YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I was an English major, @paarsurrey
I have a very good command of the English language.
So, do you have any comment on what I had to say or are you just content playing the teacher?
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Is it delusion of “The God delusion”?
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
I have a very good command of the English language.
So, do you have any comment on what I had to say or are you just content playing the teacher?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I am not major in English, don't claim to be even a minor in it. I told that I am an ordinary man in the street, searching for Truth while I am already on the Highway of Truth, and Truth is endless.
Nevertheless, one is open to give arguments, of course me also.
Regardless, I am nobody's teacher, just a student. "One must be a student from cradle to grave."(Hadith)
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Your grasp of the English language may preclude you from understanding my argument thus far in post 138. By your responses I'm not convinced you are capable of understanding what I am saying as you have shown no indication of possessing a modicum of awareness of the issues involved.
What issues do you have, or not understand, about what I have already written. Show me where there is evidence of superstition and show me the lack of reasoning. Likewise, show me where I have not indicated I am positive.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
About religion his knowledge was shallow.
Regards
We can discuss this, as I have gotten hold of the book.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
For instance he wrote some chapters on Islam but could not quote even a single verse of Quran- the first and the foremost source of guidance of Muslims whatever the denomination.
Regards
He may not have found it necessary to do so at all. Please refer me to the chapter and page number of Hitchen's take on Islam that you consider to be inaccurate and wrong? Regards.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
So, Christopher Hitchens' Criticism of Islam is useless.
Regards
So, you believe that Christians are, from your point of view, not delusional in believing that God has a son?
Ciao
- viole
No it is not. If you believe that any statement or passage that Hitchens write is wrong or mistaken, please provide the chapter and section and we shall discuss. You cannot just proclaim something to be useless and expect others to agree with you unless you put it in for discussion first.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
In his whole book (that includes all relevant chapters about Islam) Hitchens could not quote a single verse of Quran, so from Islam's point of view this book is superfluous and useless.
Regards
There is no need whatsoever to quote the Quran or the Bible or the Gita in order to discuss or criticize the beliefs and practices of Christians, Muslims or Sikhs as long as the criticism does indeed reflect the reality of the practice and belief.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
In other words, it is not at all criticism of Islam, but the present day Muslims as they have gone astray from the Quran/Islam/Muhammad. If the present day Muslims have gone wrong, that does not make Atheism of itself correct.
The same way if the Buddhism people have gone astray from the teachings of Buddha,that does not make Atheism of itself correct.
The same way if the Dharmic people have gone astray from the teachings of Veda and Krishna,that does not make Atheism of itself correct.
The same way if the Zoroastrian people have gone astray from the teachings of the great Zoroaster,that does not make Atheism of itself correct.
The same way if the Judaism people have gone astray from the teachings of Moses,that does not make Atheism of itself correct.
The same way if the Christianity people have gone astray from the teachings of humble Jesus,that does not make Atheism of itself correct.
The same way if the Hellenic people have gone astray from the truthful Socrates ,that does not make Atheism of itself correct.
Others being wrong, of all religious people, does not make Atheism of itself correct.
Why, instead of going deeper in the teachings of these marvelous people, the founders of these great founders of religion, should one become superstitious to favor Atheism and the like.
Sorry, his, Christopher Hitchens', approach is not positive. It is unreasonable, unjustified and incorrect. Please
Please correct me If I am wrong.
Anybody, please
Regards
It is your opinion that they have gone astray, nothing more. An opinion that has very little substance. I would say that it is your view of religion that is shallow and driven not by careful study or reasoning but by presupposition based on the faulty assumptions of your sect of Islam. Most of the actions and behaviors Hitchens criticizes are done by deeply religious people who firmly believe that they are acting according to the established tenets of their faith, and have reasons and justifications for such a stance far stronger than you do for yours.
Finally Hithens book is a criticism of God belief, not a defense and elucidation of atheism. There are plenty of other books that make a positive case for atheistic naturalism based on reason, evidence, experience and science. Your claim that atheism is a superstition is shallow and unfounded.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"according to the established tenets of their faith"
If that would have been the case, then the verses of Quran would have supported them, and accordingly Hitchens would have also quoted them.
Hitchens clearly sides with ignorant Mullahs and the clergy.
Regards
Let us hear then what Hitchen's has said that goes against the Quran and the Hadith. Regards.
And if you do not accept the Hadith, then you are not only going against 99% of all who consider themselves Muslims since the 9th century, but you have absolutely nothing to base your life and actions of your prophet upon. Lets be clear here, you are a minor and heretical sect who, against the strictures of Islam, believe in a prophet after Muhammed. Believe what you will, but your penchant for calling yourself the follower of "true" Islam rings hollow.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"but you have absolutely nothing to base your life and actions of your prophet upon"
Please correct yourself.
All the actions and deeds are done by Muslims because of Sunnah, not because of Hadith. Muslim did all these life actions continuously when there was no Hadith, as it was compiled 250/300 years after Muhammad. Muhammad and his followers always followed Quran and Sunnah, without any gap.
So one is totally wrong. Right? Please
Regards
Sunnah and Hadith are effectively (even if not theoretically) the same thing. regards,
The differences Between “Sunna” and “Hadith” | Qur’anic Studies
In a previous article on The Meaning of “Sunna” in the Qur’an, I explained how this term developed the technical meaning of the way of life of Prophet Muhammad. In an earlier article on The Meaning of “Ḥadīth” in the Qur’an, I discussed that this term developed the specific meaning of reports about the Sunna of the Prophet.
The terms “Sunna” and “Ḥadīth” are often used interchangeably. This use is inaccurate. As I explained, “Sunna” denotes what the Prophet said, did, approved, and disapproved of, explicitly or implicitly. “Ḥadīth,” on the other hand, refers to the reports of such narrations.
Furthermore, while “Ḥadīth” and “Sunna” are used synonymously because the Ḥadīth literature is the main source of the Sunna of the Prophet, it is not its only source. There are two others sources. First, practices of the people of Medina were considered to have come from the Prophet. Medina is the city where the Prophet lived his last ten years, where most legislations of the new religion were revealed in the Qur’an or devised by the Prophet, and where the first three caliphs and most Companions continued to live. The assumption, which was effectively promoted by Mālik bin Anas (93/715-179/796), is that Medinese practice could not have come from other than the Prophet. Even what is attributed to Companions is linked to the Prophet on the assumption that these elite Muslims could have only behaved and legislated in accordance with what they learned from their Master. Malik even rejected ḥadīths that contradicted the established practices of the people of Medina.
The third source of Sunna is the biography of the Prophet or “sīra.” The Prophet’s oldest surviving and most accepted biography is by Ibn Hishām (d. 218/833), which is a freely edited version of Ibn Isḥāq’s (d. 151/768).
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"The terms “Sunna” and “Ḥadīth” are often used interchangeably. This use is inaccurate. As I explained, “Sunna” denotes what the Prophet said, did, approved, and disapproved of, explicitly or implicitly. “Ḥadīth,” on the other hand, refers to the reports of such narrations."
One may like to read the following:
The Muslims have three sources for establishing themselves on Islamic guidance.
1. First, the Holy Quran which is the Book of God than which we have no more conclusive and certain statement. It is the Word of God and is free from all doubt and speculation.
2. Secondly, the practice of the Holy Prophet, which is called Sunnah.We do not regard hadeeth and sunnah as one.
They are distinct, hadeeth is one thing and sunnah is another. By sunnah we mean the practice of the Holy Prophet, to which he adhered and which appeared along with the Holy Quran and will accompany it. In other words, the Holy Quran is the Word of God Almighty and the sunnah is the action of the Holy Prophet, peace be on him.
It has ever been the way of God that the Prophets bring the Word of God for the guidance of people and illustrate it in practice with their conduct so that no doubt should remain in the minds of people with regard to the Divine Word. They act upon it and urge others to do the same.
3. The third source of guidance is hadeeth, by which we mean those traditions which were compiled from the statements of diverse narrators a century and a half after the Holy Prophet.
Now I mention salient features of the three sources of guidance:
• The distinction between sunnah and hadeeth is that sunnah is a continuous practice which was started by the Holy Prophet. It is only next to the Holy Quran in its certainty.
• As the Holy Prophet was commissioned for the propagation of the Quran, he was also commissioned for establishing the sunnah.
• As the Holy Quran is certain so is the continuous sunnah. Both these tasks were performed by the Holy Prophet as his duty. For instance, when the Prayer services were made obligatory, the Holy Prophet illustrated by his action how many rakaas were to be performed in each Prayer service. In the same way, he illustrated the performance of the pilgrimage. He thus established thousands of his companions on his practice.
• The practical illustration which has been continuous among the Muslims is the sunnah.
• On the other hand, the Holy Prophet did not have the hadeeth recorded in his presence nor did he make any arrangement for its compilation.
• Hazrat Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, had collected some ahadeeth and then had them burnt out of greater caution as he himself had not heard them from the Holy Prophet and did not know their reality.
• When the time of the companions of the Holy Prophet had passed some of their successors thought of compiling the ahadeeth and they were compiled.
• There is no doubt that most of the compilers of hadeeth were very pious and righteous. They tested the accuracy of ahadeeth as far as it was possible and tried to steer clear of such of them as in their opinion were manufactured, and they rejected every hadeeth any narrator of which was of doubtful veracity.
• As all this activity was ex post factum, it was no more than conjecture; yet it would be most unfair to say that all ahadeeth are vain and useless and false. So much care was taken in compiling the ahadeeth, and such research and criticism were employed in the task, that they cannot be matched in any other religion. The Jews also had compilations of hadeeth and Jesus was opposed by that sect of the Jews who followed the ahadeeth, but it is not proved that the Jewish compilers of hadeeth had exercised that care in compiling their collections as the Muslim compilers of hadeeth did.
• Nevertheless, it would be a mistake to imagine that till the ahadeeth were compiled, the Muslims were unaware of the details of Prayer services or did not know the proper way of performing the pilgrimage.
• The practical illustrations of the sunnah had taught them all the limits and obligations laid down by Islam.
• It is true, therefore, that even if the ahadeeth, which were collected after a long time, had not been compiled this would not have affected the real teaching of Islam for the Holy Quran and practice had fulfilled this need.
• The ahadeeth only added to that light and Islam became light upon light and the ahadeeth became testimonies for the Quran and sunnah.
• The Quran and sunnah should judge the ahadeeth and those that are not opposed to them should by all means be accepted.
• Hadeeth which is not opposed to the Quran and sunnah, should be accepted and followed.
Quran is a compact book; and is a book of systems. It provides the text and the context of the teachings for which sometimes the Whole book has to be searched, examined and then interpreted.
Hadith does not provide the context of the events properly recorded and hence some people cannot properly use it. It must be interpreted in the context provided by the Quran.
Quran of itself is a complete source and needs nothing to complete it, as against Hadith which has not this peculiarity as it was compiled very later and was never dictated by Muhammad in verbatum.
To sum up we may conclude that Hadith is not an arbiter of the Quran in any case. It is Quran that judges.
Please
Thanks and regards