it is about spreading it to others.
The teachings are meant for those who follow them, not for those who do not want to follow or believe in them.
So even if people ridicule religion maybe its incorrect to blast back at them in anger, and instead try to have a discussion of some topics from the religious teachings. But often it does not lead anywhere.

But spreading your understanding of truth can be both instinctive and obligatory.

How can someone know whether they want to follow your idea of truth unless you explain it to them?

 

[Spirit of Light]

If you love someone, do you not want to save them from harm? Christians preach salvation through Christ because they believe there is no other Way to be saved. How can you make such an exclusive claim without rejecting all other avenues to God?

I do not think they reject everyone else in their teaching but maybe some followers do it by misunderstanding the meaning of the teaching.

In islam too it is said Allah is the only God, but could it mean, Allah is the only god to worship in Islam, but that there is other Gods for other religions? So its not exluding other religions, but to be a muslim Allah is the only God to follow and pray to.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But spreading your understanding of truth can be both instinctive and obligatory.

As long i am careful to say it is my understanding i think its ok to speak about my belief, it means i do not say others are wrong, or that my understanding is the very truth. I have many faults in my beliefs and understandings. My journey has just started

 

[rosends]

They were quite inappropriate imo.

And appropriate in mine. Potayto, potahto

No they are not! They are a MINORITY GROUP in France.

Your analogy had Johnny being alone. The 8.5 million Muslims in France (an eighth of the population) are not alone.

This is what your para looks like, Rosends:- So there you are, joining those bullies on the wall, laughing at Johnny until he breaks, and then you can put him down.
Where I live many 'Johnnies' end up as suicide risks, but you don't want to worry about Johnny because now you can keep on shouting about him.

And you would be excusing Johnny the first time someone laughs at him and he kills the guy instead of telling him that there are other ways of dealing with people who laugh at him. Where I live, we learn that people have the right to have opinions, and being laughed at doesn't justify murder.

Are you really a teacher?

Yes, expecting precision in language is part of my job. Your post wasn't precise. I made two statements ("I have no opinion about what France's duty is. I can only speak to what France's current law is and who has the right to enforce that law in a way that the government condones.") and you said that "it" is trashy.

Surely you can figure out that my point was not about obeying laws, but about the leaders who made them.

So the leaders are trashy? What does that mean?

Do you actually believe that terrorist madmen have gone out killing people in France because they don't like a law?

You are completely lost. People are killing because they see a Frenchman's behavior (which is allowed under French law) as contrary to their own particular law. If I see you break a Jewish law, do I have the right to kill you? I would say not, and you would say yes it seems. I would think one should advocate for changes in the law, not for allowing people who are offended to behead people who follow the law as it stands. If you want a different policy, then there are ways under the law to pursue that. Beheading someone in the meanwhile isn't a proper method.

It's not just Islam that has had its nutter terrorists in the past, you know.

I don't recall saying otherwise.

Nobody went out killing because they didn't like a law or the absence of it.

No, they went out beheading because they put another law ahead of French law.

 

[JerryMyers]

No it won't, if peoples beliefs are protected from criticism science and progress would come to a standstill.

Ridiculous ! Since when science and progress are dependent on what people’s belief ??! And to imply science and progress can only take place if people are disrespectful and insensitive to other people’s belief is a sign of a deprived soul.

Ridiculous, I see no requirement of such acceptance. ETA as the freedom to harm others is not an essential freedom

Nobody is saying freedom to harm should be accepted as an essential freedom….. and no government on earth has ever think of making that as part of the Constitutional Law. But the fact remains if you provoke someone on what they believe, you are bound to get a reaction – it’s as simple as that ! So why provoke in the first place ?? You can challenge someone’s belief if you don’t share the same belief, BUT, you don’t mock or ridicule him, his belief or those whom he loves or holds dearly to - that’s the basic value of a good human character !

 

[oldbadger]

And you would be excusing Johnny the first time someone laughs at him

You hope! You Presume.
Please don't tell me what 'I would do....' you clearly don't have a clue about that.

Yes, expecting precision in language is part of my job.

So your manipulation of my posts wasn't accidental?

You are completely lost. People are killing because they see a Frenchman's behavior (which is allowed under French law) as contrary to their own particular law. If I see you break a Jewish law, do I have the right to kill you? I would say not, and you would say yes it seems.

Again you want to tell me what I would say......... You should have stuck to what I wrote.

No, they went out beheading because they put another law ahead of French law.

You still think that they were thinking of 'law'?

There are many decent Muslims in France. Several million of them, and if the French are so determined to support the publication of disgusting pictures that massively offend Muslims, even showing them to children in middle-schools, and knowing that extreme mental nutcases could react violently....... then I can only hope that the World will see France's idea of 'freedom' for what it is...... an impost.

I think I'm done ....... this just goes round and round....

 

[oldbadger]

Nobody is saying freedom to harm should be accepted as an essential freedom….. and no government on earth has ever think of making that as part of the Constitutional Law. But the fact remains if you provoke someone on what they believe, you are bound to get a reaction – it’s as simple as that ! So why provoke in the first place ?? You can challenge someone’s belief if you don’t share the same belief, BUT, you don’t mock or ridicule him, his belief or those whom he loves or holds dearly to - that’s the basic value of a good human character !

Well said.

A member has written that there are millions of Muslims in France.

Decent peaceful Muslims who have put up with France's carelessness and hatred all their lives. And when a few immigrant extremist head cases carry out insane, terrorist murders you can guess how this will affect the whole Muslim population.

France could have done so much more to reduce these kinds of extremist crimes.